Norwegian ban on SW and CzW

[Per Olav]

Hi everyone.

It's like a puzzle where some of the pieces are missing.

A friend of MaShiloh says: .I am from former Czechoslovakia and now living
in USA and I am very familiar with Ceskoslovensky Vlcak. This is a docile
and friendly
breed which was eliminated from breeding as a Czech border patrol dog for
the lack(!) of aggression. This was done by Mr. Ing. Jiri Novotny.

Pavel said something like this : I have been there ( a military dog
station) ten years ago, and met no dogs except seniors.

Przemek says: This conditions changed recently when the civilians began to
breed the CzW and the army was not longer interested in continuing the
breeding. However you should always have
in mind that for a few dozens of years this breed was developed by army in
regards to its working abilities.

I really should like to have a brief version of the complete story of the
CsW. When was it eliminated from breeding by the border patrol and why?
When did the civilian start to engage in breeding.
Who is Mr. Novotny, and what's his part of he story? It's really like a
puzzle. I supposed the story of the GSD was a complex one..... :-)

---
Per Olav

[Per Olav]

The Norwegian Ministry of Justice released today its *proposition* to the
new Norwegian dog law.

In the law the Czechsolvakian wolfdog is the only wolfdog breed considerd
dangerous.
The Saarloos wolf hound might however be reconsidered at a later time.
The Norwegian Government lack a English translation of the "Green book" of
the race.

The paragraph regarding wolfdogs will be translated in English and
published on this list.

---
Per Olav

[Tina]

In the law the Czechsolvakian wolfdog is the only wolfdog breed considerd
dangerous.

I am very sorry to hear that this has happened ;(

So far I have only met one here in America, but Sophie was a sweetheart!! I
did send John some pictures of her, maybe he will share them?

[johnslawek]

Hi Tina,

On www.wolfdog.org Sophie is named Frida Crying Wolf under the wolfdogs
index.

Hope all is well and thanks for the contact with Audrey at CASA.

Regards,
John J Slawek

[Tina]

Hope all is well and thanks for the contact with Audrey at CASA.

I hope you can visit one of their events .. I will try coming down soon too

[Pavel]

Hi Per Olav, my friend,
I spoke today with Sona. She get your email and this weekend have a club
meeting, where will speak with a club secretary. They try to send you
much documents as possible.

Pavel

[Per Olav]

Hi to you all.

My dear friend Tonje has translated the Norwegian poposal. On of the
paragraphs is somewhat difficult to understand for simple people like Tonje
and me. An alternate text is place in paranthesis ( - ).
I should like you to study the text. The proposal will be discussed by the
Committee of Justice, Norwegian Parlament. At a later time (tomorrow ?)
I'll send you a list of the members of the Committee of Justice as well as
to the members of Parliament.

I should like to have your oppinion of a uniform reaction to the proposal.
Text follows:


----------
15.5.4 Should crosses between dog and wolf be considered dangerous dogs?

Several instances asked to give recommendations concerning a new dog law,
are in favor of a ban on breeding dog=96wolf crosses and also a prohibition
against keeping or importing such mixed breeds.

Dangerous behavior towards human beings from wolves in their natural
environment is practically nonexistent. As is apparent from section 15.4,
a large number of groups agree that crosses between dog and wolf are
dangerous for people. Internationally, there is an increasing interest in
certain communities in wolf-dog crosses with a high wolf content.

The Department chooses this as a basis and therefore suggests as a starting
point that such animals be defined as dangerous dogs.

There is less agreement on how high such a wolf content should be, for the
animal to be classified as dangerous and therefore banned. The Norwegian
Kennel Club maintain that all dog breeds have roots in animals considered
wolves, and that also many of the dog breeds of today have some association
or other to wolves in the breed=92s early days.

The Department will maintain that the question to be discussed, is how much
inbreeding of wild wolf in dog in recent time should be encompassed by a
ban. In the evaluation of a ban, there should, amongst others, be sought a
definition that is as practical as possible.

Several dog breeds may have wolf in the breeding process prior to the dog
being acknowledged a breed by FCI of which the Norwegian Kennel Club is a
member. In recent time this is the case for the Saarlos Wolfdog and the
CSV. It can not be excluded that the same is the case for eg. The German
Shepherd Dog, Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and the Belgian Sheepdog
breeds. But especially the German Shepherd Dog is an extensively tested
and wellknown dog breed which, even though with a possible early wolf
element, has a normal function in society and is also utilized as a working
dog to a great extent.

The Department has been in doubt to how extensive a ban on dog types that
are a cross between wolf and dog, should be. The Department has as a
starting-point, that it has no grounds to suggest banning of dog types that
are well established in this country. It could be appropriate to restrict
this to dog breeds with original wolf mixing, which are registered in
Norway by the Norwegian Kennel Club before January 1st 2003.

