de Louba Tar kennel

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

this is purely disgusting.
Yes, these conditions can be confirmed by a friend of mine who purchased a Saarlooswolfhond in the early 90's in Holland at her former puppy mill.
The conditions weren't much better at that time as he told me.
I haven't been to her place in France but a few other people reported the same as Paul had shown on his pics.
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.

Cheers,

Michael

[*Satu]

That place need help and very soon
And i know that place it´s not onlyone.

[Mirkawolf]

I am not really surprised about this. What surprises me, is that the conditions at this (or certain other kennels) were for a long time "accepted" or "ignored" and all of a sudden, it is a big thing and actions are to be taken.

What took so long? Or so to say, what made the change..?

I´ve seen in real some Louba Tar dogs in October 2005 on the special CSW dog show in Hoenderloo. They were all skinny and light-boned, very different from wolfdogs that I am used to see. I posted the photos at that time, there was an article about that dog show. Nobody was stressed about the look of the dogs at that time. Why now, all of a sudden?

Some of the photos of Louba Tar dogs, that I took at Hoenderloo, you can see here.

Btw., as a price for the winners, dog food for medium sized dogs was given....

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.
Michael

I know that rumour too. I did not visit the kennel personally, but I´ve made my opinion from the unified look of the Saarloos wolfdogs and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, that come from this kennel.. they all look the same, more or less. Btw., if you look well, you can see at least one picture from Pacino, that in one cage there is CSW and Saarloos together.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,

this is purely disgusting.
Yes, these conditions can be confirmed by a friend of mine who purchased a Saarlooswolfhond in the early 90's in Holland at her former puppy mill.
The conditions weren't much better at that time as he told me.
I haven't been to her place in France but a few other people reported the same as Paul had shown on his pics.
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.

Cheers,

Michael

hi, yes i am sure there are other people who can supply photos and information, if you have anything it can be forwarded to me via email or post, i only need facts with evidence, rumors about people will always be here as they always have been, i only need evidence or people who are prepared to make and sign statments, and will be prepared to go to court if required, regards paul

[furyos]

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

[furyos]

me agin ...just a questionfor mr paul ... ...y don t know yu and y don t juge yu of course BUT can yu explain mr paul why yu wait 3 years to write this and send this pictures ???? if yur sentiments in love about dogs contitions are top... why yu do a late reaction on this forum ???? and just explain to me WHY???? ,, reality please ....(in private reply if yu want) .... furyos

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

me agin ...just a questionfor mr paul ... ...y don t know yu and y don t juge yu of course BUT can yu explain mr paul why yu wait 3 years to write this and send this pictures ???? if yur sentiments in love about dogs contitions are top... why yu do a late reaction on this forum ???? and just explain to me WHY???? ,, reality please ....(in private reply if yu want) .... furyos

hi i will reply on line as i have nothing to hide, i have already given my reason as to why it has taken so long, so you must first of all read my mails, rain and bad weather does not cause dogs to get thin, nore does it cover a kennel in dog poo that has clearly been there for a while, as for selective breeding, well you like everyone else will have to wait a while yet then you can mail me again and explane about MRS Keizers selective breeding programe for you are in for a nasty shock, i have wanted to make this public for a long time but had to wait on the { red tape} to be sorted by the authorities, also to make sure the dogs will be safe as the French authorities have as you all know put down over 40 dogs at a kennels in France, i and others have made statements and given evidence and we will let the f.c.i. and the courts decide who is correct, i assure you we will win our case hands down, best regards paul uk

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

hi first of all i do not hate MRS Keizer, but only what she has been doing with the dogs, and what other people who buy her dogs do not know about them, including things with pedigrees and false registration, did you know MRS kEIZER HAS NO BREEDERS LICENCE IN fRANCE,,,, well you do now... i did get my first czech via Mrs Keizer but it was not from her kennel , surprised// i left France to have the first litter of Czechs in uk.. i have owned and bred dogs successfully in uk for over 30 yrs , my bitch akita produced the top winning akita bitch in usa of all time, also the top winning dog A ustralia, so i am not an novice at dogs or breeding, I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT A DE LOUBA TAR DOG,,, if i didnt have good relations with MRS kEIZER THEN WHY DID I STAY 18 MTHS,,,, it took a long time to discover what was going on, i then asked questions and found someone who has worked a long time to stop this kennels, with there help we now have all we need, yes at present you only have my side of things and i do understand that if you are a friend of Mrs Keizers that you have every right to be upset, but you will be very very upset soon, but not with me,,, do you really think i would put this on a web site if i could not prove all i say,, surely Mrs Keizer would have a solisitor contact me for slander, or deformission of caracter, in case Mrs Keizer has not my details here they are,
mr paul winder
station farm
station road
appledore
kent
tn26 2dg.
thank you best regards paul..

