CW in the UK
 

Hi folks,

My wife and I are planning our vacation this year in the UK. Since we are always accompanied by our 'Czechies', we were wondering about the latest news regarding the status of our breed.

Can anyone of you guys help us with some relevant information?

Looking foreward to receiving a response from native Brits.

Greetings,

Gershom (Netherlands)

uk CWD
 

no need to worrie about the law her regarding CWD as they are now leagal to own over here:). im not sure on the quarentine though so u should probably ask your vet about that.
here is a link to the defra site that explains the law over here. hope it helps
The link below takes you to a webpage which has recently been amended to reflect how CWD etc are to be treated under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/protection/dwaa/hybrid.htm

Hi,

Thanks for the info. I shall, therefore, contact our vet.

Greetings,

Gershom

No requirement for quarantine under the PETS scheme.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/quar...res/owners.htm

Hi,

Thanks for the information.

Greetings,

Gershom

hi Gershom, i sent you email regarding what to do, if there is anything else you are unsure of mail me or use phone number i give you in case of any problems while in uk, regards paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks ever so much for your kind offer. I shall cetrainly get in contact with you if need be.

Greetings and thanks again,

Gershom

Wow, that's great news! Finally!

it is great news it only took us just over 6 years to get the law changed but still not bad for just a few people working very hard and getting a law amended, we have just had our third litter of CWD mum and pups are fine, regards pacino

Yes it is good work by you all ho did work whit this :klatsch
But can you tell me way the puppys are not to be pure by FCI or Wolfdog.org ???
That part I do not understand :? if the puppys now is pure by DEFRA way not by FCI ???

Best Regards / Mikael

work carried out for the law change was done by my wife and i, mrs Andre Tanner, and about 6 other people, and big thanks to Koos and Letty who give us lots of nessesary information on the breed to make up the paperwork we needed.
the puppies in uk once all paperwork is supplied to kennel club will have uk pedigrees, and therefor we could show in Europe, defra are only the ministry who inforce the law for the government, so now they have amended the law it is ok with them, they are nothing to do with registering the dogs, this is for the kennel club, who will now register our dogs as the law has changed, as for the FCI,, here in uk well nobody is sure about anything, they say we are part of Europe but still our friends can not visit with there dogs unless they have passports??? the uk is still living in the past and has island mentality, sad but true,, as you may have noticed the uk breeders are no longer on wolfdog.org , so at present there is not much point in putting any info as to what we are breeding, it all stems form cross breeedings by people, my point is when anyone with a labrador crosses it with a poodle you dont get the lab clubs or poodle clubs up in arms about it, there are so many cross bred dogs now in uk and rest of the world, but people on wolfdog .org come down hard on people in uk who cross bred there cwd, the difference in uk is they can not register such cross breds, we know lots have been registered in southern Europe as we can see from photos on wolfdog.org or if we attend shows. I my self will never cross a cwd with another breed of dog, I will however use a pure wolf , again i am condemed on wolfdog.org?? so i take it only people like Karl Hartle and MR Saarloos are the only people who should do such things? well sorry but its a free world for all to do as they please, so why do i breed such wolfdogs, i breed them as i want to see how much i can keep them looking like a wolf with selective breeding with many friends in uk and Europe, breeding without massive inbreeding all our animals are health checked not just breeding stock, but this is my private thing and has nothing to do with my pure cwd breeding, i have all my cwd bitchs on pet passports and i do travel to Europe to breed my cwd, i offered to buy a cwd recently of the rehoming list on wolfdog.org it would have been nice to get new line to uk to help us, my friends in Europe who translated for me said sorry paul the guy wont sell to the u.k., this is result of the people on wolfdog.org who have said we are only cross breeders and even for just money, this is my 3rd litter in 7 years, yet other breeders have breed more than me in 1 yr but they seem to be o.k.? and they do keep useing the same stud dogs??? there is artical soon in uk dog mag, it will state that at present i will not forward papers to kennel club as i want some assurences that our club will controll breedings and dogs eligable to be registered, my fear is the show world people, i have nothing against people who show there dogs, but i do not agree with because a dog is a champion it should be used on every bitch around or the bitch be used to breed of every season,, you can see examples of every breed on the planet where there are champion dogs that people will say how did that ever become a champion,, this is when the trouble can begin as people who are not educated on breeding dogs will just want to use the dog because it has champion status,, there is an ever incresing difference between the cwd bred in northern Europe to those bred elsewhere and it can be seen on the photos on wolfdog.org, as we can also see more posts over the years on different new health problems, so therefor it is best to try and get new owners even pet owners to health check there dogs, this will of coarse be hard to do, but not impossable, as for me breeding and selling for money, if i have sold a cwd in uk, the new owners may be on the site, if they have contact mail or phone ask them how easy it was to get a cwd from me,,, every person has to visit me, they have to go hands on with my dogs, they will recieve a fact sheet, they are asked lots of questions and then i or a friend will visit to see they have been telling me the truth as to where they live and the facilities they have for the dog, out of every 10 people who visit and want a cwd on average only 2 in my personal opinion will be suitable owners,so i do care where my pups go and i do take more care than most breeders, if one of these people break there contract they signed not to cross breed, and they do,then it does not make me irresponsable as many have made out on this site,,, you can only take people as you find them and take there word, one last thing for all the people who have give my wife and i and others so much abuse just remember if you ever come to visit the uk, my wife and I, Andre,Koos and Letty and others for many years fought to get the law changed so you can all walk your CWD here without any problems and in future even attend dog shows.... best regards Mr P Winder breeeder of PURE CWD.

