MISSING credibility of the French pedigrees
 

Basing on the number of "strange" cases in France and the OBVIOUS cheating of the French pedigrees; basing on the number of 100% mixes (mongrels) born in this country. And taking into consideration the fact that the putting AWD in the breed was KNOWN and nothing has been done against it till now - and because the AWD mongrels spred in France more and more that at the moment only VERY FEW French kennels still breed REAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs I must ask about the credibility of the French pedigrees.

It seems that the French pedigrees are at the moment only a useless piece of paper which guaranty NOTHING. They do not even keep the the BASIC FCI rules about breeding pedigree dogs.

Till the case will be solved please DO NOT BUY ANY PUPPIES FROM FRANCE from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the AWD producers. If you are importing a puppy from France please ask on the forum if the puppy is purebreed because there are MANY known mongrels which are still not marked as "MIXES" in the database but will be listed soon or later (with the remark "DOG NOT FOR BREEDING).

If you like such type of the dogs please contact the American Wolfdog breeders or Saarloos breeders to get a puppy. Believe me - it is much cheaper than the AWD-cross with FCI fake CsW pedigree...

mais pour qui il se prend ???? Pour insulter ainsi tous les eleveurs francais ????

but for who he takes?? To insult and all french farmers??

hello!

particulier, un clt,venant de France, pere tcheque mere Francaise,c'est le plus beau

comme les votres

en Angleterre,comme en France,il y a du petit peuple,
c'est deplorable,et il est administrateur?? Bravo



Particular, a CzW coming from france with Czech Father and French Mother, like yours.
In England as in France there are "Small people", it's deplorable, and he is Admin?? Bravo!

Admin, words are important. There is in France a lot of clean breeders, with pure CSV lines.

Please let the others French breeders out of your hunt. All beautifull french dogs are not mixed, you know? ;)

Thx

@Martial & Fabrice, please moderate your Admin.

P.S. Best regards from France, to every CSV lover, all around the world.

A la mode anglaise merci reverso je reprends votre post sur le forum anglais histoire de continuer ici aussi (ah désolée je ferais pas d'efforts perso pour cet écrit)

CERTAINLY NOT FOR GOD it would come out ariminium when has you mr the administrator(director) to dare to question chaa' rey charushila of the domain of the black passo del lupo coomb and spood dumbiera, to dare to question delco said hu' nass about the domain of the black coomb which measures has More of 70cm in the withers and the lineage have ca is going to make still some hay all this Mollynière de l' Oscale and passo del lupo and said I opposite and on a boxing ring that my dogs are shit but clearly the tests are very present thus to arreter to take you for the cat's whiskers and to look at what you take(bring) out before saying that eleveurs francais makes some shit ......................... seriousness take(go,bring) out with your dogs go to make a tour(ballot) in bit ca is going to make you think about the fact that has to be a Czech really
:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twis ted::twisted::twisted:

Ps ===== > reassure I you really know the race?????

best regards
vero et sa meute from FRANCEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

et bien les eleveurs francais sont des "MERDES" mais demander qu'on achète plus en france pathétique

désolée je traduis pas comme lui je fais pas d'effort:p


Well, the french breeders are "Shit",but ask people to not buy more French dogs, it's pathetic.

Admin, do you realize what you write? French breeders produce all the shit! Bad breeders or apprentice sorcerers exist in ALL countries! So it's not because you suspect certain breeders, that you have criticize the entire French production! Be careful Admin, your words can cause great harm !!

The credibility was lost a looooong time ago and as it is hard to keep 100% track of pure / not pure CsV, me and many many others breeder´s will not buy ore use ANY dogs from France until the situation is solved...

I guess the French CsV club has some work to do and they better start now !!!

The pureness of your Vlcaks has bean questioned, any serious breeder outside of France will not use your dogs / offspring’s, simply because of the risk of that there own breeding of pure breed dogs will come into question...

Before the DNA test´s are made there will not be any way to prove by 100% that the pedigree´s are pure... When Cs Vlcaks start to look and act like AWD, Saarloos or even Husky´s it is kind of obvious that the CsV club of the county must act... So before you blame the Admin, blame the CsV Club of France / the mix breeders

Regards / Mikael

Yes they will, but only simply because that they are true ! ;)

Regards / Mikael

But not for ALL french breeders !

All of them... all of them... all of them...

You all missed this part

And that's a sad truth, very few kennels still breed real CzW, the main problem is in france and for what we can see responsible breeders and people which is getting affected by these mixes are only waiting the time pass, the breeders give up on breed mixes and keep their own work without bother for all situation.
If we put it together with the fact that when we read French forum about these mixes the main thing we can see is "Admin is jealous, people is jealous, all the world is jealous, my dogs have DNA LALALALALA I cant hear you all, my dog is immune as it have DNA, they are nice wolfish dogs then they are good to the breed, jealous jealous jealous", the credibility gets completely lost.

Of course not, but if not even the French CsV club can say what is pure and what is not a pure CsV how can we trust any breeder :| ???

