bonitation in Belgium

[of_Mercedes_Dream]

Hello from Belgium,

Can someone give some advice or sollutions to organise bonitations in Belgium? Those must be the same as in the origine countries. This is the only sollutions for the problem that in "our countries" the CSW is breeded only for the beauty and lookalike of a real wolf. (see article and answer Branca the moviestar...)
Thanks
Patrick

[Pavel]

Hi Patrick,
I think, that is no sense to make bonitation, when in your country is not so much CsW and mostly when is there not regular club of CsW.
About the problem when "CSW is breeded only for the beauty" its a basicaly big problem, which I dont comment so much. But believe me, all dog races, which was created in the past for really work and today are breeding only for shows and exterior, without character and working potential selection, go very fast to hell. Examples you can see on every dog show.
If you or somebody else want to have CsW with bonitation, can use bonitations in other countries, where are just now organisated by domestic clubs (regularly Czech and Slovak republic, Switzerland and Germany). Next regular bonitation is this Saturday (4.9.2004) in Poland (near by German border - see http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/events/320.html).
Organisate bonitation only on basic measure the exterior without really character test would be comedy only, not a bonitation of working dogs breed.

Pavel

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream

Can someone give some advice or sollutions to organise bonitations in Belgium?

It is really easy but because Belgium is far away from breed origin countries it can be pretty expensive. If you want to make the bonitation you have to invite a club judge from Slovakia or Czech Republic. And that's all...

Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream

This is the only sollutions for the problem that in "our countries" the CSW is breeded only for the beauty and lookalike of a real wolf.

It can be a solution but you have also pay attention to other thing: a "beautiful" dog in France, Holland or some other West European countries is not always recognized as a "beautiful" dog in CZ or SK because those countries pay still a lot attention to the breed standard. There are some breeders which have their "own type" and such dogs will have huge problems to get good note from a Czech or Slovakian judge. Best example was the bonitation in Italy this year where the most winning dog (by italian judges) was disqualified during the bonitation and second "beautiful wolfish dog" (these are also words by Italian judges) would get maximum "very good" because of huge faults in movement, type and character.

Also the character test is problematic - you can ask Mijke: if a dog is not really prepared for such test it will have problems to pass it. And it means P14 and disqualification....

So bonitation sounds good but it is better if the owners will see how the bonitation looks like....

[massimo]

Ciao Margo,
sorry if I bump into the discussion like this but knowing a little bit more directly the information which has been passed to you I would like to make some comments, just to be precise and to give detailed info.
"There are some breeders which have their "own type" and such dogs will have huge problems to get good note from a Czech or Slovakian judge. Best example was the bonitation in Italy this year where the most winning dog (by italian judges)"
Not only Italian ones, last year in Bratislava,
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/shows/823.html
The dog you are writing about was second in champion class, first was another "italian" dog.
This dog's Son was first in junior class and is also the second dog you write about "and second "beautiful wolfish dog" (these are also words by Italian judges) ". Also in this case not only Italian judges.
His daughter was second in Junior class after Your beautiful Andariel (BOB), too.
The judge was NOT italian but was Sonia Bognarova (slovakian) a judge which I respect and consider a friend and the same judge that made the bonitation.
It maybe should be explained that it was the second bonitation EVER in Italy and we NEVER prepared our dogs for this event, this is WRONG.
Cutt, the first dog you speak about, was NOT BRAVE Oc, but he was also 64.5cm tall, that is 0.5 cm below the standard and a reason for disqualification.
I believe that with a little testing (as you suggest in your mail) and 0.5cm more he would have passed bonitation.
I know the dog personally (i own one of his numerous sons, and you know my dog) and he is really not such a coward.
Of course, I will not speak about the fact that he has been used too many times because it would be OT.

I'm always open for further clarifications if anyone wants some!!
Massimo

[massimo]

I forgot to add.
As in Italy not so many dogs meet and train for bonitation, it was decided by the club, which is DIRECTLY under the rules of the Italian DOG FEDERATION, that the character part of the "italian" bonitation should be OFFICIALLY RECOGNISED with a test called CAL (certificat of attitude to work).
We do not know if this will be accepted by the Italian Federation and are still waiting for the reply.
If the reply will be positive then in order to make the bonitation to your dog you must have this certificate CAL.
It's not IMPOSSIBLE to pass it because one of my friends passed it last sunday with a WDG, TRISTAN, who's owners really put a lot of effort and time training him.
Massimo

[z Peronówki]

Not only Italian ones, last year in Bratislava,
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/shows/823.html
The dog you are writing about was second in champion class, first was another "italian" dog. This dog's Son was first in junior class and is also the second dog you write about "and second

