Picking up puppies at the age of 6 weeks?

[hanninadina]

Originally Posted by Elf

Hi Christian, I know not bad wolfdogs and always asks people when I don't know something (especially Nicole Wilde I consider as one of the very best for wolfdogs), I can tell you 6 weeks is to early (if you need reference about this send me a PM I would send you scientist publications about it), this often leads to hyperactivity trouble (if all is nice with your Myla it's all good, but one cannot expect it's the rule for pups separated the age of 6 weeks for the mother). Wolfdogs the age of 8 weeks have no problem to make strong bond with the owner, and this give 4 more weeks for the owner to make efficient socialisation. All this phase correspond of well know cognitive development.

I have the two books of Nicole Wilde. They are very good and the only ones who describe wolfdog behaviour from an objective side.

If you have publication, I am very interested in these kind of work. I have a lot of. Books are only a handful.

Best socialization is in the new home. Maybe you are right that 8 weeks is enough I often ask myself where is the best point. But if you have adult dogs and young ones at home it would be best solution. My canadian wolfdog was raised up with one month older briard female - french herding dog - and of course Myla with 4 years as her "mother". It was almost perfect if you see now her behaviour.

It is difficult to tell what is the best. It depends on the breeder what work he is doing in the first weeks. And what the new owner is able to do.

Christian

[elf]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Best socialization is in the new home. Maybe you are right that 8 weeks is enough I often ask myself where is the best point. But if you have adult dogs and young ones at home it would be best solution. My canadian wolfdog was raised up with one month older briard female - french herding dog - and of course Myla with 4 years as her "mother". It was almost perfect if you see now her behaviour.

It is difficult to tell what is the best. It depends on the breeder what work he is doing in the first weeks. And what the new owner is able to do.

Christian

Interesting thoughts. Always not easy to determine the "best".
Having other adults dog to teach the pup is very nice, but there is also a drawback for young pup: when a pup is removed from his pack at 6 weeks, he is in the "crucial bonding period", and will bond in the new home with other dog, not you as human being (that's why it's also not recommended to get two pups the same time). So I would say 6 weeks in a new home with other adult dog to teach is not bad, but my opinion not the best.

[elf]

Some more info to be a little more puzzled on what's the best :

"Hi Anthony,

With dogs, 49 days is the average time to leave the breeder. With pure wolves, they normally would be bottle-fed by the person who wanted to bond with them. We're talking really early on here. So it depends how much wolf is in this wolfdog. It'd say the wolfier the animal, the earlier you might want to have it, but if someone was taking a wolfdog really early they need to know how to care for it.

Take care,
Nicole"

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

Some more info to be a little more puzzled on what's the best :

"Hi Anthony,

With dogs, 49 days is the average time to leave the breeder. With pure wolves, they normally would be bottle-fed by the person who wanted to bond with them. We're talking really early on here. So it depends how much wolf is in this wolfdog. It'd say the wolfier the animal, the earlier you might want to have it, but if someone was taking a wolfdog really early they need to know how to care for it.

Take care,
Nicole"

I think 8 weeks is the time for a puppy to go to its new home !!!

And I just wont to add that I think for Nicole a Wolfdog is F2-F4,
And CsV is just a dogbreed...

Best regads / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think 8 weeks is the time for a puppy to go to its new home !!!

And I just wont to add that I think for Nicole a Wolfdog is F2-F4,
And CsV is just a dogbreed...

Best regads / Mikael

It is very common practice to remove an F1-F3/4 in the US from it's mother to bottlefeed at 2-3 weeks. Typically in this case, the mother has a wolfish personality (skittish or shy), which the breeder tries to overcome in the puppies through intense human socialization, so they do not learn shy or fearful behaviors. I'm not certain how much it helps.

In a confident mother (such as the type that should be bred with the CSV...), I don't think this is as much of an issue. Also, puppies learn bite inhibition from chewing on their littermates in the 5-8 week range. Some of the dogs I have worked with (not CSVs) that were removed too early from their mother have been much more likely to chew or nip at people (very hard sometimes) because they never learned when or how hard to play bite from their littermates.

But, I have never worked with very young CSVs, only young wolves and young "other" dogs...maybe it is quite different.

Marcy

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

It is very common practice to remove an F1-F3/4 in the US from it's mother to bottlefeed at 2-3 weeks. Typically in this case, the mother has a wolfish personality (skittish or shy), which the breeder tries to overcome in the puppies through intense human socialization, so they do not learn shy or fearful behaviors. I'm not certain how much it helps.