inbreeding, health problems,registered cross bred dogs,SO WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING ABOUT IT??? Our question for Europe from U.K.??????/

I guess this is the reason why your dogs are not present at WD.org :

I am pretty sure that this is FCI-regulations, at least I know these regulations also apply in my country and it does`nt matter if you crossbreed with another breed of dog, a wolf, a jackal or whatever...
it is simply not allowed by FCI approved kennels to crossbreed, I think WD.org try to follow FCI-regulations U.K. or not !

Greetings Rolf

the uk kennel club have agreement with FCI regarding breeds but they do not come under FCI ruleing nor does any uk breeder, if you register any pup or litter in uk and it is found to be fraudulent you will be banned from kennel club for life, breeding and showing of any dogs, you also loose your kennel name or affix, as we will never be under FCI regulations in uk, is why we keep our own records of all pure bred cwd. and even at that the uk kennel club will welcome any breed recognised by the FCI to compete in shows in uk, as long as they are not on the dangerous dogs listing in which case they are illegal in the u.k. So while wolfdog.org may condem us as we are not under FCI it again is not our fault, but on the other hand we will welcome any European cwd to u.k. and we will respect there FCI pedigree, it is a pity it dosnt work both ways ,, such is life,,,,, not to worry i will still use my friends European dogs to breed from.

P.S. heres a funny thing but tell the moderaters, as people may ask questions, in 2003 my first czech bitch Lynx legend von rijnecker hof was registered with the uk kennel club,,,, her FCI pedigree was asked for and accepted by the uk kennel club,,, so dont believe all you here on wolfdog.org why the breeders have been removed,,,,, they are telling PORKIES AGAIN......her uk kennel club registration even has her FCI reg number on it???????????

1. this FCI-regulations have nothing to do with if you try to register the dogs or not, it is only about crossbreeding ;-)

2. I am sure you are not condemed for not being under FCI-regulations, as it is not necessary to be under FCI regulations to follow the regulations of FCI, commen sense, good moral and ethics :rock_3

3. no one at WD.org told me this, this is just my own thoughts :)

I really don`t see what Lynx legend von rijnecker hof or her registration have to do with all of this ? ...unless you did crossbreed her :shock:
....maybe I am wrong ???

Greetings Rolf

hey Rolf theres me thinking you are different untll you again come up with the smart remark unless you did cross breed her,,, and the little funny face, tell u what hope i see u in europe this year ill give you a funny look on your face you are just like all the others with there smart arse remarks and stupid fu..ing little smilies,

Paul, sorry to say, you maybe have cwd which you don´t crossbreed. But you did last year a litter with your Timber wolf and cwd! So what do you want? You compare yourself with Hartle and Saarloos but why did you crossbreed an american wolf with an europaen breed cwd? This is what you be blamed for! I have no problem if you have Timber wolf, american wolfdog or whatever. But please northamerican wolves and wolfdogs are on part and have nothing to do with europaen part! These are totally different "breeds"! If you would have taken a carpartian wolf, I think people would maybe understand you. But so?

