About wolfhybrids

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 19:59

Here a picture from some trained wolves who know 20(!) commands and are feed from hand! The wolfscience center in austria proves that it is possible.

yukidomari · 12-11-2010, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Here a picture from some trained wolves who know 20(!) commands and are feed from hand! The wolfscience center in austria proves that it is possible.

It is also possible to train Tigers and whales, but I don't recommend it to 99% of people... and certainly I don't think those are safe domesticated animal to live in regular homes and cities with children and other animals.

hanninadina · 12-11-2010, 22:26

Please read this first scientific research about wolfdogs, which a russian Prof. Dr. called Iljin made in the 1920ies. He published it in 1941. The funny thing is that he mentioned a lot of german researchers of wolfdogs in that paper! But it is more genetic and morphologic and almost no behaviour like.

http://www.wolfdogforum.com/forum/vi....php?f=11&t=89

By the way, did you knew that in russian in that time already black wolves were seen? And not only black, but there was an area were blue wolves were! I only know american blue wolfdogs.

hanninadina · 13-11-2010, 09:55

That is the difference between Michael and me, I understand these animals and he doesn´t. That is why I am able to work with them and he is not. There are a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge about dogs and the pure breed wolfdogs, but are not able to notice the difference in handling high content and pures. But that´s life, not everybody can all. And I am not a dog trainer and I never want to be.

I never said that a wolf or high content is a pet like a Labrador. I would never say that a Ferrari is a family car either.

In this thread was the question, is it possible to cross in again a wolf for new fresh blood in the breed csw.

The wolves from the wolfscience center are american ones. They are mostly easier to train than europaen ones. But of course you find under the europaen ones wolves who are able to be trained like this.

The way how they train their wolves is a way how many dog trainers train their dogs! I am really wondering why a person like Michael, who claims to be a dog trainer too, seems not to know it. So it is a way how to train! That is his problem, he mostly wants to "force" a dog to a thing. Therefore he is well known not only in csw world but in the meantime also in wildanimal park world, because they had the experience how he does act with his dogs.

There are a lot of dog trainers who train in that way like he does. Ok, it is a way. But it is the wrong way if you want to be successful with wolves and high contents. In the US and Canada are a lot of dog trainers who train wolves and high content wolfdogs without any problem. But of course they are not german shepards!

But listining to 20 commands is much more than the average dog is able to. 5 commands is normal.

I can only say, talk to your animal. If you don´t talk, it will not understand. If it will not understand you, it will never do what you want. And one thing is for sure, they are much more intelligent like a dog and therefore they learn faster - if they want and if you have the bond to them.

Beside herding dogs are almost untrainable, there are some pure dog breeds who I would say are more difficult to train than a wolf or a hc. Remember, I do not talk about a shy wild wolf! To the difference I gave you the link to my website. I know it is very hard to understand. Legions of biologist did researches wolves and did not find out the difference, because for them one wolf was like the other. They seem not to realize that wolves have different characters like dogs and we as human beings do have of course too.

Have a nice weekend.

Christian

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-11-2010, 10:25

I would rather say the main difference between you two is that Michael is able to see the animal in itself instead of projecting his own wishes and emotions on it.

Nobody denied it is possible to cross a wolf into the breed, the question was if it makes sense. And if you are not able to see the difference between an animal no matter if Northamerican Wolf, European Wolf, Orca or Tiger showing learned behaviour in close sight of a treat in it´s normal surrounding, and a working dog that will work concentrated for several hours in no matter what surrounding every day just for the benefit of working for his owner and will do that amidst traffic, people, massive noise over and over again, there is no use into discussing this matter with you at all. Cause what you obviously don´t seem to be able to understand is that though the way an animal (inclusive our own dogs by the way) learns a command per se is the same it has nothing to do with his ability to show this command obediently under all circumstances. And if you think that any real working dog in this world has never in his live a moment in which it will not have to be asked to do his work instead of something it would rather like to do instead you have never seen a working dog.
And by the way the founder of the German Shepherd did understand this fact very, very well, as well as the scientists in Austria.

Ina

hanninadina · 13-11-2010, 10:46

Is it so, that working dogs work for the benefit of their owners?