It is a French problem that is started by a very very few breeders in France, but as long as the CsV club in France can not control it, not many breeder´s outside of France will take the risk of buying a dog that later on might turn up on the list as a not pure Vlcak.

Sorry, but you must clean up your back yard to gain the trust again...

Very best regards / Mikael

quand on lit ce que l'administrateur de WD,pense de la production Italienne ,Francaise, et meme Tcheque

j'en appelle a tous les eleveurs de ces pays pour ne plus vendre de clt aux Anglais,qu'ils se debrouillent avec leur cheptel

decidement, l'Angleterre restera " A JAMAIS" une petite ile, avec des gens a l'esprit aussi etriqué que leur pays


When you read what wolfdog.org Admin think about the breeders in italy, Czech and France, I ask all the breeders of these countries to not more sell dogs to England, that they cope with their breeding stock.

Definetely, England will remain "forever" as a small island, with people with the spirit so narrow as their country

sorry
for my English ,but the translator is a shit: Lol:
are you sure, you av'nt clt,strange?

perhaps you will be the nex ,be carrefull, the admi, is god!

c'est sur que quand on voit ce que vous avez fait avec les tamaskans ....... et les derives qui ont suivies .......... vous êtes mal partis pour critiquer la façon dont certains éleveurs français travaillent........



Surely when you see what they've done with Tamaskans and their derivates, you're not right in criticize the way that some french breeders are working

English at the English forum please :|

Very best regards / Mikael

Admi post in English on the French forum so

you do like us, you translate ,or you learn French!!like y "Baragouine" Anglais

and verry best regards to

Who are you to tell people what to do ?

Stop hide behind the pseudo Admin and after you can make that kind of decision, else you are nothing

Why the hostilities in responses? I see Admin simply wrote that there are multiple kennels are using mixes, that not to buy from such kennel, .. That's all. Seems like a common sense warning when someone wants a specific purebred breed. I didn't see where Admin wrote 'don't buy vlcaks from France, period'...

For those protesting, are you really saying there is not widespread mixes being used? :shock:

I agree with you but the story is a lot more complicated.
Now Admin tell to people "do not buy french dog because ...". He can't say this thing and stay hidden. This is too important.

First, what have English breeding to do in a topic about French breeding?
We all know what's going on in England and how the problem started, there are several topics about it even on this forum, why bring it to this topic? England situation is less critical as CzW is not an "The Kennel Club" breed and The Kennel Club is not FCI.

Second, Admin is not telling people what to do, nor accusing all French breeders of cheat, is that hard to read the topic with cool mind? Seems you're all only jumping on Admins neck because he is simply the Admin. :lol:

Dear french ( not all but this who have "not clear hands"), WHY ATACK admin but not WANT a clear situation in Your country - make test, put out falshe dogs, and all be ok, NOW YOU only cry but nothing make in this situation

bravo admin - You are great.

ok who he mas say? say for us please :)

je suis d'accord avec ca, c facile de discréditer et de rester bien planké derrière son écran... maintenant moi je trouves, ke toutes les accusations fondées ou pas sont trés importantes et ca devient vraiment trés critikes surtout pour les retombées d 'élevage francais ki sont clean (il y en a kand même)...
tout cela est de la discrémination pur et simple, car vous mettez tous les éleveurs dans le même sac... vous voulez sauver la race , je suis bien d'accord avec vous sur cela, mais avant faut des preuves de ce ke l'on apporte, personnellement étant simple proprio de cl, je suis pas d'accord k'on mette dans le même sac tout le monde.... c trés grave de dire sur un forum public "n'achetez pas de chiots francais" et j'avoue ke cela est choquant... si j'étais éleveuse clean, je ne laisserais surement pas tomber de telles accusations... et je procéderais juridiquement..
j'fais pas d'effort dans mon parler non plus.....lol!!

by,

Eliot du clan Reyzesnec
born in november 2009

and his friends,two Irish Wolfhounds
http://www.zimagez.com/miniature/dsc052257.jpg

amitiés

stéphen, merci de votre acceuil!

I do not understand your message :/

I am not against Admin. I am not a breeder or a owner of CLT. I understand and I am ok with the idea of MIX and remove MIX from the loop.

But currently there is no real proof and this is the main problem. You can not accuse without proof and even more when you do it anonymously. you are innocent until proven guilty

The guilty party will never come to you and say "yes I have ...". Until now Admin did not give us a way to prove a dog is a MIX.

When he say "do not buy french dog" he goes too far. He can give his opinion or tell to people "I think ..." but people who do not follow all discussions can't have a complete opinion with the main message of this topic.

If he write a message with all his arguments and then say "I think you should not buy french dogs except if you know what you do" I will be ok with him.