(Alternative translation: It could be appropriate to accept all dog breeds
acknowledged by the Norwegian Kennel Club before January 1st 2003,
regardless of original wolf content)

But if there has been an inbreeding of pure wolf in individuals of the
breed after the breed has been acknowledged by the FCI which the
registrations in the Norwegian Kennel Club are based on, the ban should
encompass offspring from such individuals. With such a restriction, the
Department assumes that the ban can protect against new dog types that are
a mix between wolf and dog, that the prohibition can practically be
enforced, and that established and widespread dog types are not affected by
the ban.

The abovementioned restriction, means that the dog breeds CSV and Saarloos
Wolfdog are not affected by the ban. However, the Department finds it
necessary to evaluate in particular a ban against these breeds. The
Department bases this on that both are breeds with large requirements to
their owners. Precise information on amount of wolf content, has not come
forth. For Saarloos Wolfdog the last inbreeding of wolf was approx. 40
years ago. CSV has a shorter history, and the first successful inbreeding
with wolf in the breeding program was in 1958. These dogs are few in
Norway today. The Department is not aware that they have caused any damage
or harm.

The Swedish Kennel Club decided in 1997 that Saarloss Wolfdog and CSV
should not be allowed to be registered or participate in any Kennel Club
based activity. In a press notice the 29th of April 1997 the Board of the
Swedish Kennel Club said amongst others:
<<One of the breeds in question comes from former Czechoslavakia, is called
ceskoslovensky vlcak and is considered very shy and watchful. It was given
an interrim approval by the FCI in 1992. The other breed is from the
Netherlands, is called saarloos woolfhond, and has a very reserved and
independent manner. This breed has a final FCI approval. Both breeds are
very similar to the wolf, also exteriorwise. The Swedish kennel Club has
previously taken a definite stand against non-registered wolf hybrids.
Amongst others in "remissvar"(written and posted answers?) and in a policy
decision not to allow wolf breeds to participate in any activities within
the organisation. The same applies to the socalled pitbull terrier. One of
the reasons for the strong dissociation from these breedmixes, is a
considerably increased risk of harm to people and other animals.>>

The Department has come to the conclusion that Saarloos Wolfdog should
follow the general rule for the time being, while the CSV should be
considered a dangerous dog according to the new law. It can not be
excluded that it could become relevant to forbid the Saarloos Wolfdog also,
especially if it appears in communities that can not be assumed to have a
responsible attitude to such dogs.

Regards

---
Per Olav

[Per Olav]

Hi Pavel.

Thank you so very, very much. I have received her mail.

[Per Olav]

Dear friends

A short while ago I sent the comments of the Norwegian proposal of banning
the CSV.

The Ministry of Justice says in the last paragraph of its proposal:
"The Department has come to the conclusion that Saarloos Wolfdog should
follow the general rule for the time being, while the CSV should be
considered a dangerous dog according to the new law. It can not be
excluded that it could become relevant to forbid the Saarloos Wolfdog also,
especially if it appears in communities that can not be assumed to have a
responsible attitude to such dogs."

The content of the proposal should be valuable to the SW clubs and their
members. I hope everyone will help spreading the bad news. Maybe uniform
and well prepared answers will help to change the future of the our two
breeds in Norway.

---
Per Olav

[Koos]

Hi Per,

I wanted that you have to notice, that in 1962 or 1963 there was also a wolf
inbreeded in the Saarloos Wolfdog for the last time. So when it have
something to do with years from breeding with a wolf, than it is about the
same time as the CSV.

Greetings,

Letty

[Per Olav]

Hi Letty and thanks

It looks like The Ministry assumes that the percentage of "wolfblood" of
the SW and CSV is equal by the time of FCI approval. If the SW is allowed
because the breed is somewhat older than the CSV , then the Ministry is
assuming that the precentage of "wolfblood" if the SW is reduced due
to the fact that the SW is recognized as a pure breed some years previous
to the CSV.
I know nothing of genetics - therefore my question is : is the portion of
"wolfblood" is reduced by each generation?

I'm offered half a page in the Kennel Club Magazine "Dog sport" for
presenting the breed and commenting the proposal. This question may be of
certain interrest.

[Tina]

I'm offered half a page in the Kennel Club Magazine "Dog sport" for
presenting the breed and commenting the proposal. This question may be of certain interrest.

that sounds wonderful, I would love to see the article after it is printed

[Per Olav]

At 20:27 01.04.2003 -0500, you wrote:

that sounds wonderful, I would love to see the article after it is printed

Sure, and translated as well


---
Per Olav

[Margo]

I know nothing of genetics - therefore my question is : is the portion of
"wolfblood" is reduced by each generation?

No, and this is the "problem". It will stay between 25% and 30%.....

