"Suspicious" dogs list

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by rolf

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

Exactly. And to create DNA-Tests for hereditary diseases you need DNA from as much dogs, ill ones and healthy ones, as possible. At the moment there is no DNA-test for any disease in CSW. It is not even 100% sure that the dwarf test will show the same genes as in SWH and GSH.
We till now bred with Slowakian studs, Italien studs, Hungarian studs, Czech studs and German studs. That is the reason why we need an international comparable test. And what would you like to show here on wolfdog.org? The lab registration number of the test? What sense does it make if everybody makes it´s own, not comparable test? There has to be rules how to take the blood samples, which laboratories will take it, who will store and analyse the results and so on. Otherwise the people that cheated before will cheat with the DNA as well.
DNA-tests surely will come and there will be an international agreement about ist one day, but not tomorrow.

Coming back to the suspicions. Do you really think that Margo (sorry Margo, I just take you for an example) said this and there is a rumor is a proof? Imagine someone ill minded would say your dog has some heriditary problems and others follow him and your dog comes on this privately kept list. This has been done before many times. There will be no help from DNA test for open hair.

Ina

[Rona]

Ina, I agree with you 100%.

If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest. Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it.

However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money.

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

[elf]

You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money.

A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did.

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way.

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by elf

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless.

You right - in the most cases such "private" list are much worser that the official disscusions (or even gentle "fights"). It is always s better to have the chance to disscus something in public because you can not argue with the gossips spread behind your back.

On the other hand I understand the breeders. If you are honest you loose...

Look some topics below... I really had no problems to publish that one of dogs from my kennel is only 64 cm... The result? Because of being fair and honest I had to read pompous words written by some breedders "the dog is for nothing". Words written by breeders which have dogs with not only one fault but many serious; which have no one but more too small dogs, breed with them but they hide the reality by not making the bonitations (or writting in the bonitation code bigger size than the dogs really are) and not showing the dogs in public places where someone can see them...

The same is with HD-results. In Czech Republic the club choosed the good way and publish all HD-results. They are fair and hide nothing. But what is the result - in some cases the Czech breeders are worser evaluated than some breeders from other countries which send only good HD-result and spread the information "my puppies are much better than the Czech because in CZ some have HD and all my dogs are only HD-A or HD-B"...
I guarantee you than many puppy buyers will choose let say French kennel with 50 dogs bred where you have only 5 dogs with HD-results all of them HD-A (and maybe 10 other dogs which were tested but the results are hidden because the dogs were HD-C, HD-D and HD-E) and not the Czech kennel where the breeder has 20 puppies - 15 tested with HD-A and HD-B and let's say 3 dogs HD-C. Because in the first case they will see only HD-A results, and by the Czech kennel they will see HD-A, HD-B and HD-C...
Hiding results really works and it is also the reason why so many breeders do not want to publish all information...

So we can make some "statistics" only when all clubs will work together - we can make statistisc of HD but ONLY when we will get all official HD-results... We can not base on the sincerity of the breeders... Sad but true...

[Mikael]

Hmmmmm…

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.
You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety.

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Yes some breeders will try to cheat, but whit a DNA database it will be harder to do this, not easier.

And even whit about 4-6 standard DNA results the breeders will have to look at the exterior,
and the buyers will have to look fore work, bonitation and show results.

The DNA database would bee a complement fore the breeders, not a 100% breeding standard list.

And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please.

But I understand way some breeders do not wont DNA tests,
because it will cost a bit and there is no way to hide away a bad result.

Best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hmmmmm…

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.

No good breeder will be really aganist DNA tests, but we need see how this DNA test will be made, I saw the topic about the DNA tests on Belgiun, I'm really glad by their movement for the good breeding but they leave some holes that can and surelly will be used for bad breeders sake, or you really believe that someone who wants sold mixes dogs will lost the opportunity to have a mix "DNA-tested pure breed CzW"?
If I live in Belgium I will be really against this test because the way it will be done and the huge problem it will brings.
But I really think in see how much will coast for make DNA test in all litter I do, and, if possible, talk with the laboratories for we make a DNA database as save the blood line of the dogs for possible future use, but this is for a not much far future.