At the end, if you do not know who Admin is, you can not give importance to his opinion. Maybe he have his reason to destroy the french dogs, or french breeder or french or maybe he only like dogs and hate MIX, we do not know.

sorry but arguments are in this ALL forum this are only one from all message. Read all forum and see - admin are rigth, and only he and others people try have pure breed and change this situation, but not french breeder ( not alls, are and they who work too) for this time we have only worts " jelous, stupid admin, not important pure is important only wolfish mix who not are similar to CSV and moore bla bla bla". Who mas clean Your country - french or others lands. for this admin say very correct- now suspicious are almost all breeder and dogs. Maybe is time begin make cleaning self? or fopr You all FR dogs who naming in all themat are PURE and super duper ok?

ooo this same style like "jelous and bla bla bla"
p.s.
why admin ( I too ) mas love a MIX with a CSV pedigree? MIX are ONLY PET CLAS CATEGORY animal but not moore- no breed, no pedigree no purity, NOTHING only animal for love - PET

There IS a limitation written in the standard. The FCI breed standard (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/332GB99_en.doc) describe Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as dogs with "above average size". Not "small" and not "huge" - but above average size. As "average size" FCI list breeds where males are about 65cm high. All breeds growing over 70cm are described as HUGE breeds.
So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. Females should be smaller and easy to recognize (+ "Sex should be unmistakable.")


But here we do not speak about standard but about outcrossings. It is typical that outcrosses lead to high dogs. And the mixes with Saarloos proved this - even if the parents were small the puppies were very high dogs. The Crying Wolf kennel was known for years for dogs which hardly reach the minimum size. Now we have mystery litters where dogs grow bigger even than the Czech lines.
The same is visible in France where out of parent of average and above the average size we get dogs (where it is known that they are AWD-crosses) which reach much more that 70cm at early age.

The size is not the only proof but can be another advice that something is really going on in the mentioned lines.


my dod 73 cm, it's not a Clt fot Admi, to big? watt a pitty

"Definetely, England will remain "forever" as a small island, with people with the spirit so narrow as their country."

But not as narrow in mind as you appear to be judging by that statement.

If you bother to look you will find that the English breeders have had their fair share of criticism on this forum and rightly so, they deserve it. They also get frequent criticism from the English themselves. Now there's a shock eh.(Note sarcasm)

The crap in the UK doesn't excuse the crap in France and remember, it was one of your own suspect French breeders that sent their saarloos and csv mixes to the UK.

There is a saying, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Something you may wish to remember.

Taz

Watchwolf, did you read the thread on here where admin did post his or her argument?

Maybe wanting to know who Admin is or accuser's name is a cultural difference? For me, I don't care who Admin is or anyone else,.. If the words are true, that is more important to me.

Besides, photos from questionable kennels can be seen if you search. My own amateur eyes see those photos posted here and elsewhere, .. ...

Maybe a better more "culturally sensitive" solution, is to not buy, or buy with caution, any dog belonging to or descended from this list (regardless of where the dog is born). I assume all suspected mixes have been added to this list:

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...=mix&wtype=dog

And if buying with the intention to breed, maybe also use caution with this list?

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...-fci&wtype=dog

I do hope people of all nations take responsibility, love and care for the health and purity of our breed.

bravo, je pense la meme chose

believe it or not there are csv owners in England as i am sure there is in France that wish the best for this breed and want them to be kept pure.. tarring all people with the same brush is not right or fair.

i'm shure , but admi wright

It seems that the French pedigrees are at the moment only a useless piece of paper which guaranty NOTHING. They do not even keep the the BASIC FCI rules about breeding pedigree dogs.
i think , that not the best thing to say

we are ,all, on the same world, wolf- dog, from Tchecoslovacia

thank you for your answer,je ne viens pas agresser, but i want just
anderstanding,

Nicely said, Marcy, I agree 100% on the ideological level. There are honest honest and dishonest people everywhere, honest and dishonest breeders among them, so applying nationalist approach to dog breeding is absurd. :p

But it's not feasible for "people of all nations" to take action in this particular situation. I suppose what Admin meant was that if they really cared about the breed, French breeders and French KC with cooperation, if necessary, of other national KCs and FCI (?) should start doing something to clear the mess. Especially, that it was Lorry - a French breeder , who initiated the topic of mixes/ DM "miracles" ;) and most of the dogs with questioned pedigrees live in France.

BTW If I had a breeding dog with a questioned pedigree I'd do the same what the owner of Juri ZP did - immediately take him to Laboklin lab to have his DNA profiles stored there for further investigation and comaprisons. Such action shows honest intentions and is much more logical and efficient than spending days and weeks accusing the Admin of all the evil in the world.:)

Admin should learn what his job is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne...#Administrator
then come back without specific status and tell to people what you think.

It is not a fair fight when you have a admin or moderator versus a simple member. And here the admin is hidden :/

Then he gives his opinion with arguments. Some People on the forum or some people on google will not search his arguments, they will only read this topic.

This is a private site and the owners decide on the status of the Admin, not you or wikipedia. :)

I'm not surprised he's hidden, after all what Margo had to go through when she was acting admin. BTW I'll give you a secret hint...;-) Admin's French and only pretends he doesn't speak the language.:lol::lol:

Neither will some, who listen to Frank and other French breeders/owners who write all sort of things on their own websites and other forums.
Frank mentioned this in some other thread! Calm down 8), wolfdog.org is not the centre of the Universe, there are people who own and breed vlcaks and don't even know about this site.:lol:

I really prefer you act your choice on a list of dogs rather than a country, or a list of breeders.