[elf]

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

[furyos]

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

hi its not a war, i feel it is my duty to both the czechoslovakian wolfdogs and the saarloos wolfhounds that have to live like this, i lived with these dogs for a long time and loved everyone of them, when i left two of my friends came to see us, when we made the photos and videos, we went to the kitchen area all four people in that room broke down and cried, yet we could not do anything for fear of the Frence authorities would destroy the dogs, it will all become clear very soon, i put this on the forum because the time was right and i want to make it clear, I and others want this breeder to be brought to justice, you will be amazed at what has been going on for over 15 yrs in Europe with the czech and saarloos, and the people involved, i want the dog world to know the facts, and when they come out then i am free to be critisized if it is felt nessesary, i respect people as a rule but when breeding dogs you are responsable for what you breed and sell, and if it is not correct then you sell dogs under fraudulent lies, the czechs and saarloos from these kennels look nothing like or even come in to there breed standards/// paul

[farena]

I´m goint to answer to michaelundinaeichhorn. I think that the conditions in which this animals are living are horrible. But for me is not so important that they are mixed with shaarloos, or another kind of dog. For me the most important is the bad condittions they are living in. Inma.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by elf

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

hi why are you surprised i made this public, are you not glad that we take action against this breeder, are you not glad that you now know the conditions the dogs have to live in, of coarse we take legal action we want it stoped for good, of coarse Mrs Keizer will be right she is a very well educated woman and very intelligent, and i did myself learn things from her, and i have been breeding dogs for 30 yrs, Mrs Keizer is very knowledgable about both the czech and saarloos breeds and i went there to learn before a took on a czechoslovakian wolfdog, this is even more reason why there is no excuse for the conditions the dogs live in, as you are phd graduate in genetics then you will know if you cross a poodle with a husky you cant call the offspring a poodle nor can you call it a husky MRS KEIZER ALSO KNOWS THIS////////

[Rona]

Thanks for your explanations, Paul. Keep us informed on developments.
Rona

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

Sorry, but I disagree here with you. Very good dog in show does not mean excellent dog. And always, always the standard should be kept.
De Louba Tar does not x-ray the dogs (or at least, the results are not known), it does not do bonitations, and the selection in breeding, if there is any, is rather unclear. Most of the dogs from this kennel look very, very different than standard CSW, sorry to say.
Perhaps they might be winning dog shows in Netherlands or France, when judges, friends of Mr. Keizer are judging. But the very same dogs would not get better than very good, if they were judged by judges, specialists to the breed. Which is why you will never see these dogs at such dog shows.
If that´s selection, it is very incorrect, if I say it nicely. If I am blunt, as usual, I say it is no selection at all, just mass production of puppies.

By what one measures experience with the race? By amount of puppies, produced in one kennel? Or by amount of dogs, one had kept in his kennels and never did anything with them during the years? Or by amount of dog shows, one had time to visit?

I had met people, who considered themselves dog experts, because they had dogs at home for more than twenty years. Yet they did not understand their dogs basic behaviour and their dogs did not even have the basic obedience.

I used to breed at home rabbits for more than ten years, should I be considered a rabbit specialist now? I don´t think so.

[elf]

So for me that kind of argumentation is a little bit strange.

Ina, please notice that I said "we only exchanged emails about the breed" and not said "I analyse all the breeding program". This is quiet different, this is a very serious story so everyone has to choose carefully its words and read carefully eachother.

Anthony

[*Satu]

I don´t see any sick dogs.
Some dog are little light conditions but not too thin.But i can´t say anything only about pics.

I have seen Mrs Keizer ones whit his saarloos and these dog was look nice and healty.

Pacino do you have summertime pics?

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by *Satu

I don´t see any sick dogs.
Some dog are little light conditions but not too thin.But i can´t say anything only about pics.

I have seen Mrs Keizer ones whit his saarloos and these dog was look nice and healty.

Pacino do you have summertime pics?

hi, have you looked at the photos??? you state {some dogs are light conditions} no the dogs are clearly under norished and very very thin, showing the complete out line of the full rib cadge,, have i any summer photos ? yes i have the only difference is the dogs are dry but still very thin,, the ardense in France is very cold and wet in the winter, so for at least 3-4 months of the year the dogs are wet and cold, they live outside and many of the dogs are out in compounds all night WITH NO SHELTER,, the czechs and saarloos are hardy dogs as we know and can with stand certain conditions, but a thin dog out all night in the rain and cold will not do very well, do you know that the condition of a dog in good health and of good weight will with stand the cold and wet conditions better than that of a thin and under norished dog ? well you do now,, for it is a true fact, no dog at all either fit and healthy or very thin should have to live in these conditions, i am very glad you are not the dog warden in my area ///// regards paul

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by furyos

..y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ..u never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

Originally Posted by elf

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

Well, I just know Mrs. Keizer from one dog show and of stories of several Saarloos owners and the (very reliable) person Michael talked of - none of them positive.
I don´t know many of her dogs all I have seen haven´t been very good, looking at the standart and all of them have been shy but that may be accidential, maybe I only saw the wrong dogs.
But I just had a look at the datas of her kennel at wolfdog.org and besides the fact that none of her breeding dogs ever made a bonitation and that she never bothered to show them to a specialised judge or to show their HD-results, I have to say that for me a good selection and breeding program is something very different. She repeated the O-litter pairing one year later and the A-litter pairing 4 years later, if you look at the pedigrees there is not much variety over 10 years.
I personally think there are a lot of people that are much better sources for information and breeding for our breed.

So you may be right about her kind of dog keeping but I don´t know anybody going to official bonitations and clubshows with judges that know their job, that would agree with you about the selection and genetic point. So for me that kind of argumentation is a little bit strange.

Ina


Ina