As far I know from professionals, like the police in my country - the chief of them is my friend and expert in front of courts - they teach their dogs with toys for confirmation, well done. A few with food. But the same way they do teach the wolves in wolfscience center. Only in a positive way. Of course there are dogs who do it without any positive treatman only for their owner.

It must be said that the wolfcenter does not look especially for characters of wolves. They only wanted to have american ones. And because they were and are new to the americans they listened to Monty Sloan. The next wolves will be hopefully some "dog" wolves. But that shows and confirms again although they did not choose if their wolves have the abilites to work, they were able to teach them.

I do not know if you understand, but as a dog breeder you look for a breeding male who has the abilites and character to make the puppys better and if your female has a fault, the male should make it better and not worser. So you look for the "special" male. And that must be done of course with the wolves too, when you want to work with them. And it is possible because their are lines in the US who proved to be able to.

It was not the question, if the wolf will be able to work in the city center with loud noise. But even this the founder of the german shepard wrote, that the wild court adult wolves he knew were able to live in the city with all his noise, trains and people after socialization. I will send you the link, now where we have the english version here too. I only knew it from the german version.

So Ina, it is much more possible than most people thought. But that is old stuff from almost 100 years ago and seems to be forgotten.

Mikael · 13-11-2010, 11:16

/ Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-11-2010, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

/ Mikael

Thank you for reminding me not to feed the troll, I apologize.

Ina

Hanka · 13-11-2010, 13:38

Hi hi, right smiles Mikael

hanninadina · 14-11-2010, 11:13

http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false

On page 11 in the middle, it starts with:

"It is well known ...."

The founder from the gsd von Stephanitz confirms, yeah that it is well known that it is not a problem to get used "wilddogs" for example wolves to live in the city. By the way the question mark, which is in this american version is in the german version not existing!

That it is objectively possible, to live with wolves, von Stephanitz confirms more than 100 years back. That it from a certain point does not make sense in a pure breed used for specific work is obviously. He claims in his book too, that he did it and found the right "mixture" and that there is no need for other breeders to cross in more wolfblood.

For me is the point that you people understand that a wolfdog F 1 - F 4 is nothing else than a wolfdog and not a unpredicable beast. If you can not read a csw F 5, F 6, you will not be able to read a F 1. But it is nothing special for the engaged dog owner. You all would help the breed csw if you do not talk about things which are simply not true. Because it is always a reason of genes how a wolfdog behaves and not which generation after a wolf he is. And all people I know who owns F 1- F 4 have less problems with these dogs than most people have and had with their csw, especially when they were young. As I wrote already, no wonder having these hyperactiv "high quality" working german shepards in them. Every breeder in the US and Canada knows if you breed a wolf to a german shepard, people will get problems - like most people with csw had and have. So you can look to France, like I already wrote too, there are a lot of csw in shelters. People were badly informed from money making breeders and getting huge problems. And the bad thing is that these animals are well known being aggressiv. It will get over to all csw - hopefully only in france - that it is an agressiv breed.

fenris · 14-11-2010, 19:18

I will remind you all while comparing the Vlcak with the typical american "wolfhybrid" some important distinguishing points:
1. Most wolfhybrids are misrepresented with their wolfblood percentage.
2. Most real high-percentage wolfhybrids are not kept as ordinary dogs, but have special made enclosures and are not let free running in the park! They need special care and during such circumstances a lot of them behave well. This cases cannot be compared to the ordinary CWD
3. Lots of the male hybrids are castrated to prevent difficult bahavior.
4. All high-percentage wolfhybrids are pulled from their mothers as early as 10 days old and hand-raised and bottled fed by humans to prevent shyness. Not like a dog who is nursed by their mothers. This makes a huge difference.
5. Wolfhybrid enthusiasts tell you about the good examples, but forget to tell you about all the animals put to death because they couldnt be handled or became aggressive.
6. High percentage wolfhybrids have much stronger prey-drive than dogs that can not be suppressed by training. One or two examples of the opposite doesnt change this fact.

I want to emphasize this facts since comparing a well bahaved wolf who is cared for with the special requirements needed to keep such an animal with a Vlcak that is supposed to behave and act like a dog is a little naive!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-11-2010, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And breeding with wolves of course you do not have to take wild ones, but in captivity raised ones, who have proven that they are able to work.