In fact, perhaps, there are some breeders in France who may be used a Mixed CSV in the past, with papers ok, without knowing the truth about it. And now, they are breeding Pure CSV.

Everybody can make mistake, understand it, and so on turn into the right way.

Not all people in a country is running to the same way, as a a flock of sheep.

Be sure ADMIN that as PROFESIONAL BREEDER, even i am not in your target, here in France, DEFAMATION facts are punished by law.

I must inform you that all words you have written in this way are already registered by usher (because i am so used of WD demating practices)...

... and in case my notoriety is attacked by your acts, you will be punished for that (WD forum... then you admin).

I highly recommend you to take out yours defamating words, and make a DENIAL which will not engaged all French breeders.

Even that, if there is a real problem as you mentioned, be sure breeders which respect the rules would be totally opened to give help to FCI.

Exactly! 8) That's why hysterical approach to the problem, blaming Admin and others is useless. All the efforts should be directed towards solving the problem, not against people.
Should the breeders involved show any willingness to cooperate and sort out the mess, I'm sure they'd have full support of the vlcak community worldwide.

Faux!

Un admin est un rôle, un "métier", pas question de forum privé ou pas.
Un maçon dans un hôpital public ne monte pas des murs comme le maçon artisan d'une entreprise privé??

Le rôle d'un admin est de modérer, gérer, en aucun cas de prendre position et de se prendre pour un gourou, un chef de file en usant de son petit statut. L'admin, a fortiori d'un site privé, n'a aucune reconnaissance ni aucun rôle officiel qui légitime les méthodes bassement utilisées ici.

Soit votre réponse relève d'une énorme mauvaise foi, soit c'est de la sottise. Je ne sais pas ce qui est le plus rassurant entre ces deux possibilités.


PS: pour info je parle quasi couramment anglais, mais tant que l'admin nous fera l'affront d'intervenir en anglais sur le forum français, je conserverai ma langue maternelle pour intervenir ici.

Yes, that would be very nice, can the CsV club of France make this list :p ???

Yes, that is the problem, some breeders use dogs NOW just as in the past thinking that they are pure CsV... So ho can we trust :? ???

To be safe not to buy a mix whit pure papers, it is a good ide at the moment to not import a CsV from France until the CsV club of France has the situation under control...

Best regards / Mikael

Yes, but as it is more a fact that France have ALLOT of false CsV pedigree´s it is kind of useles to try to get the Admin to not talk ;)

Instead it would be nice if you put your energi to try to get the CsV club of France to act on it, to stop the mixbreeding before it is to late...

If you want to act by law, do it in France by report the MIX breeders to do fraud by selling puppy´s whit false FCI pedigree´s...

Best regards / Mikael

Intervention et remarques parfaitement stupides et dénués d’intérêt ...

Il ne faut pas, une fois de plus tout mélanger, et voir le problème du petit bout de la lorgnette ...

Il est possible que certains éleveurs soient "coupables" de ce que vous leur reprochez. Cela n'enlève en rien la culpabilité de l'Admin dans ses agissements et ses propos.

Il utilise des méthodes de voyou qui ne sont en rien excusables.

Le fond du problème (mix, pedigrees...) n'est pas ce que je remets en question. Je déteste les dictateurs de tout ordre, les petits chefs qui se sentent pousser des c...... et usent d'un pseudo pouvoir. Et l'admin répond parfaitement à tous ces critères.

Sorry, I do not speak French and will therefore not replay...

PS, no one here will understand what you try to say and Google translator do not really work that good ;), DS.

solidaire de tout ça , je vais même aller plus loin, un site privé est géré par la loi


La dénonciation, effectuée par tout moyen et dirigée contre une personne déterminée, d'un fait qui est de nature à entraîner des sanctions judiciaires, administratives ou disciplinaires et que l'on sait totalement ou partiellement inexact, lorsqu'elle est adressée soit à un officier de justice ou de police administrative ou judiciaire, soit à une autorité ayant le pouvoir d'y donner suite ou de saisir l'autorité compétente, soit aux supérieurs hiérarchiques ou à l'employeur de la personne dénoncée, est punie de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 45000 euros d'amende.
La fausseté du fait dénoncé résulte nécessairement de la décision, devenue définitive, d'acquittement, de relaxe ou de non-lieu déclarant que la réalité du fait n'est pas établie ou que celui-ci n'est pas imputable à la personne dénoncée.

En tout autre cas, le tribunal saisi des poursuites contre le dénonciateur apprécie la pertinence des accusations portées par celui-ci.







Lorsque le fait dénoncé a donné lieu à des poursuites pénales, il ne peut être statué sur les poursuites exercées contre l'auteur de la dénonciation qu'après la décision mettant définitivement fin à la procédure concernant le fait dénoncé.

