For me it was easy ;-) as I had the list of all saarloos breeders in Europe :lol:
But if I´m missing someone I did it a FW e-mail ;-)

Maybe your breeder will not send you one now 8) I hope so...

Kisses and hugs / Mikael

OMG. You still don't understand. Keeping away from accidents did not prevent the csv from beeing banned in Norway, merely the fact that it was a csv - a dog breed started as a sientfic experiment by breeding wolves and dogs by the mid 1950ies made it a victim. What prevented the sw from beeing banned is the fact that its breeding started some twenty years earlier and thus a little less dangerous according to our authoryties. But still the sw is ballancing on the edge.

If you love your breed you must think in long terms, not egosentric like whatever might happend in the near future - my dog is safe and protected by law. That's one more of what horrifies me by your way of thinking.
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po

To Mikael: The breeder is not going to send me one, I am going to visit the breeder and get the pup personally and everything is already booked and reserved. So I dont think the breeder will care about some anonymous person whining that I get a dog that I have every right to have and break the deal.

And the breeder do perfectly understand that the dog will have a good life at my place since I have exchanged many mails with the breeder also about where I live and how the dog will live etc. So I dont think the breeder will care about my political views, especially since people in DDR dont love the "left side" too much since they too have experienced the "dark side" of socialism.

To Per Olav: You tell me that I shall think in long terms, thats what I do I know that no matter how the law will change my dog will still be legal just as your dog is since it got to Norway before CSV got banned. And by the way doesnt the same apply to you? You have bought a CSV knowing that the dog can get banned.....and now you tell me to not buy a SW since SWs can get banned.....

The SW is becoming an older and older race with each year that pass so the reason for banning them is smaller and smaller all the time, if the age of the race is why it balances on the edge. And the best proof that the race is not threatended by a ban is that a breeder started to breed SWs in Norway, do you think she would do it if the dogs were to get banned?

And I dont understand why you think that I am not suitable to own a SW....I am going to use much more time on training it than most average owners do. And also be extra carfull. So tell me why should I be a greater danger to the race than those 11 (maybe more are on the list now) other anonymous future owners of Saarloos in Norway. Plus all those who will get their dogs later on since the breeder will continue to breed Saarlooses and those who import them like me.....

I guess it's time to end this conversation. My dog was imported long time before a little boy was killed by a number of gsd/polar dog mutts and no one at that time even thought of breed spesific legislation and banning a breed just a few people knew the existence of.

Have a merry Christmas.
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po

I thought that banning of breeds in Norway started already in 1991.....but I shall not bother you more. I just doesnt understand why you think that I am less suitable to own a SW than all those other people who are going to own one in Norway...

Have a nice Christmas you too, and a Happy New Year! And I really hope you succeed in getting CSV legal in Norway and I think that showing the government how nice SWs are living in Norway will help your cause.

By 2001 there was no intentions of adding more breeds to the list of banned "fighting dogs", except for the Police who wanted a ban on the American Staffordshire Terrier cause its close relations to the previous banned Pitbull. No one ever dreamed of a proposal of banning the wolfdog breeds - which later was raised by members of what in popular terms is called the Norwegian association of wolf haters and its supporters which at that time strongly lobbyed our Ministry of Justice.
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po

Merry Xmas

Well I´m not going to tell Alexandra at kennel Tachunga nothing, I´m just going to give her the link to this topic, the rest is up to her ;-)

I might just help her whit translation if she wont´s to ;)

And I know that you love me to :bussi

Very best regards / Mikael

Yes ofc. just show the breeder the whole topic its no problem for me if I were in doubt that the breeder understands it that I will properly take care of the dog and use very much time on it, then do you think I would write about it here or link to the kennel on the polish forum (so you can go there watch the pictures and copy paste the internet adress)? Ahh and dont worry that you will have to "translate" the breeder speaks very well english (I didnt have to write german on the mail) so your great chance of "translating" it to your favour is sadly lost.