Sorry, but if this guy is really serious about that, he proves himself not a very competent person (at least on this topic).
But it may probably only be credited to his lack of experience (at least on this topic).

Hi Yukidomari,
I've been to that institute in Austria.
Marvelous work!
But it's just a matter of training and pure positive reinforcement.
They are no pets or dogs in a wolf's shape at all.
The main difference between dogs (and a CSV is a dog) and wolves is, that you never can force a wolf doing things he or she doesn't want to do.
No matter how tamed the animal is.
And no matter were the animal was born and raised.
Either in the wild or in a sanctuary.

Kind regards,
Michael

13-11-2010, 09:55	#4
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	That is the difference between Michael and me, I understand these animals and he doesn´t. That is why I am able to work with them and he is not. There are a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge about dogs and the pure breed wolfdogs, but are not able to notice the difference in handling high content and pures. But that´s life, not everybody can all. And I am not a dog trainer and I never want to be. I never said that a wolf or high content is a pet like a Labrador. I would never say that a Ferrari is a family car either. In this thread was the question, is it possible to cross in again a wolf for new fresh blood in the breed csw. The wolves from the wolfscience center are american ones. They are mostly easier to train than europaen ones. But of course you find under the europaen ones wolves who are able to be trained like this. The way how they train their wolves is a way how many dog trainers train their dogs! I am really wondering why a person like Michael, who claims to be a dog trainer too, seems not to know it. So it is a way how to train! That is his problem, he mostly wants to "force" a dog to a thing. Therefore he is well known not only in csw world but in the meantime also in wildanimal park world, because they had the experience how he does act with his dogs. There are a lot of dog trainers who train in that way like he does. Ok, it is a way. But it is the wrong way if you want to be successful with wolves and high contents. In the US and Canada are a lot of dog trainers who train wolves and high content wolfdogs without any problem. But of course they are not german shepards! But listining to 20 commands is much more than the average dog is able to. 5 commands is normal. I can only say, talk to your animal. If you don´t talk, it will not understand. If it will not understand you, it will never do what you want. And one thing is for sure, they are much more intelligent like a dog and therefore they learn faster - if they want and if you have the bond to them. Beside herding dogs are almost untrainable, there are some pure dog breeds who I would say are more difficult to train than a wolf or a hc. Remember, I do not talk about a shy wild wolf! To the difference I gave you the link to my website. I know it is very hard to understand. Legions of biologist did researches wolves and did not find out the difference, because for them one wolf was like the other. They seem not to realize that wolves have different characters like dogs and we as human beings do have of course too. Have a nice weekend. Christian Last edited by hanninadina; 13-11-2010 at 10:07.

13-11-2010, 10:46	#6
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Is it so, that working dogs work for the benefit of their owners? As far I know from professionals, like the police in my country - the chief of them is my friend and expert in front of courts - they teach their dogs with toys for confirmation, well done. A few with food. But the same way they do teach the wolves in wolfscience center. Only in a positive way. Of course there are dogs who do it without any positive treatman only for their owner. It must be said that the wolfcenter does not look especially for characters of wolves. They only wanted to have american ones. And because they were and are new to the americans they listened to Monty Sloan. The next wolves will be hopefully some "dog" wolves. But that shows and confirms again although they did not choose if their wolves have the abilites to work, they were able to teach them. I do not know if you understand, but as a dog breeder you look for a breeding male who has the abilites and character to make the puppys better and if your female has a fault, the male should make it better and not worser. So you look for the "special" male. And that must be done of course with the wolves too, when you want to work with them. And it is possible because their are lines in the US who proved to be able to. It was not the question, if the wolf will be able to work in the city center with loud noise. But even this the founder of the german shepard wrote, that the wild court adult wolves he knew were able to live in the city with all his noise, trains and people after socialization. I will send you the link, now where we have the english version here too. I only knew it from the german version. So Ina, it is much more possible than most people thought. But that is old stuff from almost 100 years ago and seems to be forgotten. Last edited by hanninadina; 13-11-2010 at 10:50.