Les personnes morales peuvent être déclarées responsables pénalement, dans les conditions prévues par l'article 121-2, de l'infraction définie à l'article 226-10.
Les peines encourues par les personnes morales sont :
1° L'amende, suivant les modalités prévues par l'article 131-38 ;
2° L'interdiction à titre définitif ou pour une durée de cinq ans au plus d'exercer directement ou indirectement une activité professionnelle ou sociale dans l'exercice ou à l'occasion de l'exercice de laquelle l'infraction a été commise ;
3° L'affichage ou la diffusion de la décision prononcée, dans les conditions prévues par l'article 131-35.

c'est la LOI !!!!

Jaha nu fattar jag, man skriver på sitt eget språk sedan översätter alla som vill i Google och svarar på sitt eget språk, super bra att veta :0)

Ha det bäst / Mikael


------------
He wrote that.. uuhm.. err... :heul

Really too easy, indeed :lol:

Are french members lazy less than english members ??? Maybe they're are more accodomating, aren't they ??

Punaise c'est fou! Y a un traducteur anglais/français mais les anglophones ne trouvent pas de traducteur français / anglais ... C'est complètement fou cette histoire!
Et après on dira les français méprisants ... :twisted:

Ben vous voyez, votre patois on s'en fiche complet ... Mais si je veux, je suis certaine que je vais trouver un traducteur !

Décidément trop stupide celui-là!!

Multiple? Maybe, but still a small minority.

U re welcom in french sections :
http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.aspx?lang=EN

http://translate.google.fr/#

c'est encore mieux, ça trouve directement la langue.........

ok I have a question - who planed make french breeder and owner in this all situation? who is plan? in who method You dear french put out this mixes out from breeding and anulation they pedigree?

Sorry, but I'm not Admin and do not write in English on the French forum. That's why I'm not going to respond. :|

We are in French forum now ??
 

Sorry to all French people here - but would you please be so kind posting in

....................English ...............

here ?

This is without any doubt the English ,not the French forum !

I´don´t write it for me because I speak English and French but it´s not very polite to all users who are not able to understand French language.

And this is completely impossible:

Originally posted by Diane :

"Ben vous voyez, votre patois on s'en fiche complet ... Mais si je veux, je suis certaine que je vais trouver un traducteur !

Décidément trop stupide celui-là!! "

Yes, that´s right - if you want YOU find a way to translate your text !
- And YOU have to find because you´re in the English forum here.-

Beside this obviously you did simply not understand the irony of Mikael´s posting.

Décidément trop stupide cette femme!!! :stupido

Be sure she is marvelous! And so pretty when she is angry:)

Please ask to your kind and so beloved "Admin" to write in french on the french forum. It has been asked too many times, in vain ...

But the "admin" is the dictator who has the right to say, write, ignore what he wants ...

And yes, on an english forum we speak english ... and the french forum is red by french people who speaks french and sometimes doesn't care anything at all about speaking in english ...

Just respect this next time and everything's will be ok.

"Décidément trop stupide cette femme !"
Comme quoi, vous voyez quand vous voulez, Herr ;-)

:? So, threats of suing people asides, what's the plan to contain the false pedigrees and mix-using in France?

If Admin say who she or he is, will it fix this?

Actually Admin need not say anything if French breeders and French KC dealt with the problem earlier?

Unless someone really is still believing there are not mixes or false pedigrees used in France which the KC is not addressing right now?

Shouldn't first concern of a breeder be the welfare of the breed?

"Diane" - may be you´re also not intelligent enough to see that I´m not admin ??

Also Mikael , Rona and all the other users of ENGLISH forum are not admin !

.......................Have you got it now ?...................

And if YOU - several times !- write such things like ...trop stupide...

you only show your lack of manners and correct behaviour.

Apparemment, vous n'êtes pas habitué à s'exprimer correctement et poliment - sans parler de l'arrogance d'écrire seulement en français ici.

La stupidité et de mauvaises manières sont sans doute entièrement de votre côté!

Vielleicht sollte ich ja noch Etwas auf Deutsch schreiben, damit Sie Ihre Unverschämtheit einmal begreifen ? Aber ich glaube, dazu sind Sie wohl gar nicht in der Lage...

Ps: I also don´t know admin , and he´s not my beloved one - but may be even more than you !

Yes, you're quite right!

Impose his own language on a foreign forum is quite arrogant!

I agree with it, and that's exactly what I wanted to demonstrate to all of you, overall to the as said "admin".


However "my lack of manners and correct behaviour" is purely subjective, and it's your own point of view which I don't care anymore, Herr ;)

TschüB ;-)

I don't even know who the Admin is :p I used irony, because I found the 'Admin-French war' really strange 8) I wondered what the reaction of SOME French breeders would be it they found out he might also be... French. :twisted:

The struggle with Admin seems a substitute conflict to cover the real problems that occur in SOME kennels according to the principle that attack is the best kind of defence.

Should half of the energy spent on writing here and attacking the Admin be used for testing dogs' DNA, the problem would have been solved long ago.

YES Rona YOU say a TRUE, Admin speak about mixes from all countrys, and unfortunaly big procent dogs who are mixes live in FR, but Admin speak and about italian, finish, czech, and others countrys mixes too.

I very hope people end speak about " You love me You not love me" but begin work with this problem.