I was there and I will be honest - the places were OK and Sona judged good but she had no other choice: the competition by males in Bratislava during the European Dog Show was very, very weak. There were only two males looking good: Crying wolf Forrest & Arimminum Nunamiut. It means dogs which get CACIB and res.CACIB. Sure there were also nice 'famous' dogs (Aron, Jerry, Baron, Galiba) but in this time they were not "in form"... So the placement depends always from the form and competition....
About Nunamiut: I was not talking about all Italian dogs. It is not the point. I'm only talking about breeding different type and it is good visible in IT, NL, FR or BE. Sure there are also very good dogs abroad and f.e. Nunamiut is good example of it - he is good example of good Czech type of male. And there are many other dogs which can easly compete on dog shows in CZ and SK because the breeders try to breed the "right" type using the best Slovakian and Czech males and Sarka is good example of it: puppies from Grey Wolf z Molu Es, Dak z Rosíkova, Aron Malý Bysterec...

It maybe should be explained that it was the second bonitation EVER in Italy and we NEVER prepared our dogs for this event, this is WRONG.

That's what I'm talking about. It is not critique but simply a fact: I was also during the first bonitations in Germany and sometimes about 70-80 % of dogs get disqualification because the dogs were not prepared and the owners had no idea about the bonitation and not because the dogs had bad character...

Cutt, the first dog you speak about, was NOT BRAVE Oc, but he was also 64.5cm tall, that is 0.5 cm below the standard and a reason for disqualification.

I spoke about it and there were also visible problems by movement by him and his son... And I think by the son also the indexes were not OK... I can ask for more info...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

As in Italy not so many dogs meet and train for bonitation, it was decided by the club

That's the point. In Italy it was decided by the club but in some WE countries it is almost impossible to train with the dogs for the bonitation (or better to say "to prepare them for the bonitation") - that's the reason why I mentioned the article written by Mijke: for example for many Dutch dogs it would be almost imposible to pass Czech exam wihout training because the dogs are not used to shooting and to attack....

[massimo]

Hi Margo,
sorry but I just didn't like your sentence:

......some breeders ...dogs will have huge problems to get good note from a Czech or Slovakian judge. Best example was the bonitation in Italy ...

Because the results in Bratislava are facts.
Although many other dogs were not in good form, this doesn't mean they weren't there.
There were many many good dogs from CZ and SK, some of the best around, that's competition. I think last year there were even better dogs than this year in Bratislava.
If we apply your criteria:
the placement depends always from the form and competition....
then NEVER in a dog show the results are "true".
I once saw a dog show with just one CSW, he was not very nice and following the standard. Although he was alone, he got just "very good" and didn't get the CAC.
Judgement shouldn't depend on competition, just on the dog. The placement depends on competition.

...the breeders try to breed the "right" type using the best Slovakian and Czech males and Sarka is good example of it: puppies from Grey Wolf z Molu Es, Dak z Rosíkova, Aron Malý Bysterec...

Using the "right" type doesn't necessarily mean getting the best results, although Sarka produced some of the best CSW around.
She also used Cutt...

...I spoke about it and there were also visible problems by movement by him and his son... And I think by the son also the indexes were not OK... I can ask for more info...

I don't konw about Miki because his bonitation was not finished, but I know Cutt and he has a good character, moves well. I don't know his indexes but I will ask his owners and update you.
Massimo

[Meisel]

Also i want to say a few words to Pavel,dont think that in east European countrys there are only good wolfdog owners,the are also in the west,but because of the stupid way of breeding by a few breeders we are looked at as if we dont have a clou what a wolfdog is about.......WRONG we do!!!!
So dont do as if we would destroy the Csw rase in the west,There are people here who have the best at hard with the CSW!!

[Pavel]

Hi Meisel,
you dont understand me well.

Originally Posted by Meisel

So dont do as if we would destroy the Csw rase in the west,There are people here who have the best at hard with the CSW!!

I never said, that "west" destroyed the race. I wrote, that in mostly west countries of Europe is more problems with shy dogs, then with "non trained" dogs. If you will read again my comment, then you found, that my reaction was not critique of some countries, but only answer on Letty's comment from which I understood, that Letty means, that bonitation can pass only the dog, which trained in dog school.

Originally Posted by Meisel

dont think that in east European countrys there are only good wolfdog owners,the are also in the west,but because of the stupid way of breeding by a few breeders we are looked at as if we dont have a clou what a wolfdog is about.......WRONG we do!!!!

You are absolutely right, bad owners and breeders are everywhere, same like the good one. And same is it with dogs. Doesnt matter in which country.