Greetings,
Margo

[Tina]

Sure, and translated as well

yes, maybe we can print a story about you in one of our Newsletters

[Marja]

Hello everyone,

It has been a long time since i have responded to the
news of the club.
It is a great worry to hear this kind of development
toward wolfdogs in Norway.
One thing caught my attention especialy and that was
that the goverment of Norway mentioned "certain
communities" who would not have the right attitude
towards this dog.
The wolfdog speaks to the imagination of people.
Most people do have respect for this dog and are a bit
affraid. This will surely attrack the wrong kind of
people.People who want this reaction from other people
and people who are just seeing the outside of this dog
and don't respect this dog in a good way. And that
is when this dog can get a bad name.It takes a good
kind of people who can "manage" this dog without
provoking the worst in the dog.
I think that the Csw club should take an example on
how the Saarlooswolfdogclub takes care of "their"
dogs.
It will have its disatvantage sure9 i heard once it
had to do with breeding or such), but if you compare
it to this development in Norway it seems to mee it is
a far better alternative.
Now it is in Norway but it can affect other countries
as well.
I think especially in a small country as
ours(Holland),it may take a wrong turn for this kind
of dogs.And i know that other breeds like the
retriever are responsible for bitewounds and not the
Csw or the Saarloos...but people still have the little
red ridinghood syndrom!
Many times i encounter people who find it a beautiful
breed and they only want one because it is such a
pretty dog. And you all know what happens then.
And so i do not agree to promote this dog without a
more restricted way to get a wolfdog. So i say again,
if we want to remain this breed in a good way without
risk of turning things bad then the club should take
its responsibility in this matter.I think this the
only way too prevent that this dog is sold to the
wrong people, and will be sold from the wrong breeder.
And last but not least, i would weep when this dog is
going to meet the same future as some breeds who grew
popular. I hope it is not too late.
I would like to know waht your opinions are over this
matter so please respond.

A howl from me,
marja.

[Per Olav]

Dear friends.

As the Norwegian proposal banning the CSV is likely to be approved (24th of
April), it would be extremely helpful if members of this list would be so
kind as to send a protest by E-mail to the relevant parties.
Below is a suggested text for such a protest, in addition to the relevant
mail-adresses. Since the Saarloos is "spared", at least for the time being,
it is important not to involve Saarloos as well so care has been
taken to keep the Saarloos out of the discussion (i.e. not use arguments of
the type "if Saarloos is OK, the CSV should be OK", it could easily make
them say "OK if it is unfair, we will ban both breeds"). Also if
everyone sends the same protest and the same mail-subject title, this will
be more noticed than spurious individual mails.You will see below that it
would be preferable that copy of each mail also is sent to the Norwegian
media. The media will probably not react (it being Easter and the Norwegian
proposal is to them much less interesting than the war in Iraq), but such
copy to the media will hassle the politicians a bit and is therefore a good
thing!

Also if you have any means or good ideas to crosspost this to any other
lists, people, dog communities - anyone - please do!


----------

Suggested subject-title:
Norwegian proposal to ban the Slovakian National Dog

Dear Committee member,
Dear Members of Parliament,

As a member of the international community, I would like to express my
surprise and, to be blunt, my contempt of the Norwegian proposal to ban the
Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.
Apparently Your Justice Department suspects the Czechoslovakian wolfdog to
be so "wolflike", due to the inbreeding of wolf in the breed's early
history, that it must be deemed a dangerous dog. This is plain nonsense and
shows a shocking ignorance. The Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is no more wolf or
more dangerous than eg. The Belgian Shepherd Dogs, Malamutes or even German
Shepherd Dogs. The "wolfiness" is in the appearance and any wolf traits in
behaviour are modified, as they are in any other domestic dog breed. It is
known as a family and working dog, in addition to being the Slovakian
National Dog and a very far cry from pure wolves or hybrids. As a part of
their image they are supposed to look "wolfy".

I fervently hope You will reconsider the ban of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

Yours Sincerely
(Your name and nationality)

[Margo]

As the Norwegian proposal banning the CSV is likely to be approved (24th
of April), it would be extremely helpful if members of this list would be so
kind as to send a protest by E-mail to the relevant parties. [..]
Also if you have any means or good ideas to crosspost this to any other
lists, people, dog communities - anyone - please do!

OK, we have some good ideas. More info soon ....

Greetings,
Margo

[Per Olav]

OK, we have some good ideas. More info soon ....

Love you my dear

For those of you who are unfamiliar in creating simple mass mails:
1. Open your mail program
2. Create a new mail address
3. Copy and paste the addresses below
4. Save your new address entry as e.g. Norway
5. Create a new mail
6. Copy the subject line and the message text from this mail into your new
mail.
7. Add the addresses from your newly created mail address (maybe you have
to separate the addresses by adding a comma or a semi colon between each of
the addresses in you to-line. Depends on your mail programme and voila -
there it goes!!!

[Tina]

Also if you have any means or good ideas to crosspost this to any other
lists, people, dog communities - anyone - please do!

I just posted the entire letter on all of my dog lists