Agree, agree and agree :santagrin

Very best regards / Mikael

And...

PS, I think the Admin is from Finland :p I´m 30% sure :lol:, DS.

I think Lupis is the Admin:ehmmm I'm 31% sure because they're both anonymous... Lupis, are you the Admin? :evil_lol

Originally posted by Rona:
"Should half of the energy spent on writing here and attacking the Admin be used for testing dogs' DNA, the problem would have been solved long ago."

Yes absolutely- that´s my opinion too !

Ps. Hey Mikael, may be Rona is right - and admin is French himself ??

Can be very possible - first I think because of his lack of manners and correct behaviour....;):evillaugh

But I don´t really think this is typical for ALL French people !

Best regards , Uli alias Silvester

Noo, nooo Admin are from Commonwealth of Independent States :) very typical work and charakter 8);-):lol:

Do you really want Diane to make DNA tests of her dog? Are you not afraid to reveal that puppy has 'Coton of Tuléar' blood??

:)

Yes, undoubtedly of the serious concern in France, a warning statement is of setting. I join it completely…
Then, not to forget the dogs either coming from Hungary (Crying Wolf), there is also a problem to solve… there too, a warning statement.
is unhappy, a so young race where we start to have very serious concern… :roll:

Thanks Martial! :)

Originally posted by Jet:
"Do you really want Diane to make DNA tests of her dog? Are you not afraid to reveal that puppy has 'Coton of Tuléar' blood??"

Sorry - who spoke about the dog of Diane?? Not me and also not Rona.

But of course, you are right - after all what I did see here in the last days about strange crossings some "breeders" obviously did with Csw I would not wonder if someone tried to mix with Caucasian Owczarka...or better with Bengal tiger...???:evil_lol:ylsuper

Ok yes we still can discuss with humour...:)

Yes, but in this case English is considered as international language for people from Poland, Germany, Czech, Slovakia, Lithuania, Holland, Russia and many others. Only very few members in English forum are really English. So please, if you are trying to communicate in an international section of the forum - try to do it in English.

In fact all these attacks on Admin in a VERY unpolite way makes French breeders even more... hm... like people you would not want to have anything in common... Speaking French on international forum also shows disrespect for all the other members.

It is why I wrote
"Till the case will be solved please DO NOT BUY ANY PUPPIES FROM FRANCE from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the AWD producers. If you are importing a puppy from France please ask on the forum if the puppy is purebreed because there are MANY known mongrels which are still not marked as "MIXES" in the database but will be listed soon or later (with the remark "DOG NOT FOR BREEDING)."

I suggested (and I suggest) puppy buyers to ask about it (about a will to buy a puppy from France) on a official forum because of the French forum I saw that even the breeders who have dogs which are for 100% AWD-mixed swear that their dogs are purebreed.
So one more time: the pedigree do not guaranty that the puppy comes from the parents which are listed there. And the words of the breeder are useless too - the slogans about DNA test and being sure that the parents are real CsW are nothing worth too.
It is everything about running a good business. They will lie till the end.

Good breeders have no reason to be afraid - by many dogs there are no doubts about their origin.

NO. There is no pedigree cheating in Slovakia, Germany, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Sweden or Poland. It is because of the regulations which are solving such cases. In all those mentioned countries the problem of "possible Saarloos mixes" would be solved already 2 years ago. And none of the dogs would be used for breeding.

2-3 years ago it was written on the forum that some French dogs are AWD mixes. NOBODY checked the DNA, NOBODY cared for the problem. The ONLY answer which other breeders received from France was: "You are envy because we have the best CsWs in the world".

No the problem appeared again because the problems spread among the French kennels and 100% mongrels started to be born in French kennels. It is the best visible truth that the words posted 2-3 yeats ago were RIGHT.
What answer I get on the French forum? That I'm Nazi trying to destroy French breeders. Envy Nazi attacking the best breeders in the world.

I get information about witness who is prepared to confirm by your kennel club that de la Louve blanche breeder mixed her dogs with AWD. What help did I get on the French forum? NONE. Again only emails and post about Nazi, envy and about "attacking the best (French) breeders" of the world.

I'm far away from attacking all French breeders. I have no reason to attack French people - nationalism is a unknown word for me. People who are calling other users "nazis" are for me just mindless dumbs who really do not know what they are writing about.

But the facts are:

1- It is SURE some of the French dogs are AWD and Saarloos mixes
2- We know dogs which are mongrels for sure
3- But nobody knows which ELSE dogs are mixes/mongrels
4- Dogs which have FCI pedigrees are replaced in France by unknown mixes and breed with French FCI pedigrees
5- Mixes are imported from Finland and possible also from Hungary
6- Not even the breeders and owners know if their dogs are purebreed or not

So how can you say the pedigrees are something worth when NOBODY know which dogs have real pedigrees, which are purebreed CsW?

I suggest that the breeders who use direct imports from the "sure" countries can be also sure that they have real Wolfdogs. The same apply to kennel which do not use dogs from "de Louba tar" (and co.), de la Louve blanche, Crying Wolf and de l'Ange Gardien de Faujus kennels. The rest?
They can only hope that their dogs are CsWs... Hope for the DNA test...