And what the hell do you think people think of you after pissing french/netherlands kennel of Cory Kayzer? So if you do crossbreeding, do it, but than you have nothing to expect here in the world of csw on wolfdog.org!

Christian

I love csw, and I love too american wolfdogs. But I never ever would crossbreed europaen wolfdogs with american wolves or wolfdogs although I have a canadian wolfdog!

Hey Paul,
Sorry, but I really do not see my question as a smart remark ?
For me this smiley :shock: is a surpriced face, as I really do not know if you have used her for crossbreeding or not, I really don`t read all topics about you as many of them are not constructive, but only people pointing fingers at eachother, but I really did not see what Lynx had to do with the rest of your answer on my post, so since you mention her, ofcourse I must think she have something to do with crossbreeding ...I don`t know, that`s why I ask ;-)

I really don`t see my self as all others, I am an induvidual and I write, think and react as an induvidual, no matter how others write, think or react. It was not my intention to piss you off, but to inform you of what I think could be the reason, why your dogs are not displayed here, as you say your self ....it is just a f..ing smiley :rock_3

Greetings Rolf

I do think all dogs need passport to pass into a nother country in Europe :? EU or not ??? it has to do whit deseases like rabies for example :|

As I anderstand all pure CsV in UK will soon have all papers and be pure CsV in all FCI countrys and by Wolfdog.org to ???

I do try to make a good start for CsV in Sweden whit information about the breed and demands like HD x-ray, but already there is problem and others only wont it to be recomendations not demands :(

Who has reregestrated CsV cross breeds as you know :shock: in Sweden we will atleast not get that problem as it is already DNA test demands for breeding CsV and Saarloos :thumbs to Skk.

I´m not against cross breeding at all !!! CsV is a cross breed ;-) but I think if you mix CsV, Saarloos or Wolf you better be a expert in genetic and cross breeding as it is far from simple, aspesialy to get the puppys into a good and responsible home. It is not many that has the home, time and experience to own a 50% hybrid :(

I think it is just enough wolfblood in CsV as it is, but that is only my point of view, you have yours ;-)

So good luck whit your new breed, best regards / Mikael

But way not ??? if you cross breed it is better if they have nothing to do whit each other :rock_3 and as many do think me included, Lennart Saarloos did cross in his neighbours Timber Wolf to get the big size :| and therefore the brown colors in that breed still today ;-)

Best regards / Mikael

Mikael, Crossbreed means crossing a wolf with a dog! Saarloos people say there is no Timber wolf in Saarloos. The first wolf was a europaen russian wolf which Saarloos took.

It seems that you don´t know much about europaen wolves, do you?! One of the biggest europaen wolf was a carpartian male with 90 cm in shoulder! And the colour? Brown colour, it is the same you find it too by carpartian wolves.

So if I understand you right you would even mix a siberian tiger with an indian tiger, or an indian elephant with an african elephant? Nort american wolves are different. For example they have at least 5 different colours, like black, white, grey, red, brown. Do you find these colours in europaen wolf? No, of course not! Different types but most is grey, with yellow, brown, a bit red, but always look like grey! In grey amercan wolves there are always different colours. They are different from behaviour. Sure for a person like you a wolf is a wolf. Please dream on.

Christian

Crossing a csw with a wolf is not 50 % wolfblood but normally about 65 %. Sure it is mathematics and the case is the F 1 is the main problem. And Paul did sell one of his pups to germany. And it would be not nice if this guy will bring this F 1 in csw population.

For me problem is not European or American wolf, but about regulations !
If you are a recognized breeder(does`nt matter what breed), you are not allowed to use your pedigree dogs to crossbreeding/mixbreeding, as it will discredit the big work there have been done to create the breed and undermine the the work of the kennel clubs all over, to make sure the recognized breeders is working for the better of the specific breed.
...At least this is how it works in Denmark :)

For me crossbreeding and mixbreeding is the same, only names are different ;-)

Hybrids is really not a valid word to use, when speaking of mix/cross between wolves and domesticated dogs.
From a biological point of weiw, a hybrid is the name of the ofspring from two different species, wolves and domesticated dogs are the same species(eurasian wolf = canis lupus lupus / domesticated dog = canis lupus familiaris) :rock_3

I like all dogs, wolfdogs more than other dogs and wolves most of all 8)

Greetings Rolf

As Rolf already did say wolf and dog are from the same family :rock_3 not as you say And I do not se way the offsprings from the F1 puppy Paul did sell to Germany would end up as a CsV more then the offsprings of a Saarloos, husky, wolf or a GSD in any country from any breeder :stupid

But as you did say your self "DREAM ON" :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

I think you two guy misunderstood eachother....

