Differences in bonitations...

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Margo

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

Originally Posted by Hanka

To Vaiva:
In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake"....

When you are a breeder from west Europe (who is not able to go to all bonitations) it is very difficult to judge a right male for your female, when you don’t know also the small details…….. And before I visit a interesting male I can read the Bonitation results, but I miss the small details!

I am glad there is Bonitation, so there is some kind of judgement / measurement about a dog of this breed.
That is the reason I did youth presentation and Bonitation with her. And I am satisfied with my P3 female, but I also would love her when she would have get P14! So that is not my point!

I can imagine that there are differences in measurement (we did measure for example some dogs before we went to Pozna, and some did grow or shrink on Bonitation. We are not experts, so maybe we did measure wrong!) When a dog is feeling uncomfortable, he/she has in much of the cases not the same height when he/she is relaxed.

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)?
And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

And by the way in the Bonitation result of my female on wolfdog is now: Og but in my official paper is Of ! And is was obvious that she did not deserve g with her reaction on the threatening!
So this a small mistake in the info on wolfdog , so please Margo will you change this?

Originally Posted by Margo

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px" Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults... And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them....

Originally Posted by Hanka

So great )). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream

I hope this all will work out in future and there will come international rules for all clubs!

[saschia]

Originally Posted by mijke

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Yes Mijke, that can happen. The eye of a dog is changing throughout its life and can become darker (often does, actually). Also, it is very hard to say what is light brown and what is dark brown, as well as it is hard to say what is dark amber and what already light brown. There are thing which also develop - posture for example, movement, if the dog is young or tired or in bad condition, it can get worse marks than after some growing and training. Some thing can get better, but it is not for judge to decide if the problem is because of lack of movement or because of inborn condition. That is for you - you want to get good marks, work with your dog ! ;o)

Originally Posted by mijke

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)? And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?
Good think for example would be, if in the database the official photo of the dog was one where the dog has mouth closed, so that you could see if the lips are perfect or slightly imperfect. But that is not always possible of course.
The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by saschia

Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

Very easy answer, he is bred by us and Michael was involved and Christian has a little problem with reality-awareness and especially with us since we refused to sell him a puppy. I think we all should ignore someone that is able to insult, I think, 5 persons in one statement about a happening he didn´t join in. Telling long stories about things he also didn´t see but imagine, like he did here. And even if you both would have been there you would have the feeling you had been on a totally different occasion. Out of long years sad experience I can tell you he will go on forever if you react in any way.
I will get this cleared by a lawyer like I promised him the last time he wrote lies and give no more statements to this poor soul.


But coming back to the topic of this thread that is of much more importance than stupid fights.

Originally Posted by saschia

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. During bonitation a dog normally isn´t that much relaxed that it shows slack lips if it doesn´t really have some. What I also have seen more often are not coloured toenails what isn´t of too much importance but a thing I would also like to be able to see in the code.

Originally Posted by saschia

The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Ina

[saschia]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. ... There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Yes, this I agree with completely. I'll try to start discussion on this topic in the club.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mijke

And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

You must thanks God because is only you take a car and drive...
for me is 24 hours traveling without stop directly only for arrive at europe ( germany) without count made some exams in the dogs 6 months before travel.

[massimo]

Christian my friend,
i'm sorry to tell you that from what i see (which is my only judgement parameter, NEVER what others tell me) mr. Michael Eichorn is capable to handle dogs and get respect from them.
From what I've seen, he has never caused violence to one of his dogs in front of me. (blue tongue seems to me a myth effect of a supposed cause...)
I must repeat... letting your dog be your boss is MORE violence to the dog than giving him some strong leash pulls or putting him on the ground.
I would give my dog to Michael if he had character problems without any doubt.
Owners of Gorbi are fantastic owners, fantastic people, fantastic friends.
They are in charge of Gorbi as much as you are of Myla. But they have time to recover and take charge, I'm not so sure if you can do the same.
Instead of saying they were wrong owners, I prefer saying they need to learn, as maybe also you should have learned in the past.

.... how long will this thread last?