I can imagine that kennels which

WHAT?

The owner of American Wolfdog told that CPouchka is daughter of his AWD Unkas. The same with Ckinay. There is a person (witness) who will sign under the paper which can bi given to your kennel club. It is not enough?

There are many photos of the German Shepherd, and Husky alike dogs which are born in France. Such "mutation" by Wolfdogs would be not possible even in the de la Louve Blanche kennel would be situated next to Chernobyl power plant! Sorry for the sarcastic words but what do you want more? Should I go to France - steal Couchka and both her "parents" and make the DNA tests? You all know it is not possible. And second - since the French kennel club is the FCI member country it must care for the credibility of its pedigrees. What is missing now. It is their DUTY.

I know the breed club has a lot work to do. And i know there is a World Dog Show in Paris soon (where many mongrels and mixes will enter the show ring) and because of it the French officials have no time to care for it at the moment. I know for many breeders and owners it was hard to believe that an FCI breeder can do something like this. But it was done. Not one time and not only in one kennel (there are at last 3 sources of French mongrels).
One thing is sure: YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.

The pedigrees are worth nothing at the moment and ONLY YOU AND YOUR KENNEL CLUB can solve this problem.

I do not blame such breeders even a bit. Everybody can make mistakes - especially unconscious. If the AWD-mixes story will be not stopped nobody can be sure in the near future if he is breeding with purebreed dogs.

I have nothing against people who used mixes without knowing it but will take such dogs out of breeding.

The same is with fraud.
If you are going to the shop, if you buy a golden ring and you pay for golden ring. You must get a ring made of gold.
If you go to a breeder and you want to buy a PUREBREED dog and when you pay for a purebreed dog you must get a purebreed dog. If you get a mongrel with pedigree it is a FRAUD!

So start to use a law for cleaning your country (your kennel club) out of the cheaters.

End with the speaking about me. Now I have very easy correct question to the French people posting in this topic.

There is no doubt that some French pedigrees are cheated. That some dogs are mixes. so my question to each of you is:

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?
WHICH OFFICIALS DID YOU CONTACTED?
DID YOU INFORM YOUR KENNEL CLUB ABOUT THE CHEATERS?
DID YOU INFORM YOU BREED CLUB ABOUT THE FAKE PEDIGREES AND ASKED FOR DOING SOMETHING?
DID YOU ASKED FOR OFFICIAL DNA TESTS BY THE SUSPICIOUS DOGS?
DID YOU INFORMED THE FRENCH OFFICIALS ABOUT BREAKING THE LAW ABOUT PROTECTED ANIMALS?
DID YOU INFORMED THE FRENCH OFFICIALS ABOUT BREAKING THE LAW ABOUT KEEPING DANGEROUS ANIMALS?

Please write me what have you done beside writing about the bad bad admin...

unkas est toujours vivant ?? on peut faire des tests sur lui non ??
pour ce qui est de ckinay, qui est le père de jalisca va falloir sérieusement arrêter d'affabuler .......





unkas is still alive? one can not test him?

in terms of ckinay, who is the father of Jalisca will have to seriously stop storyteller .......



http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9961

http://www.zimagez.com/miniature/1237675202-5475526.jpg

d'ou ce chien est issu d'un AWD ?????


or of the dog comes from a AWD ?????

et sa fille jalisca


and daughter Jalisca

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/12871

http://www.zimagez.com/miniature/1289689772-3346084.jpg

ou cette chienne ressemble à un AWD ???

or that bitch looks like a AWD??

arrêtez de dire n'importe quoi, si tel est le cas, apportez les preuves maintenant, mais arrêtez de lancer de tels débats qui au final n'aboutiront à rien, ADMIN, tu es fatigant, vraiment fatigant


stop saying anything, if that is the case, make the evidence now, but stop throwing such debates that ultimately will come to nothing, ADMIN, you're tiring, really tiring

donc soit vous apportez les preuves tout de suite, soit vous attendez avant de dénigrer qui que ce soit , s'en devient lassant de votre part....

So you either bring proof immediately, or you wait to denigrate anyone, it becomes tiring on your part

DES PREUVES, NOUS VOULONS DES PREUVES pas de SUPPOSITIONS


EVIDENCE, WE WANT PROOF no ASSUMPTIONS

Well, I don't have anything against French breeders or any reason to support Admin (I'm not even a breeder..) but I think one simply needs to read carefully.. all the answers are here, as far as I can tell?