You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

It isn't so easy like that, if we map the breed you will see that almost all dogs and all lines will carry a problem, some more serious and some less.
Even that will not mean we can put out all dogs wich have or pass problems, unhaply we not have genetic pool for do it.

Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety.

I really wish this day comes soon as possible, but I know that it will leave still much time, so we cannot count with such tecnology now.

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Some diseases are in the breeding, most part we nor are able to imagine, CzW is a new breed and we don't know how many illness exists already and how are tipical or would be if lack correct selection.
But, we enter again in the poor genetic pool problem, and this will follow all breeders until the line be PROPERLLY open.
Soppose we find a old displasic CzW with a really rare line, a uncommon line wich will make a really good open of blood.
What would you, as breeder do?
Put this dog outside breeding because his hips isn't good enough and kill a new open pure line with the future death of this old dog?
Make alitter with he using a famale with really good hips and wich is pretty know for pass these good hips for it's offsprings?
Every people with common sense will have the first action, take the dog out the breeding because his bad hips, but it isn't so easy, doing it you will lost a really good opportunity to open the line of the breeding with a pure animal, and you can't imagine how this is precious for every breed with such little genetic pool.
If we take the second option, use the displasic dog with a good female, all puppies probably will carry the displasy gene, supose that 50% will show the problem and 50% not, with selection we can fix again the displasy problem in this specific line, and everyone that will use this line must be awared about it.
Remembering with the high consanguinity in this breed, probably every dog carry the displasy problem, but most part of good selected animals with correct body don't show it.
If we don't use this displasic open lined dog, soon more illness than only displasy will appear because the high imbreeding, it will be worst than displasic puppies I can guarantee it to you, soon we will need open the line with.. a carpatian wolf, it wil be like start of the 0 again with the new line, a lot of work will must be done for this new line be tipical at the CzW again, principally in behaviour.
Every decision must be really well thinked before be done, principally when we talk about take lines out of breeding.
Remembering that I'm not saying here that is correct use displasyc dog, or that displasic dogs may not be discarted of breeding, but if appear a very special case like the one I cited here.

And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please.

Good breeders have nothing to hide, this site show it perfectly.
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack.
So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Good breeders have nothing to hide, this site show it perfectly.
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack.
So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.

I would like to add that not all breeders care about this site due to personal problems, a lot of gossip and talking behind the back + many other reasons and for most parts it is the owner of the dog and not the breeder who add info about HD/ED/Bonitation/etc. ...it is not always bad breeders just because missing info ...some breeders sell many dogs abroad and loose contact with the new owners and some breeders just don`t add the info on this site(for many reasons), it does not mean that you are a bad breeder or are hiding info just because you don`t add info to a private site ! ....remember this is a private owned site for CSW

Greetings Rolf

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.
You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

No, nobody will be against such tests. It is the best thing which can be done BUT so far you do not have the DNA tests to check if the dog carry dysplasia, ED, heart problem, epilepsy, aso.... Such test are available for some other breeds but so far I know they can used only by the breeds which were tested and not for all (almost int he most cases they are also useless for us because they check decreases which never appear by CzWs)...
Some illnesses are not inheritated on a simple way and more genes are responsible for it - in such cases maybe it will be never possibile to make any DNA tests...

Anyway I don't want to say the people here do nothing and hide everything. NO! I have really good news for you... Since some years we collect information about reasons of death - we put into the database when the dog died, why (if it was natural reason or not). Thanks to the breeders and owners we will be able soon to make first statistics how long CzW really live (when we will filter out the unnatural reasons) and the most common causes.

But it is not all - we collect also infromation about the health: the breeders and owners can choose if the information they send will be published on the Wolfdog or not (and used only for statistisc and other tests).

So the infromation is already collected and will appear in the new database....

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Rona

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

I meant elf, of course, not Rolf

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs...

Exactly!! Naturally, not all people, but definitely too many. It's sometimes seems to me that more people are "unhealthily" proud of their dogs than of their spouses, kids or professional achievements