Christian was writing about european and american wolves are differet breeds ...not wolves and dogs;-)

Mikael animals from same family can be different breeds, don`t mix this up ;-)

Wolves belong to the family "Canidae" which also includes :
Canis
Vulpes
Dusicyon
Lycaon
...and more.

The genus type of wolves is "canis" which also includes :
Lupus
Rufus
Latrans
Aureus
Simensis
...and more.

The species of wolves is "canis lupus" which includes :
Lupus(grey wolf) - ancestor of all wolves.

Canis lupus aka grey wolf have some subspecies which includes :
canis lupus lupus(eurasian wolf)
canis lupus lycaon(east american timber wolf)
canis lupus arctos(artic wolf)
canis lupus pallipes(indian wolf)
canis lupus signatus(iberian wolf)
canis lupus occidentalis(canadian wolf)
canis lupus dingo(dingo)
canis lupus familiaris(domesticated dog)
...and more.

Greetings Rolf

Yes maybe :ehmmm but as I understand there are all Canis Lupus and not Totaly differant breeds at least :| and therefore there is no Hybrid´s in dogs neather, scientificly spoken that is...

But I my self would not cross them at all, but I do not se the reasan way Christian think it is totaly wrong, to cross American wolf to CsV but OK to cross European wolf to GSD ???

To me it is OK if it is done by an expert on cross breeding !!! how ever that is very rear :| but I´m very glad that people before us have cross breed otherwise there would not be any CsV or Saarloos today, or am I wrong :rock_3

I like CsV but also (unpure) dog breeds like Husky mixes, Alaskan Husky, Tamaskan dog, Tamaskan Wolfdog, American Wolfdog and Swedish Wolfdog, but I will newer cross my CsV whit any of them or a wolf !!!

And I like wolves to much to bring then out of the woods :roll:

Best regards / Mikael

Sorry for the off topic ;)
Most reliable SWH sources will tell you that Leendert Saarloos DID not cross a Timber into the breed, the brown colour could simply come from the GSD ;)
A colour which is offcourse frowned apon by GSD-breeders but one that in rare occasions does show its face ;)
http://www.duitseherders.com/plaatjes14/vacht_lever.jpg

GSD and Rottweiler is also canis lupus, but very different ;-)
True hybrids are only ofspring from two different species...

I can not speak for Christian, but to me the difference was :
When European wolf and GSD were crossed it was done by experienced people and with a purpose, and with a very strict selection.
Crossing american wolf and CSW will have no purpose, or what is the whole idea about it ?
When you are a recognized breeder of CSW, you should not use your CSW`s for crossbreeding, if you as a recognized breeder want to breed crosses(does`nt matter what breeds) you should not use dogs from your own kennel, to me that is the main difference.

Both SWH and CSW was crossbreeds between wolf and GSD for a purpose, to create a new breed(CSW was only an experiment in the beginning, but later on it was for creating a new breed), do you think the world need more breeds of wolfdogs ? or do you know another good purpose why to crossbreed CSW and wolf ?

Christian also have an Canadian wolfdog(a VERY beautyful one), but I am pretty sure, that he will never cross it with anything else, than other American/Canadian wolfdogs, just like i am pretty sure that he will never cross his CSW`s whit anything else than CSW`s.

Greetings Rolf

I did not say it is a fact, a fact is however that nobody today know if or if not he did mix in that very dog and I as many other think he did, way would he not ??? :rock_3 as Lennart Saarloos was very bad at keeping records I ges we will newer know, if not DNA will tell us in the future :rock_3 a fact is however that there is not to many pure Saarloos in the world today as they are crosst out whit CsV :roll: but that is nothing that we do talk about is it... :| and it is not only in the UK...

/ Mikael

No I think that other them to mix in new gene´s to the breeds that we already have today it is not realy necessary to mix whit wolf, however there is many reasans to mix out the wolves mixes whit dogs...

But I agree, FCI say you are not as a FCI kennel to mix breed your pure dogs !!!

And as I already did say, I think mixing whit wolves are to be done by experts on mixbreeding if it is to be done at all...

