Keep clear of Norway

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Per, can I ask you a question, how do Norwegian police know the breed of foreign dog? Do they check veterinary passport or they have right to suspect some prohibited breed without making official expertise?
In case of pitbulls and staffordshire terriers, it's hard not to recognize this breed, but CsW could "accidentally" have veterinary passport with "laika" (Siberian hunting dog) or "mix" in place of breed, and it will not be so suspicious.

Hi.

As for which breeds are banned Navarre qouted the complete list of Norwegian banned breeds. Except for Amstaff and CSV they all were banned by 1991 and no individuals from before 1991 will be present here today.

Amstaffs and CSV's imported before the ban are fully legal but the owners have to prove their origin by offical documents like pedigree papers etc.
Of course the owner may fake the papers of the dog, but on suspicion the police may shelter it for further investigation and if in doubt the animal may (not necessarily ) be euthanized. If such attempt of faking the dog's papers is discovered the dog most likely will be put to death,

As Navarre writes the dog might not be killed, but for now no trials has ended without a death penalty.
--
PO

PS. Both the prosecutor and the prosecuted may use experts if they like. Last year a dog was seized on suspicon of beeing a Pitbull mix. The procecuded owner called a Swedish expert who concluded that the dog most likely NOT was a Pitbull mix. The prosecutor overruled the expert and the dog was put to death. The term MOST LIKELY made the difference of life or death and how can one prove the origin of a mix?

[Navarre]

I think that tourists should be made AWARE that their pets could be killed during their holydays in Norway.

[Natalya]

Per, I'm not a lawer, but we live in XXI century, and final word must come from genetic tests, if we talk about official suspicion and trial procedure.
My question was mostly about situation of short stay or transit. In some countries, police strongly believe in written paper with a stamp in such situations.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Per, I'm not a lawer, but we live in XXI century, and final word must come from genetic tests, if we talk about official suspicion and trial procedure.
My question was mostly about situation of short stay or transit. In some countries, police strongly believe in written paper with a stamp in such situations.

Like you I'm no lawyer and know little of genetics but I believe is it not possible above doubts to prove the ancestral heritage of a mix or even a pure bred dog?

As of transit: here is a official document from our Ministry of Justice and Police.

Based on rumours of illegally imported Amstaffs by the use of fake documents the police in one of our counties made a razzia and captured and sheltered some dogs. Their future are told to be quite uncertain.
--
PO

[Natalya]

Breed genetic test is not so precise, as personal genetic identification or nearest relatives identification. Veterinary department of Mars Inc. offers DNA breed test for mixed dog owners with 90% accuracy (it is based on gene statistics, collected from 13000 dogs, as they say). But they say in FAQ:
- Can this test be used by regulatory/animal control officials to determine whether breeds are legislated or banned in a particular community? - The WISDOM Panel™ MX is designed and intended to be used solely to identify the genetic history of a mixed-breed dog and no other purpose is authorized or permitted.
But anyway, if judgment is based on presumption of innocence, prosecutor have to give evidences, that suspicious animal belongs to prohibited breed.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Natalya

But anyway, if judgment is based on presumption of innocence, prosecutor have to give evidences, that suspicious animal belongs to prohibited breed.

Nope On the contrary. Like the Norwegian law on drugs the procecuted bear the responsibility of proving earned money come from other sources than distribution of drugs, the owners of assumed banned dogs or mixes thereof are responsible of proving their dogs are not. Theoretically the authoryties may sit with hands and legs crossed waiting for the evidence provided by the procecuted. And again - if there is a slightest doubt of the heritage of a assumed banned dog or mixes thereof its future life may be disputable.
--
PO

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Per Olav

Nope On the contrary. Like the Norwegian law on drugs the procecuted bear the responsibility of proving earned money come from other sources than distribution of drugs, the owners of assumed banned dogs or mixes thereof are responsible of proving their dogs are not. Theoretically the authoryties may sit with hands and legs crossed waiting for the evidence provided by the procecuted. And again - if there is a slightest doubt of the heritage of a assumed banned dog or mixes thereof its future life may be disputable.
--
PO

Hi Per it is very unfortunate the position of CWS in Norway, but it is not the general public you need to educate on the CWS but the authorities who make the rulings, yes public support will help but after it becomes a long battle they fall to the wayside, i had lots of support in 2001-2003 then it faded away,people lost hope and give up because it was the local government we were taking on, i was left with my wife and 3 good friends to continue our struggle for our CWS, i had to move home many times to protect my dogs from being siezed by authorities, my self and other owners risked going to prison, but we kept on phoneing and writting, in 2004 we had bit of success as we got person from local council out to look at our dogs, we did not tell him what they where, we asked him to go in with every dog, we let him take one for walk and have play about, we then asked him his oppinion and he said they are great, then we told him what they where,,,,,,,he had never heard of them, yet he had the power to remove and destroy all our dogs,,this is typical of local government laws,,, even the top authority DEFRA admitted they had never seen a CWS, when i went onto and got copy of DANGEROUS WILD ANIMAL ACT the CWS and SAARLOOS where listed, when i read all the facts they had on wolfdogs it was 99% about wolfdogs and attacks in USA, it then took over a year to get it across that the CWS was different to the wolfdogs of higher content in USA, in 2006 we got a person from the top department to visit again he seen nothing wrong with our wolfdogs, but kept saying but they are used by the army,, we said so are the GSD,,and many other breeds. IN all everyone who visited had different views in there heads as to what the CWS are and are used for, so we adventually got them all in same frame of mind that they are a wolfdog and that they are domesticated but are not for everyone, just as many other breeds of dogs are not for everyone, it is hard work to draw the ballence and to get the people who count to change there minds and there views on CWS, especially when they have been trained to do a job to remove any animals that they think has wolf content,,,again they are trained,( from photos) as not one single person who visited had every seen a CWS, they had no idea what they where till we told them,,,,, in november 2008 we had a big party the law was changed in u.k. hard work, many phone calls, lots of letters, i even got articles put in dog magazines, i had letters from vets, breeders in Europe, friends who had visited, we just kept up a constant pressure on the authorities, not over the top ,but just a pain in there ass once a week every week, to let them know we where not going away.....it took long time, and i admit many times i felt like just giving up, but when i would go out and see my wolfdogs and have a play, it puts fire back in your heart and makes you more determand to go on. select your team, one writes the letters, one makes the phone calls, one must seek visit from local authority, this can be tricky and we done it on nuteral ground to protect owner and dog, but it paid off, also you have CWS used in advertising, in films, rescue work, dont forget all the dog shows all over the world they can attend and at all levels including world dog show,,, gather every scrap of evidence you can get for you will need it all, and draw a big line between what they bred and own in USA. good luck if we can help contact us.
on a brighter note i tried to up load a pick to the web site but failed... i have trained one of my cws bitchs called IMAN to round up my chickens, photo is on my web site, best regards Paul and Mandy u.k.

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Natalya

if judgment is based on presumption of innocence

No, Natalya, it´s based on state-determinations.

Again: on the official page of Norway everyone can find a passage about the obligation to introduce his dog while entering Norway. If you follow this obligation nothing happens because they will send you and your dog home.

Does everyone here want to avoid state-determinations?

[Rona]

Well, the problem is different in my opinion - much more philosophical. Namely in some states, some authorities and administrators keep forgeting that law has been created to serve people and protect them and not the other way round. People (policemen, judges etc.) are not robots and should apply legal regulations with the understanding of their deep meaning and purpose that stands behind them. Law without a "humane face" and mercy is a total misunderstanding and a mockery of itslef