In a confident mother (such as the type that should be bred with the CSV...), I don't think this is as much of an issue. Also, puppies learn bite inhibition from chewing on their littermates in the 5-8 week range. Some of the dogs I have worked with (not CSVs) that were removed too early from their mother have been much more likely to chew or nip at people (very hard sometimes) because they never learned when or how hard to play bite from their littermates.

But, I have never worked with very young CSVs, only young wolves and young "other" dogs...maybe it is quite different.

Marcy

hi i have read articles on the barbaric practice of removing young wolf cubs from the mother at this age, they do it also with wolf and dog cross or wolfdog cross, the people who do this and say the know about wolves obviously think nothing of the mother wolf, they also obviously have not a true bond with the mother wolf,
but good luck with your first CSV litter i call them baby crocs,,,, snappers,,,, i often have lots of pin holes in my hands but this to me is part of it all and is sign of good character to come from pups,,, regards Pacino

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by elf

Some more info to be a little more puzzled on what's the best :

"Hi Anthony,

With dogs, 49 days is the average time to leave the breeder. With pure wolves, they normally would be bottle-fed by the person who wanted to bond with them. We're talking really early on here. So it depends how much wolf is in this wolfdog. It'd say the wolfier the animal, the earlier you might want to have it, but if someone was taking a wolfdog really early they need to know how to care for it.

Take care,
Nicole"

bottle feed wolf cubs barbaric practice same on breeders who do this to the wolf////////pacino

[elf]

Originally Posted by solowolf

bottle feed wolf cubs barbaric practice same on breeders who do this to the wolf////////pacino

I don't know what's the best for wolves or wolves-hybrid but looking at the US stats of the numbers of these poor animals ending euthanazied or living cages closed, I would say that the best is in the wild far from humans and breeders.

Originally Posted by elf

I don't know what's the best for wolves or wolves-hybrid but looking at the US stats of the numbers of these poor animals ending euthanazied or living cages closed, I would say that the best is in the wild far from humans and breeders.

The practices of taking the pups away from a wolf mother is done by researchers working in conservation efforts, who are working with all captive-bred wolves, and never, ever release these wolves into public ownership. It's not done with pets, it's done with research wolves, and they are taken away and handled at a young age so they can bond with humans. That way, when they are adults, they can be properly handled for things like vaccinations and health checks. Also, in many practices, not all of the pups are removed, 2 are routinely left with the mother so she isn't grief-stricken with loosing all of her pups. However, the pups left with the mother will never be able to be handled by humans, and therefor are not good for research efforts, or for relocating to other research projects to help with genetic diversity.

However, I agree that anyone breeding wolf HYBRIDS, or wolves as PETS, are very irresponsible, and should not be breeding at all, regardless of how long the pups are left with the mother. There is absolutely no need to breed these animals, when 99% of people looking to "buy" one haven't the slightest clue as to the care these wild animals actually need. The only instances where wolves should be bred is for research purposes on reservations, not at all by the general public, and never back to dogs just to produce pets for profit.


As another aside, in the US it is illegal to sell anyone puppies removed from their mothers and littermates before 8 weeks old, so anyone removing pups any younger than that and selling them in the US is breaking the law, anyway!

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Vicky

As another aside, in the US it is illegal to sell anyone puppies removed from their mothers and littermates before 8 weeks old, so anyone removing pups any younger than that and selling them in the US is breaking the law, anyway!

It is also breaking of the European Law. And also the Kennel Club law. In the most cases it is not allow to sell puppies younger than 8 weeks (7 weeks in Czech Republic as far I know).
Why breeders are still breaking it? It is because of the Urban legends..... Old breeder are talking over and over again about the times when CzW were bred by the army. The puppies werte born in the kennels and had VERY limited contact with people. So the puppies get more bounded on other dogs than on the people. It was the reason why it was better to take the CzW puppies away from the mother than it was by other breeds.

Now it changed a lot - the puppies are born at homes, they have much better contact with people - they grow up as family members. And it is no more needed to separate them before they are 7-8 weeks old. It is even better not to do this because it is clearly visible that puppies which leave mother earlier have huge problems to come clear with other dogs later. Such puppies have also much worser bite control (they didn't learn from other puppies that it is "allowed" to bite too strong).

Of course there are still kennels where the dogs live in the same or even worser conditions than 30 years ago. In such cases it is really better to pick up the puppy as soon as possible. Also if the mother of the litter is shy or over reacting (agressive) - it is better to separate the puppy sooner.
BUT there is always the question - if it make sence to buy puppies from a breeder who is not carrying for the puppies and not socialising them.
And if it is good (responsible) to breed (or buy offsprings) of extremly shy or agressive dogs...

Anyway: if you want to get a NORMAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdog it is really better to keep to this 8-weeks rule and not to pickup the puppy to early or too late...