Tail

[freewild]

hi just one question

about traduce about
the standard :

TAIL Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape.


for you what is shape

the first faucille :

or sabre :

because we have on post about the tail

tank's for all answer

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by freewild

hi just one question

about traduce about
the standard :

TAIL Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape.

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.

[Mirkawolf]

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:



The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:



The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

I have idea. Maybe right tail in this shape have only working dogs And for Mirka it is very normal because in czech many people make exams with wolfdog. Brave is in database ZZO, ZOP. And in france no so furyos your dogs have no reason to be proud and no reason to have tails like this....

[furyos]

hi all .... y m not a juge( and yu too) BUT y say a litlle reserve when yu say tail necessary up like "nordik dog"(because some of yur pics show that sorry ) ....in fact yes it will be up (to show good caracther/exiting /etc ....no problem y m 100%agree(some pics from mirka are ok ) )but not like an husky or malamute(tex's pics ) ...... if yu don 't see difference beetween a dog who have a tail up like a dominant wolf but like a nordik:::::::: it' s a shame! .... personaly y think :if tail is to arround on her it 's a default ...good position it will be up when dog is on movment but not "turn arround "...do yu feel diffence or not ?.... don 't forget that our dogs had wolf origine and not nordik dog on their blood !!!!y NEVER SEE A WOLF LIKE AN HUSKY TAIL!!!!.... please don' t forget the difference .... and don 't say on this forum what it is YUR arrangments ....thank yu so mutch ...best regards ....furyos ...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi all .... y m not a juge( and yu too) BUT y say a litlle reserve when yu say tail necessary up like "nordik dog"(because some of yur pics show that sorry ) ....in fact yes it will be up (to show good caracther/exiting /etc ....no problem y m 100%agree(some pics from mirka are ok ) )but not like an husky or malamute(tex's pics ) ...... if yu don 't see difference beetween a dog who have a tail up like a dominant wolf but like a nordik:::::::: it' s a shame!

Well, nordic, wich one?
Huskies and malamute have a completly different standard when we talk about tail.
Huskies tail must seems a fox tail, at movement must be ported up without touch the back, is preferenceable that it make a pretty curve in sickle format.
Husky tail must be quickly down at backline
Malamute's tail must be on the back at stay but cannot be curlied, must be on the line of the back.
Czechoslovakian wolfdog tail must have high insertion when the dog is axited the tail can be ported at sickle shape (as in the Mirka photo)

.... personaly y think :if tail is to arround on her it 's a default ...good position it will be up when dog is on movment but not "turn arround "...do yu feel diffence or not ?.... don 't forget that our dogs had wolf origine and not nordik dog on their blood !!!!y NEVER SEE A WOLF LIKE AN HUSKY TAIL!!!!.... please don' t forget the difference .... and don 't say on this forum what it is YUR arrangments ....thank yu so mutch ...best regards ....furyos ...

Because difficultly you will see a wolf or a high content wolfdog on the street or dogshows walking pretty like a sociabilized dog, with so good behaviour for walk showing the tail up relax at point to be in sickle full of movement.

Tail is one way for the dog and wolf express his felligs, one way for they talk, so, principally in wolves and wolfdogs the tail format can seems pretty different dog by dog at dogshows because it will depend directly of the behaviour, sociabilization and character of the dog.

One wolfdog.org you can find some photos of wolves, so, one of then show you a sickle tail, that will continue on sickle if this wolf have a pretty dominant character and have no concurrency, is only you look on the deep of the photo.


Yes, the tails in sickle only isn't up, and some tails in sickle you can find serching on the photos, but they will be difficultly up like a good behavioured wolfdog on dogshows.

[furyos]

hi nebulosa .... how are yu? very well y hope ?pics yu show me prove exactly what y want explain ...if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...do yu see a pure german shepherd or a pure wolf like this???? sorry for me NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that ......HO SORRY !!! y forget ..yu are a friend from fabrice (french moderator) sorry if yu don' t like when y post reply about his dog ...but it s not he' is dog the problem(furcas have a lot of qualities) ..BUT it s the position about ALL TAILS like that ...yu feel and see the difference ? his pics posted is just an exemple to show the problem on image .... that 's all !!!..don t feel any agression or problem on mrs nebulosa ..it s my opinion and y think y can have one ...not ? best regards... furyos ...