Best regards / Mikael

First of all (if at all), such mixbreeding would have to be done with the agreement and under close supervison of the Slovakian Kennel Club - or whatever you call the body that has legal rights to decide about the development of the breed!!! Any other attempts of cross-breeding wolves into the breed is morally wrong! Especially if the attempts are conducted without close cooperation with breeding advisors and top breed specialists, e.g. people who bonitated and judged lots of dogs, bred many litters, etc. from several coutries - especially the countries of the breed origin- also with scientists in dogs' genetics, experienced vets and dog trainers. If CSV is to remain a working, not just a show breed, as K. Hartl meant it to be, dogs' training potential/abilites would be one of the major selection criterium.

If a carpathian wolf blood (because CSV stems from a hybrid of GSD and a CARPATHIAN WOLF!) is to be added to the breed genetic pool:
1. a proper, at least 20-30 year project should be designed, discussed and agreed upon by above mentioned experts and legal authorities including FCI!
2. clear objectives of the project should be stated and made public and transparent
3. institution or a group of people (?) legally responsible for the project implementation would have to be appointed
4. an international "control board" should be appointed.
3. massive funds should be raised/sposnsors found (?) for this purpose including:

- foundation of a wofldog park, where all hybrids that for various reasons would not used for further breeding would find shelter and could lead decent lives,
- opening of a training station where the "hybrids" would be intensly trained and tested. Only these creatures that pass tough exams and fulfil other tough appearance, character and health criteria could be used for further breeding
- well equiped vet clinic should be opened /appointed where the dogs should be carefully examined, also towards genetic diseases.

Still one should be aware that there will be high costs of such an "exepriment": e.g. a fresh wolf blood insertion into CSV breed may lead to further bans of the breed in the countries like UK, Sweden etc.,

I belive that any other ways of mixbreeding CSV with wolves is amateur, secretive, unprofessional and thus wrong -whether conducted in the UK, France, Italy or the Czech Republic (the Mutaragate) or wherever.

Hello

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

FCI say NO, but Paul lives in UK and aperantly it is OK by DEFRA or UK law to mix wolves X dog or Wolves X wolfdog... :|

But it has nothing to do whit CsV as a breed as non of this offsprings will ever be CsV, like whit the mutara...

But as I say again, in my opinion NO new mixing whit wolves is necessary to create a new breed, but if I think like you, it is to be done by experts in cross breeding only !!!

Best regards / Mikael

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

OK also for here the big "??????" already asked the same "??????" on the Dutchforum :rock_3;
Is it possible this one F1 wolfdog that is in Germany can ever come in the CSW breed and have offspring with a pedigree that says it is a CSW :evil::evil::evil: ???
If yes, is this legal :evil::evil::evil: ???
If yes, is this also possible in other European country's :evil::evil::evil: ???
If yes, is this also possible for other breeds :evil::evil::evil: ???


Groette Martine.

Ok, I understand now.

But I remember somebody mentioning here (though I don't remember who exactly it was) that a further wolfblood should be added to the CSV breed to avoid inbreeding and heredic diseases. I don't know if the person (people?) were correct or not, but I wanted to point out how dificult and complicated the task and process would be if even average scientific, ethical, legal and moral (humane) standards are to be met.

Yes to all ??? because of phenotype registration in FCI, which is sometimes good but mostly bad.
If you register the F1 as a CSW his offspring will get normal pedigrees after 4 generations.
And if you look up the discussion about Sangria Passo de Lupo you will find out this is not so far away.

Ina

But this is possible for just every simple person to do :shock::shock::shock: ??
You do not have to come with a lot off good reason to do so :shock::shock::shock: ??
And ask to the FCI to justify this as correct :shock::shock::shock: ??
And there is also not a commisi to aprove this as correct :shock::shock::shock: ??
And Sangria is in the future, a Granddad of a lot off CSW :shock::shock::shock: ??

I have heard off using dogs instead of the one who is written on the pedigree :evil:.
But never knew this was possible :evil:.
It is really absurd :x, but thanks for your answer ;-).

Groette Martine.

Maybe I can reply about it then our club is even more open and dirty than the italianone
Yes, just a simple person can make a "pure breed certified" you only need a look like CzW dog and show it to 3 all rounder judge who sometime snever seen the breed before, if they said "ok" so the dog receive the pure breed certified, and can mate as make registered puppies with special pedigree, here, in red collor then the official is blue one.
No, only show the mongrel CzW-look-a-like for 3 all rounder ignorant judges and you will have your pure breed certified.