[*Satu]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

You must thanks God because is only you take a car and drive...
for me is 24 hours traveling without stop directly only for arrive at europe ( germany) without count made some exams in the dogs 6 months before travel.

No no no. It take over 48 hours driving one way over 2000km and one week... normal is over 5000km one trip

and after all I think why?

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by *Satu

No no no. It take over 48 hours driving one way over 2000km and one week... normal is over 5000km one trip

and after all I think why?

5.000km is a normal dogshow/workingtrial trip , for I back from São Paulo ( where I stop in airport) to Rio grande do Sul ( where I live) is about 1500km. but I have no idea how many kilometer are São Paulo > germany.
Being a survivor of Q class for 9 hours

Well, I have no doubt's about why I do it and why I intend repeat it for bring new bloodlines to my country, I love this breed since I was child and they're all I have ever wait, for ME the perfect dog breed, healthiest in comparation with any other dog breed of the same group, extremly workable, excelent behaviour and with everything good and usefull wolves have like endurance, agility and inteligence. I'm sure that here more people share the same opinion as me in this point, but this is a personal opinion.
Unhapply we all know that this breed isn't easy to select because high inbreeding spreaded, only 5 bloodlines is to little ammount for a breed like that, luckly the breed still isn't popular and so this turn the CzW world breed pretty little, everyone well informed try to knows what everyones do, that happen because every unique good blooded litter have such importance to the breed worldwide that turn important for every good breeder know how the puppies developed, if they're healty and where they are, maybe for future use sometimes.

In truth and in my very personal opinion is simply unbeliveable how can someone think in put outside breeding a healty, wolfish, tipical, correct stud with unique bloodline because 1 centimeter in a breed wich need's genetic diversity! It's something I cannot cope, I really must greetings the judge Oskár Dór for the great common sense and future sight he have, we need more judges able and with such knowledge like he!
People, czwchoslovakian wolfdogs arent german shepherds wich we can put outside breeding because behaviour problems, because something not good on standard, we dont have such genetic pool!!
Iran zemplinska Oblast is for me a good exemple of how big waste can be put outbreeding a dog because a little defect, he is a beauty blood refreshment for a good number of CzW, believe me or not futurelly dogs like he will make difference and nobody will complain with his 64cm and brown eyes.
Suppose we start now to follow a rigorous selection, only dogs at standard can mate and any dog, independent of past and lines, that have problems wich isn't write on standard or that was write on the old breed book will be put out of reprodutcion because are dogs disqualified as stud... how many work breeders will have for end with the same problem?
We will put outside reproduction a dog with new bloodline because he was 64 or 63cm, prognat maybe, and so? we will lost some well done bloodlines because stupid selection, inbreeding tends to increase and these same problems wich was avoided by selection will start appear again, like prognatism, less high and so on, remembering that the dogs will tend to comes with illness bonus because less genetic diversity, less imunity,less fertility, homozigosis in recessive bad genes... will it be good? woudn't be better, use carefully a unique bloodlined dog for up the genetic pool even if this dog isn't the "standard", but still preserve tipicity?
I really dont bother if the dog have such little problems for the standard when I will chose a stud dog, for me important is bring new and healthy open bloodlines, after this problem be solved and we have better genetic diversity we will have time to work in details selection and turn it better and better.. otherwise it will be impossible if we start already now with a rigorous selection, now when we have no conditions to do it.

Continues working serious and independand of where you live you will help in the evolution of the breed, want's better excuse for accept travel far away only for mate dogs or bring new bloodline?

Really, this isn't the first topic I see Czech people saying that Czech bonitation or Czech club is better or more rigorous than Slovakians, I can say that this pass a really bad image of the Czech Club even for who not know Czech Club and his rules personally (like me), seems that Slovak club is so superior and self-secure that don't need bother writing who is the best. I have nothing against Czech or Slovaks, please, I know have excelents breeders in the two sides as pretty serious work, but is what it seems for who read it from outside, so, please, try avoid comments like that.

best regards to everyone and please, think in the poor souls wich live far away and depend of Bonitations, photos and more relyabe informations about the dogs before think in make a big travel for try a mate.