And one notice on end. Please, visit some shows or meetings of CsW in Czech or Slovak republic and some in "west" countries. Then you can make self the picture about the reality. ITS FACT, THAT OUTSIDE THE COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN IS PERCENTUALLY MORE SHY (OR BAD SOCIALISTED) DOGS ! Its not slander or blackwash, its a fact and everybody, who knows the reality, can gives me right. And many my friends around the Europe can explain you, that am not a kind of nationalist or something so. I simply love our wolfdogs and want doing only the best for it, doesnt matter from which country the dog or owner is.

[Koos]

Hi Pavel,

You answer about the bonitation is correct but I think, I was not clearly enough that means, that not every CW had to go to a dogschool but the
the possibilities to "propare" a dog for Bonitaition is in Holland, Zero, zero.
In that way I mean, that it can be usefull to go to a dogschool.
I also said, that it possible to train the dog by yourself but then you have to know what is going on by the bonitation.

Greetings,

Letty

[of_Mercedes_Dream]

Hello from Belgium,

I'm very disapointed that my little question became such big point of discussion al over Europe.
I can not come into these discussions because the Belgian experience is too little.
In Belgium we can not make an official club because St Hubertus only agree when each year 30 puppies will be born.
So the first meeting in Schoten(B) in June 2004 was a big start.
Let us continue and I hope in 10 years a csw will be accepted like in the original countries. But we need help from those countries.
If some csw club judge want to come to Belgium for a meeting-bonitation, please let me know. Normally in June 2005 the second meeting will be organised in Schoten (Belgium) .
Greatings
Patrick

[Meisel]

Okay,maybe i didn`t understand you correctly,but the fact remains that there are many good dogs here in Holland,but you dont see them because the live in Family`s and they dont go to shows or whatever,i have seen many dogs here who aren`t shy or afraid but very open and good socialised.
And also we were in the Tsjech republic this summer in Lazne at the summercamp,so we did see the dogs you talk about and i dont think that there is so much difference between them,so honestley i dont think we are doing it so bad.
We have seen that the people there were very loving and kindly towards
there dogs,the same as we are.

[Angelika]

Hello Meisel,
there is a very interesting article about bonitation at the french page (confirmation vs bonitation - tres long - by Philippe from 07.09.04). It assists your point of view in refer to bonitation. Philippe thought that his dog is a very good one, because the west-judges gave him only good notes, but now he has done the bonitation in Poland, and - helas - he got P14. Now Philippe wants to know what to do "pour ne pas denaturer une nouvelle race en France".
Unfortunately, my school-english and france is not very good, so I cannot translate this interesting article.
Greetings
Angelika

[Ori]

Hello everybody!
I was participating with my dog in the bonitation in Poland and I have a word about Phillippe's dog's.
I was waiting a long to see Anubis, my Amber's brother. But it wasn't nice meeting for me. I expected a dog looking similar like Amber but he wasn't. Amber lookslike his father Anubis is so skinny, so thin, with no muscles at all, but the worst is he is so shy that you can't even tought him! He goes to the end of a chain and on the end he(like a wild animal) rounds and shows his teeth!!!
I'm suprised Phillippe did not see it by himself!

But most of the wolfdogs on this bonitation unexpactly good behaving, so all bonitation (first time in Poland) made a good impresion on me and I'm so happy it was here

[z Peronówki]

Lot time is gone since the last answer but we have winter, a lot of free time and finally ....... I was able to finish my answer...

Originally Posted by massimo

the placement depends always from the form and competition....

Yes - that's I'm talking about. If we will take an average dog and we show him twice:
- one time in a strong competition here there are only beautiful dogs with almost no faults
- second time in a class where there are only german shepherd looking dogs

On the first dog show our average dog will be the winner and second time it will be last. But there will be also difference in the note it gets - sometimes it is even two degrees. Sure if you have good judge there will be no such huge difference but still I think it will be one degree - for example 'very good' instead of 'excellent'.

Originally Posted by massimo

then NEVER in a dog show the results are "true".

I will say: "they are not true for 100%". Example: if a dog will a dog show where there are for example 100 dogs it does not mean the same dog will win another dog show where there are only 3 dogs... There are so many factors... I know something about this... believe me...

Originally Posted by massimo

Judgement shouldn't depend on competition, just on the dog. The placement depends on competition.

You right. But some dogs are on the border between "excellent" and "very good", between "very good" and "good". And in this case it depends from the competition.

Originally Posted by massimo

Using the "right" type doesn't necessarily mean getting the best results, although Sarka produced some of the best CSW around.

You right - if you use unique dogs sometimes you get "unique" results. Not always good. It is always a little bit risky. But also the reward is much better - if you breed nice dogs with unique pedigrees your puppies are much more precious than (sometimes better) dogs from more exploited stud dogs...