What you just dont understand is that people from other parts of the world outside Scandinavia wont blame me for hating socialism, since both in Poland or in DDR they know very well the "dark sides" of it. The best proof is this forum, after I wrote that I shall buy an SW that is legal in Norway people on the polish forum helped me to find a breeder and congratulated upon finding a pup that I can buy.

While here was a totally different approach that met me, you know very well that I will take good care of the SW and that its 100 % legal in Norway. Still you get mad because I found a legal solution of having a wolfdog in Norway. People in Poland know this too but the difference is that they dont care if I hate socialists cause many of them probably do it too... but since on this forum its not allowed to write about politics then I shall stop there.....

Dear webmaster/moderators
 

Please stop this ignorant young man from spreading his political nonsense and insulting other peoples political point of view on this forum.
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I already pity his dog (if he mangages to get one8)). What, if the poor animal will not be able to express support for his owners' political views, or, even worse, will not share them?! :lol::lol::lol:

Per sorry for intrusion on your post as i am not currently up to date with what is going on just from what i have read here, it is bad for such big corporations to do this, the tv has massive effect on the media and most people are just gulible enough to believe all they hear on the t.v. right or wrong, it is infringment of your privicy for them to remove your photos and then use them as to blackmail you, illegal,,,,,but you at present do have one thing in your favor, you know what they intend to do,,,, now is the time to capitalize on it,, you must jump in and get news out before they can, how many people on this web site can send you pics of CSV with there children, with other animals, all can be put on a web site, sureley there is magazine will let you do article on the CSV, a news paper? all the people on this site and all friends must sign petition now? get it started today,, we had ban in uk but it already existed before i got my CWS to uk, but this is different as it will lead to new ban which may never come right again for CVS in Norway, Per you must stand up and defend your dogs, even if it is against your way of life or all you stand for, you may only get one go at this, agree to do interview but conditions are you are allowed to bring a wolfdog with you, and make sure a young child walks it into the studio,,,,,,,,i had lot of people sign pettition many years ago on wolfdog.org and it helped a lot,,, it is very hard for you but go for it, the CSV and Per in Noway need your help all wolfdog owner get of your asses and do something mail this guy , there are enough of you to help, we get plenty of posts so you all have the time, Per from the czech owners in uk what can we do to help CONTACT US,,,,as for the Saarloos people you shoul be totally ashamed of yourselfs and it will not be forgotten,

AND DONT FORGET IF THE BAN GOES AHEAD IT IS AN EXCUSE FOR MAYBE THE GOVERNMENT OF YOUR COUNTRY TO BAN THEM WHERE YOU LIVE NEXT...............

Why what do you wish me banned for now Per Olav? Answering your posts in a polite manner where I answered politically only where you first touched the politics?

Or maybe for answering Mikael in the most polite manner possible after he did all he could to try to provoke me to say something that would be not polite on a debate forum. I havent said a single abusive word. And where I answered politically it was because it was asked for. You cant ask about politics and then shout "ban him cause he answers with politics".....if I shall get banned then the other users asking me things that are politically connected should to get banned for politics on the forum.

But I totally dont understand why politics are forbidden in a topic about the law, but I dont argue with that I just wish that there shall be some justice, if someone provokes me and asks about political things then I must be allowed to answer with politics or else the person who writes about politics in a post adressed to me should too be banned.

But I hope that the moderator shall read all the posts including those that Mikael wrote to me before I answered him, and that the moderator will understand that I have just answered politely to his posts....and that there is no reason to ban me.

As for the case of the dog....if people say like Rona did in this topic that I am not suitable to have a SW because of my politic beliefs, then I dont know how I can answer to such posts without touching the politics.

My politic beliefs are not a reason to say that I will not be a good enough owner of a SW, and no objective person will say that someone will not be a good owner of a dog because of his political beliefs. The best proof of this is that people on the polish forum actually were helpfull with giving me info about how to find SW breeders and actually I also got congratulated upon the fact of finding a SW pup that I can buy.

Saarlooses are 100 % legal in Norway, there is even a norwegian breeder of them and there are many people in Norway waiting to get a pup from the litters planned in Norway and others who rather import their pup like me and this is also 100 % legal. So I dont understand what is the problem of the people that criticise me......