[furyos]

hi....it s me again ...y look a lot of pictures and talk just now with some juges on phone(sorry y don 't give their name).... the problem for me (and them )it' s not tail up or down but the form of her when it s up ...curl on it 's a fault .... if it 's up and straight or little curl ok ...but if the curl is too mutch and go left or right side on the back ...this is a real big problem .... some nordik have this position and form of tail .... y hope yu understand this point of vue ...regards ..furyos

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi....it s me again ...y look a lot of pictures and talk just now with some juges on phone(sorry y don 't give their name).... the problem for me (and them )it' s not tail up or down but the form of her when it s up ...curl on it 's a fault .... if it 's up and straight or little curl ok ...but if the curl is too mutch and go left or right side on the back ...this is a real big problem .... some nordik have this position and form of tail .... y hope yu understand this point of vue ...regards ..furyos

Yes curl tail is a fault, but have someone see a CzW with curl tail?! if yes have photos?
an exemple of a silly curl tail.


more strong curly



I not imagine a CzW with a curly tail because the tail inserction and the bones it not reach for be curlied.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi nebulosa .... how are yu? very well y hope ?pics yu show me prove exactly what y want explain ...if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on)

No, the tail of the second wolf isn't up, if be up will be on sickle like on the photos of Mirka.

..but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...do yu see a pure german shepherd or a pure wolf like this????sorry for me NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!

No, the picture of Mirka show a dog with very good character.
Yes you can find pure wolfs with the tail on sickle like you can find GSD working line with tail on sickle when exicted, principally on working trials, is only you have more convivence with these two animals and you will see.

for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that

Even if I appear with a CzW with curlied tail, this won't be a serious problems when the breed need better selection in more important parts, every experienced judge that judge a specialized dog show will give winner for a dog with excelent structure and behaviour even if this dog have an not wiched tail port, that isn't the case of sickle tail.
For me the behaviour of the dog is pretty important for selection, tail in up sickle at dogshows or public locals when walk, tail down right at normal position when relax ( maybe with the set up), for a wolfdog is a proof of good character.

......HO SORRY !!! y forget ..yu are a friend from fabrice (french moderator) sorry if yu don' t like when y post reply about his dog ...but it s not he' is dog the problem(furcas have a lot of qualities) ..

and so?
I really see no problems on Furcas tail, and I tough nobody see a problem in this, because this problem you talk not exist on he or Odin.

BUT it s the position about ALL TAILS like that ...yu feel and see the difference ? his pics posted is just an exemple to show the problem on image .... that 's all !!!..don t feel any agression or problem on mrs nebulosa ..it s my opinion and y think y can have one ...not ? best regards... furyos ...

All tails like that means normally a dog full of self thrust, that is pretty searched in the breed of any dog principally when we talk about dogshow, because dogs like that have something that we call "star" inside, they show as who think that're the best ones, that is the star, some experienced handlers say that the "star" isn't possible to be selected, that like with humans, some dogs born with the star, some not, is more a lucky question, you can have a very good behavoured dog without this, I still believe it's a lucky question.

[furyos]

hi again nebulosa ...if yu think that it s YUR IDEA nebulosa if yu like yur idea no problem for me ......y respect it ...BUT NOT MINE ....for me yu are not open enougth in yur judgment and think just what yu want or feel on wolfdog ...like "anthropomorphism"....but selection it s not just lucky storie ... or little star on .... FOR ME : if y have one dog with this problem y NEVER try to have pupps with ..that 's all ... y don' t want see that in the future ...this is my idea ... respect it ...that s all ...best regards ...furyos

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by furyos

...but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...

for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that ....

Did I get you right?

[lupis]

Originally Posted by furyos

if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...

But dog can be dominant and not only excited. Exciced tail is over back but not very high. Dominant wolves have tail very much up. How many woves do you see which were dominant to you?

Originally Posted by Angelika

If you have a look at the owned dogs it seems 4 or 5 French breeders are extremely under "Hungarian influence" at the moment, and some of them prefer dog shows in France, Switzerland and Holland more than in the countries of origin.
Angelika

Thank you for explanation. I see hungarian dogs imported to my country and now i know what Furyos writes. Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up. Furyos can write tail up is not good because his dogs will never have such tails...

[Navarre]

I'm the owner of Beau Isabeau z Peronowki.
I think that she (and worser Furcas as seen in these photos) bring the tail too curly at the end and it is not very nice to see. In the bonitation Isabeau take a note (but not a code) about this.

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

On the other side I don't think this is a so terrible fault that can put dogs with this fault out of breeding...you can repair it by compensation,as you can see in this photo :


On close up Last Navarre (straight tail), at right Isabeau (curly tail) and at left their puppy Anastasia (mid-curly tail)

[lupis]

I do not understand..... If Mirka from Czech writes:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.

why you write?

Originally Posted by Navarre

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by lupis

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

[Nebulosa]

Still no curly tail on photos, please not make confusion.
All dogs have long basis bones on the tail and pretty same pelvis format, that impeach the tail to be curly.
For the tail be curlied the bones in the basis of the tail cannot be long, as the isquian must be high, this afect directly on the movimentation of the dog so, a curlied tailed dog will show different or atipical movimentation, probably wrong angles.
We have two different words ( that I not know in english) for these two tipes of curly tail, one is like Basenji, really curly.



Other is like Akitas and Alaskans Malamuts.




In the set of the tail we can find normally the J format even in wolves as exprection, this can happen even when the tail was broken when the dog was really little.