Difficult.. FCI is just politic as dogshows, only a good way to have your money with the registration and monopolium
Sure!! the 3 all rounder noob judge :jumpie
After 3 generation of registered dogs all Sangria and other mix lines will be so consider as the old pure lines for FCI, some uninformed people probably will use without know about all this, some will use for continue such "super" line
That's why by the way I agree with GSD breeders and his non-FCI club conected only with the German GSD club.

Well this is not what I was talking about !
I am speaking of all breeds, not only CSW.
...I will repeat my self again : if you are a recognized breeder(of any breed), you should not use your pedigree dogs to create mixes/crosses, as a recognized breeder, you should work for the better of the breed which you are a registered breeder for ;-)
Example : you are recognized breeder of CSW, then you should only breed your CSW`s with other CSW`s, but if you have another dog(which is not part of your recognized kennel, does`nt matter what breed or mix/cross) then it would, for me, be okey to mix/cross it with what ever you like, as this will not effect your moral obligations to the breed which you as a recognized breeder should work for the better of your breed.
This is regulations of Danish kennel club and I fully agree with this :)
In other words if you keep your recognized kennel dogs apart from your "hobby" dogs, then it is no problem. :rock_3

In Denmark it only possible to get pedigree on puppies, where both parrents have FCI recognized pedigree.

Greetings Rolf

:lol::lol::lol:, Maybe they are just all dirty :rock_3 ???
Do you also know where I can read more, about this rule of the FCI ;-) ???

Groette Martine.

But is it realy this simple ???

It was hard for Lennart Saarloos and Karel Hartl, way would it be simple now ??? minimum 5 generations from wolf FCI say ! Standard like and supervise breeding by FCI, like the way Rona talk about...

In Sweden you will NOT get your CsV or Saarloos peedigee after a normal mating whitout a DNA test that say that the parents is the parents, I do not se how no one here can register a F1 or a new line of CsW as you say can happen i Germany !!!

But if, way are you just thinking of a F1 from Paul ??? there is more wolf mixt dogs in Germany then one !!! and I do not se how a American Wolfdog x CsV will be CsV standard like :?

And I do not think FCI or German kennel club is this stupide as you say ???
But I might be wrong ???

Now I se way Christian is angry !!! but way at Paul ??? way not FCI or the German Kennel club ???

Best regards / Mikael

Sorry but I really would like to know also, but, according Passo Del Lupo FCi gave this opportunity for every breed who isn't fixed yet ( that isn't the case of the CzW) :lol:

So, I search on FCI webpage about it, and I found nothing about "Pure breed certified" for "not fixed breeds" then, so far I know actually not fixed breeds yet nor even are recognized by FCI, so, its a nonsense in my sight untill someone proof the contrarie.

If nothing is write there so.. all those dogs are illegal by FCI rules, independant of the rules of the country who do it, but FCI seems to be not more than a expensive office.

Yes you are right :) that was me :lol:

But I do not expect it to be easy at all, it will be like to start over again...
Hard, expensive and take long time.

But for me it does not have to be a new line whit wolf, it can also be a CsV to GSD, but that is a nother topic i think...

Best regards / Mikael

Thank god I hope you are right !!! illegal they are !!!

Best regards / Mikael

can i just make one thing very clear to all you people who worry about one of my wolfdogs being used in breedings that may be registered as a CWD, forget about it, the people who own these wolfdogs have no interest at all in the CWD or of owning one, if they did they would have purchased one,,, you would think the CWD and SAARLOOS are the only two types of wolfdogs there is,, very wrong people in Europe, USA,Ireland and UK have been breeding wolfdogs for long time, we had wolfdogs in Ireland when i was young boy some 40 yrs ago, so rest assured the people i breed with and for do not and will never be registering or attempting to register anything we breed as a CWD.