13-11-2010, 11:16	#7
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	/ Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

14-11-2010, 11:13	#10
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false On page 11 in the middle, it starts with: "It is well known ...." The founder from the gsd von Stephanitz confirms, yeah that it is well known that it is not a problem to get used "wilddogs" for example wolves to live in the city. By the way the question mark, which is in this american version is in the german version not existing! That it is objectively possible, to live with wolves, von Stephanitz confirms more than 100 years back. That it from a certain point does not make sense in a pure breed used for specific work is obviously. He claims in his book too, that he did it and found the right "mixture" and that there is no need for other breeders to cross in more wolfblood. For me is the point that you people understand that a wolfdog F 1 - F 4 is nothing else than a wolfdog and not a unpredicable beast. If you can not read a csw F 5, F 6, you will not be able to read a F 1. But it is nothing special for the engaged dog owner. You all would help the breed csw if you do not talk about things which are simply not true. Because it is always a reason of genes how a wolfdog behaves and not which generation after a wolf he is. And all people I know who owns F 1- F 4 have less problems with these dogs than most people have and had with their csw, especially when they were young. As I wrote already, no wonder having these hyperactiv "high quality" working german shepards in them. Every breeder in the US and Canada knows if you breed a wolf to a german shepard, people will get problems - like most people with csw had and have. So you can look to France, like I already wrote too, there are a lot of csw in shelters. People were badly informed from money making breeders and getting huge problems. And the bad thing is that these animals are well known being aggressiv. It will get over to all csw - hopefully only in france - that it is an agressiv breed. Last edited by hanninadina; 14-11-2010 at 11:15.

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12-11-2010, 22:26	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Please read this first scientific research about wolfdogs, which a russian Prof. Dr. called Iljin made in the 1920ies. He published it in 1941. The funny thing is that he mentioned a lot of german researchers of wolfdogs in that paper! But it is more genetic and morphologic and almost no behaviour like. http://www.wolfdogforum.com/forum/vi....php?f=11&t=89 By the way, did you knew that in russian in that time already black wolves were seen? And not only black, but there was an area were blue wolves were! I only know american blue wolfdogs.

13-11-2010, 10:25	#5
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I would rather say the main difference between you two is that Michael is able to see the animal in itself instead of projecting his own wishes and emotions on it. Nobody denied it is possible to cross a wolf into the breed, the question was if it makes sense. And if you are not able to see the difference between an animal no matter if Northamerican Wolf, European Wolf, Orca or Tiger showing learned behaviour in close sight of a treat in it´s normal surrounding, and a working dog that will work concentrated for several hours in no matter what surrounding every day just for the benefit of working for his owner and will do that amidst traffic, people, massive noise over and over again, there is no use into discussing this matter with you at all. Cause what you obviously don´t seem to be able to understand is that though the way an animal (inclusive our own dogs by the way) learns a command per se is the same it has nothing to do with his ability to show this command obediently under all circumstances. And if you think that any real working dog in this world has never in his live a moment in which it will not have to be asked to do his work instead of something it would rather like to do instead you have never seen a working dog. And by the way the founder of the German Shepherd did understand this fact very, very well, as well as the scientists in Austria. Ina

13-11-2010, 13:38	#9
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi hi, right smiles Mikael

14-11-2010, 19:18	#11
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	I will remind you all while comparing the Vlcak with the typical american "wolfhybrid" some important distinguishing points: 1. Most wolfhybrids are misrepresented with their wolfblood percentage. 2. Most real high-percentage wolfhybrids are not kept as ordinary dogs, but have special made enclosures and are not let free running in the park! They need special care and during such circumstances a lot of them behave well. This cases cannot be compared to the ordinary CWD 3. Lots of the male hybrids are castrated to prevent difficult bahavior. 4. All high-percentage wolfhybrids are pulled from their mothers as early as 10 days old and hand-raised and bottled fed by humans to prevent shyness. Not like a dog who is nursed by their mothers. This makes a huge difference. 5. Wolfhybrid enthusiasts tell you about the good examples, but forget to tell you about all the animals put to death because they couldnt be handled or became aggressive. 6. High percentage wolfhybrids have much stronger prey-drive than dogs that can not be suppressed by training. One or two examples of the opposite doesnt change this fact. I want to emphasize this facts since comparing a well bahaved wolf who is cared for with the special requirements needed to keep such an animal with a Vlcak that is supposed to behave and act like a dog is a little naive!