But as for Sarka - it is also very good visible: if we take into consideration number of produced puppies and number of good quality puppies she reached very good results. Because averyge quality of puppies for her kennel is much higher that for some other breeders. And I think it is because she used this dogs...

When we were looking for a puppy for us we were not looking for a kennel which produced the MOST KNOWN dogs - we were looking for a kennel which produced BETTER DOGS. We checked how looks the AVERAGE quality for each kennel.

In the beginning we had in CZ two different options - one kennel was very well known. Second much less. But we checked the stats and:
- the first breeder produced over 120 puppies and only few of them were beautiful. He won a lot but only with his dogs. Sure he had some very important titles but only few dogs were nice - the rest was unter the average level.
- second kennel had much less puppies but there were nice dogs in every litter. And also the average level of quality was much higher. And the most important - also dogs not owned by the breeder won a lot (it was important because some breeders have very strong connections with judges and sometimes they win even if they show GSD-looking CzWs).

We decided for the second kennel of course - only from this breeder we had huge probability that we will get good quality puppy...

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

Otherwise, our club is not happy with the bonitation, because they say that a dog, which has done the bonitation, is an attacking dog.

Really?!? I can say - the most dangerous dog in our pack is the only one which do not attacked the decoy during the bonitation. The rest is OK - and there were more problems before the bonitation that after it...

Originally Posted by Pavel

Its a reason, why many people dont understand, whats about we speaking, if say "prepare to bonitation". Its not means to training in dog school only. Dog must be not trained to go to bonitation but must be good socialisated first.

That's the basic point. But to be honest - a perfect socialized dog will not get a good note on bonitation if it is not trained. During the character tests you do not want that the dog is stable and friendly but it has to attack. Shy dog which attack will get for sure much better code that stable dog which do nothing...

Originally Posted by Pavel

I heard some times the stupid idea, that if is dog attacked from figurant, the is the best, when he dont defence self. What creatures want to have such people ? Normally living creature have a survival instinct and self defending instinct. So that if is attacked from other creature, then defending self. Its a basically princip of life.

We are not talking here about natural instincts. Most dogs are for the whole live trained that it is forbidden to attack people even if the dog is in danger. It is the main goal of socialization and biggest part of modern training. So such dogs do not attack the decoy not because there is no 'survival instinct' but because they are trained not to attack in any case...

Originally Posted by massimo

It's true it is not NECESSARY to train your dogs befor bonitation (you were in Lazne with Dvorack and trained him a little, right?).

For most dogs the bonitation test is something totally different. Just imagine: the dog is on a CHAIN, TIED UP, left ALONE. There is a SHOT (not just a loud noice) and a MAN who tries to attack.
So I will say - even if you have good socialized dog it is better to check how your dog will react in such situation. I saw a lot dogs with very good character which didn't passed this test because it was something DIFFERENT. Situation which you will never survive in your life...

Originally Posted by massimo

Shy dogs often don't pass even if trained...

Not exactly. Nothing is perfect and for judging a dog the judge use a type of pattern: if the dog will attack the decoy some judges do not pay any attention that these dogs are just trained but still have the tail between the legs... Also these dogs pass the test. That is the reason why some people say the character test need modernization - it you will add there some socialization exersizes it will be impossible for such dogs to pass this test.
In Poland we have better solution for working breeds - we have a test which is similar for the bonitation test but the decoy is not only attacking the dog but he has also protection sleeve and the check how the dog bites.

Originally Posted by Meisel

And also we were in the Tsjech republic this summer in Lazne at the summercamp,so we did see the dogs you talk about and i dont think that there is so much difference between them,so honestley i dont think we are doing it so bad.

Sure. Thats true and the summer camp was the best example for it - there were more dogs from abroad which passed the exams. The only question is: how many CzW are so stable? How many a able to pass sucht exams?
The question is not: "if there are any" but "how many"...

But back to the main theme:

Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream

If some csw club judge want to come to Belgium for a meeting-bonitation, please let me know. Normally in June 2005 the second meeting will be organised in Schoten (Belgium).

I think there will be no problem for any judge really interested in this breed. It is really good solution to merge the bonitation with any other CzW event: it can be meeting or bigger dog show (maybe a club dog show?). It is hard to invite a judge only for the bonitation but many "gurus" will come with pleasure if he/she will be able to meet more people and see more CzWs...
In the fact we will also willingly come to such meetings with our dogs... Just write date and we will raise a little bit the attendance...

[Mirkawolf]

Margo,

the meeting is now in the stage of preparations. For now, it looks like one-day meeting sometime in spring. In such case, I do not think somebody from abroad would run around for one afternoon However, if the spring meeting goes well and people like it, there is no reason why not to make another one in fall, and this time bigger
Once there is something certain known, me or Mijke will let you know

Mirka