Well there you go,,,,, if this is true as i am sure it could be, then here we have evedence of cross bred CWD with false pedigrees, no different to France,,,,,, WHAT FUTURE HAS THE CWD IF THIS IS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE,,,,,,,is this where the new health defects come from? the small CWD, shy and nervous ones with tails tucked up, ones that look like they have greyhounds cross, curly tails, no face mask, very sad,,,,,,,,,,

If you look at my web site you will see that my litter differed the pups that look more wolflike take after the mother, eye colour, rounded ears, but look at pups that follow father, colour as CWD, same eye colour as cwd, same coat colour as CWD, bigger ears as CWD,now if i cross one of the pups that look like father with CWD, then cross again next generation with CWD, i can and would bring the offspring back to look identical to Cwd but with slightly higher content, and i can assure you they would look more like the pure CWD than some dogs now registered as pure CWD on wolfdog.org but as i said before i have no interest in doing this and nor do the people i sell to and breed with in Europe, USA, Ireland,Germany, Holland,France and U.K. we love our wolfdogs and if its of any interest of all the friends i have only myself and one other person owns CWD.if the clubs every decided they did need new blood line for the CWD then if they ask nicely i already have wolfdog bitch f3 bred from Europen wolf which i would glady give to them, it would save them lots of time.......or i can give them use of European wolf,,,,,,,,,,

So what? There is much, much more to CSV BREED than looks!!! :evil: A CSW might look more like a wolf or a dog, but it is still a dog. With a hybrid - it might look like a CSV or dog or a wolf, but could inherit a character of a wolf.
Which responisble, honest breeder would sell such a creature to anybody as a dog? :shock:

I think like Rona, CsV is not about the look !!! it is about the work !!!

Paul do you do any work tests like SVP 3 :rock_3 or IPO ???

And whit al do respect I do not think the clubs will ask you, as the have no problem at all to get a European wolf from the zoo. (Prag ?) maybe...

And I think they wont to be 1000% sure of all added wolfbood, and I do not think they will trust a UK breeder ;-) or any other breeder neather :rock_3

I think that if you wont and have the experience you can develop a new breed, but that is a new breed and have nothing to do whit CsV...

And if you do ! Way do you wont more wolfbood ??? I would like to se a new beed whit less :rock_3 as less wolfbood is less problems ;-)

And as Nebulosa did say after that post, it can not be done legal on the CsV as it is a fixt breed already, THANK GOD !!! and if somebody do try it, it will be the illegal way...

Good luck whit your NEW breed, Best regards / Mikael

Mikael,
It's not accidental that whenever there is a topic about CSV in the UK it ends up as as a topic about mixbreeding wolves and dogs :cry: It seems to me some people are simply obsessed by this idea and CSVs and wolfdog.org are only a cover for getting more publicity for their completely different 'activities' :evil:

Yes you are right Rona :shock: in 100% !!!
By looking at the topic of history it does :cry: sad but true...

Thanks Rona for bringing it up !!!

Therefore I say by by :hand to of topic talk about CsV mixing in the UK topics...

Best regards / Mikael

I'm sorry but I do not only worry about your wolfdogpuppy used for breeding in to the breed of CSW.
I worry about al Wolfdogpuppy who can be a risk to the thoroughbred off the CSW.
I just used your WDpuppy only as a example if it was possible to do so ??, because you will not be the only f**l who create Wolfdog's :evil:.
And your WDpuppy wil defintly also not be the only one who can be a risk for the thoroughbred of the CSW :roll:.

Groette Martine.

No, its completly different, we are not talking about false pedigrees but about pure breed certified or initial register, have noting false there, only the descendence of those dogs are unknow at the papper, official papper that for be accepted for FCI must have 3 or 5 generation WHIT SHOW TITLES.
So, as you can see the problem is bigger than it, and don't think that it only evolves FCI.
And yes, so far I know you can also meet dogs with pure breed certified in france (or wheathever different name it has), but as all world those dogs are evaluate very low for the breed cause mostly breeds are against it, so, we enter in another problem still more deep.
That's why Mutara have legal pedigree for dogshows now, only can't be in international dogshows so far I know, untill they complet 5 generations.

And who is you for judge or even complain about it?
Sorry paul, but I agree with the others members here and I add the fact that you call yourself a very experienced breeder, so I wonder how could you nor even imagine that your mix sold to europe will not add soon in those blacklist of non pure dogs with CzW pedigree like Mutara, when its so easy make those pure breed papers officially? maybe is that mix castrated? Maybe yes, but I really think that not... if not, you're not than one of those who help to destruct our breed with mixes, no different than Mutara, you only comes here trying to explaine what you had do as if everything was flowers and perfect, pretty utopic.