:wolfie

I wait from antswers in Admins question, but i think.. we very long for this wait. Ariminium maybe you make this?

si vous regardez un peu ckinay, et ses parents, vous verez qu'il y a beaucoup de ressemblance, si vous arretiez un peu de dire n'importe quoi.....
merlin crying wolf et ossa criyning wolf
la forme des yeux, l'implantation, la couleur, la taille,le masque, l'implantation des oreilles
s'il y avait eu un mariage avec unkas, ne croyez vous pas que le chien aurait eu des signes de AWD ????
mais regardez plus loin , vous êtes bornés, vous prennez les paroles de ADMIN comme paroles d'évangile

if you look a little ckinay, and his parents, you will see there is a lot of resemblance, if you stop just to say anything .....
merlin crying wolf and wolf criyning ossa
eye shape, placement, color, size, mask, ear implantation
if there had been a marriage unkas, do not you think the dog would have been signs of AWD??
but look further, you're limited, you take the words as gospel ADMIN

if when I see in parents and child i see big diferent, who not see you.
why you think people begin speak about falsh pedigree this dog, when HE is diferent like his genetic line.

and maybe you antswer in admins questions?

p.s. when write please delet french worts, I think this can you make without problem.

"j'y vois de grandes differences......."

donc vous restez campez sur vos suppositions, je reste campé sur les miennes ..........
pour ma part les tests sont bons pour jalisca, le reste quoique l'on en dise est vraiment sans importance ......

j'attends juste les "prétendues" preuves....... on avisera ensuite......

what? say in normal language, can in lithuanian if want

But aren't you the one, whocan give real proof your dogs are not mixes? Just make a dnr test, it is not that expensive :roll:

Kaip su plikiu pešiotis... :roll:

about this and speak Admin, but they ignore questions only cry

būtent, koležanke iš trečiosios šalies :lol:

Sorry, either you're joking or you're blind...
This dog looks more like a so called American Wolfdog (this is by far no breed!) rather than any CSW.

Michael

It is a pitty in other countries exist wolfdog clubs only like clubs of friends of wolfdogs. Not really BREEDING clubs. Nobody lead breeding. Not breeding comitees. In breeding with FCI pedigree is everything with 4 legs. Not conditions for breeding dogs. If every breeding wolfdog will must have bonitation, it will be easy. Every not typicle wolfdog (in eyes of bonitation comitee)will have P14 and he will not have pups with FCI pedigree. But it is work for clubs and cooperating with dog organisations in every country.
And if owner will not agree with bonitation comitee, he must show DNA test......

Hanka, I understand your consern, but do you really have BREEDING clubs in your country that take care of breeding of Dogo Argentino? Croatian Sheepdog? Shikoku? French hounds? Really? :shock: Hope you at least have friends clubs of these breeds. And sorry, but this breeding comitee work somehow does not show such great results in Czech Respublic than in some other countries where only breed "friends" clubs exist (even un-official) :roll:

We all know that bonitation is not allways the only true answer - or do you still believe in it blindly?

P.S. Does bonitation really make more sense than DNR test?

I'm sorry Hanka but it is not working... First - atypical Wolfdogs DO NOT get P14... In many cases they get P1 (excellent note) even if the look and move horrible ;) And Mutaras are the best example. Audrey Lupo Mutara - she has 0% of blood of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog; she looks like a malamute-German Shepherd cross but she passed the Czech bonitation :) The same was with Ave Lupo - she pased the bonitation in Jetrichovice. Not different was with other "Saarlooses" registered in Italy. Mutara Fenrir was bonitated by a Czech club judge and get NOT P14 but P3 (very good - bonitation code with almost no faults). Most of the Mutaras were already bonitated by the Czech club judges and they get PERFECT codes - best example:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/122.html

Sorry but with bonitation you can not make ANYTHING against the mixes. Only DNA tests and liquidation of their pedigrees will solve the problem...

Hanka who bonitation type mas make? czech slovak or italian? Margo very good say not bonitation say mix or not but only DNA test. Better say when you are in CZ club commision, who czech club planed make with this problem?

:| Hmmm... And this judge are good ???

I mean, would this dogs pass a good Bonitation judge ;-) ???

Best regards / Mikael

Mikael I understand maybe I am to young to stupid to judge now, but excelent thake for suspicious dogs and "old wolf" in judgement, like Oskar, Sonja, A.Simackova, Jedlicka, Soukupova they JUDGE who judge very long time and judge in bonitation ( a few about 20 years)....

and you quest make bonitation sense in detection suspicious dogs or not :lol:

Maybe a DNA test are to be made at all Bonitations ;-)

Best regards / Mikael

I not see problem in this. this not expensive this test - very good when this make all breeder with they litter before sale puppy and see 5-10 years and we have great DNA databasa

One Bonitation judge of 10 :)... 9 to go :p !!!

What do you think Hanka :rock_3 is it possible to get the clubs to start to talk about this ???

Best regards / Mikael

Everybody here knows, Jedlicka is Mutara maker and Mutara owner= mutaras heva good results. And= it is NOT czech club judge, because club does not cooperate wit him many years.
Yes, it is easy to tell "it is not possible", to write here 1000 things why it is not possible. So good, we will write here hundreds pages about terrible french mixes. It is better. Only write and do nothing.
My God......
So Ok, we will look at next and next generations of mixes and we will write how it is terrible....

my God.. you make this same too.

who planed make your club ( club country in who born this breed, when CZ club are this who work with breed and protect the breed who we can read almost in all post in CZ forum) in this case?

p.s. Why I quest- club from origin mas begin work with this- and others clubs/people want to help too, but origin club mas make a start and make working plan.