This format can appear because accident ( silly broken at point), because tail format, because tail size as because dog emotions, it will made the dog almost touch the back when carring the tail in dominant upper position.

Wolves tail are full of moviment and life, so, you can find wolves carring the tail in sicke shape and sabre as with the point in J.




But you will never find a wolf with curly tail, as I never find a wolfdog with curly tail.

Have 2 defects on the tails, one is called Scorpion Tail, isn't so serious but isn't wished, the last tail part turn up at back of the dog, like a scorpion tail, if not deceif-me happen because musculature problems ( to happen on wolves), and we can have death tail, serious problems that means or the bad formation of the neural tail side or by accidents, dogs wich had broken the tail in the basis.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

My knowledge of Italian language is very bad And I am to tired to visit now language translation programmes
So please, maybe you can translate this for me!

Since I was a child I did learn (my father was a breeder) that for a lot of things you have to feel / touch a dog (for example touch : tail, fur aso) before you judge!

In Nordic breeds you "can feel" the real curl in the tail even when they are not exited.
And there is a big difference in “feeling” when you touch the tail of a CsW (with always tail up when he/she is exited) when he/she is in rest, comparing with the tails of Nordic breeds in rest. Maybe everyone has to try these kind of things on several dogs before accusing each other……..

But at he othter hand, I am also not a fan of "over done " exited tails of CsW's
And I agree complete with the answer of Ina
For me it is a pity that such interesting things are not to discuss normal in this forum

@ lupis, you did write: "Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up"
I back you pardon, but how many Hungarian dogs did you see ( or feel )

I did see a lot of them with tails up when they were exited And I did have for a time a replaced Hungarian male in my pack, and I can assure you that he was very self confidenced and did have his tail up when he was exited! (and even Mirka can assure this)

At the other hand… in this topic there is also a picture I did made in a Belgium show of a CsW without any tail up! And this picture is for me the ultimate how a CsW has absolutely not to be!!!!!!!!
And when I think about and look at this dog, his behaviour, his appearance, then I think it is better not to quarrel any longer about a bit more or less curl in the tail when a CsW is exited.
But is more important that all CsW breeders work together to provide that such CsW’s (also in West Europe ) will not be ever breed again…….



In first place personal I feel very, very sorry for this dog that he did to come out on a show where he did feel so very uncomfortable ….,
And second place for his owner to bring such a dog on show .....
And third for his breeder who had the bad luck to breed such a CsW…..

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by mijke

My knowledge of Italian language is very bad And I am to tired to visit now language translation programmes
So please, maybe you can translate this for me!

Almost the same things I said in the message with the photo of 3 dogs. Lupis as far i know is italian.

Originally Posted by mijke

At the other hand… in this topic there is also a picture I did made in a Belgium show of a CsW without any tail up! And this picture is for me the ultimate how a CsW has absolutely not to be!!!!!!!!

I think that in this thread there are 2 different topics : character of csw and shape of tail.

The dog in this photo hasn't a brave character or is not properly socialized, but in another situation the same dog could have the tail up ! Don't forget that shy dogs are shy with humans and environment that they don't know, but aren't shy with other dogs or versus known people, for example.

So the character has small to nothing influence on the shape of tail.

About shape of tail : maybe I can't explain, but for "curly" obviously I' don't mean the dogs shown by Nebulosa...OK doesn't exist any csw with tail like a malamute, on this point we all agree.

A picture can explain what I think and what I mean :



For example my Isabau at rest has a normal tail but when excited is without doubt "curly". On the other side I saw many csw that have curly tail ("hook") even at rest.
And many times the tail, looking from the back, turn to the left or to the right, as Nebulosa said.

I think (but is not a LAW ) that the preferable tail is "straight" at rest and when excited and should not go left or right.

[Mirkawolf]

You know guys, I am rather fascinated, how many posts this thread already has, on such silly topic of what the shape of the tail should be, when carried high up

It is a pity, that there is not so many responses, when the shy character of the dogs is discussed, or that owners should work with their dogs as well, instead of just dragging them around dog shows.

I can tell you one thing - I´ve been on plenty dog shows or bonitations in Czech republic, judged by experienced judges, CSW specialists. And not a single judge paid any attention to in what shape the dog carries his tail, when excited! Because it is not important thing at all... The only thing the judge penalises, is the so called "hook" on the tail, which is fault that is seen only if the dog carries its tail down calmly.

Unless the tail would be carried like in basenji, which would indeed be weird, it is of no importance and there are much more important things in the standard, that should be followed and concentrated on!

Great faults like dark eyes, loooooooong tails, looooooong ears, black masks, light heads, missing teeth or character faults like great shyness - that´s what you should discuss and try to avoid in breeding. These are important faults against the standard and they make Czechoslovakian wolfdog to look either like German shepherd in wolf-grey colours, or worse, like a shy jackal.