If you don't understand why, there's in my opinnion no way of explaining it in a way that is understandble to you.

As a novice to this forum it certainly is better ways than yours when addressing people who is unknown to you. As a possible owner of a wolfdog this forum is a absolute must for anyone interrested in discussing different topics related to wolfdogs and their behaviour. Bullying people is not the way of doing this.

Btw I did not want you banned, just making an end of posting your unwanted political views on this forum.
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po

Well I have already said that I have ended posting political views here, but when people are posting posts here adressed to me with political content then as I have said I dont know how to respond to them without touching the politics. So I hope no one bans me for answering people....

If someone tell me that they think the reason of my unsuitableness for having a SW is my political views like Rona did:

Quote:
"I already pity his dog (if he mangages to get one8)). What, if the poor animal will not be able to express support for his owners' political views, or, even worse, will not share them?! :lol::lol::lol:"

Then how do you think this can be answered without talking about politics?

Well I dont think that I have "bullyed" anyone (If having a different point of view is "bullying" then maybe I have but I didnt know it was "bullying") but if anyone feel "bullyed" then I am very sorry for that.

I do always try to respond in a polite manner, even when people try to provoke me like Mikael did (if you read his posts then you will probably see that I havent been more unpolite to him than he have been to me, maybe even less). And the reason I am on this forum is exactly to get more information about the wolfdogs, since there is no separate SW forum so a wolfdogforum should be most suitable forum then for owners of Saarlooses.

As for the best of the breed well then I think its positive that Saarlooses are more and more common in Norway and that even someone decided to breed them in Norway. If people and the government see that Saarlooses are nice and friendly dogs then I think it can only be positive for the CSVs and for the case of lifting the ban....and as I said if you need any petition signed or some other help in political pressure on the government to lift the ban I will gladly help......

??????????

According to the official site of Norway it´s forbidden to own, breed and import dangerous dogs. Dogs, who arose from a crossing between dog and wolf, are considered as dangerous - without regard to the particular part of wolf.

Thereafter Saarloos wolfhonds are not really safe in Norway.

Thank you, Mikael :):)

.... or does not like vodka as much as his owner does???!! :rock_3:lol::lol::lol:

Be careful Angelika, this might also be interpreted as writing about politics ;) :lol::lol::lol:

Yes and No
 

SW is legal but surely not safe. That's why I'm worried. New inexperienced owners not knowing what they are facing may be extremely harmful in the efforts of changing the law. A new breeder selling pups to fanciers of the sw wolfy look and behavior may be more harmful than anything else. I really do hope the breeder is aware of that. For time beeing my mood is down thinking of the uncertain future of the sw i Norway.

Per Olav, here is a litttle Christmas gift to cheer you up, with a special dedication for Norwegian Authorities.

New (and non-political ;)) version of the Little Red Riding Hood image:lol:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bAyOqInM93Q/Sy...rwonym%201.jpg

She's just smashing beautiful, isn't she :p
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po

... rather a real darling as the vast majority of our CSVs are! :)

What a glamorous girl!!! :):):)

How can someone ban this beauty?? (not politically meant ;-):lol::lol:)

Its not meant to be unpolite but I have just something especially for Mikael since he likes me so much as he writes under his posts :lol:

Here is the response from the breeder that I got after you sent her your mail:

Quote:

"
Hi,

a heavy discussion on wolfdog.org :) you don't have to defend you and your meaning. This is wolfdog.org a place only for CSV they don't want SWH because it's konkurenz dogbreed. You go the correct way to take a dogbreed who is legal in you country. Wish everybody a merry christmas and say god by to them.

We also have a SWH forum I can ask if it is possible to make a english section. Than you can comunikate with swh owners if you are interested.
When all is going right you can pik up your puppy on 30.01. Because I can't guarantee it now there can be an accident or illnes or death or somthing I never wish to have. You don't have to pay now only when you whish it to fix our agreement. When you want it then I send you my datas.
I must ask you again, the paper for the mattilsynet, do you need it with post or with email?

have a nice day and don't fight on wolfdog.org :))))) it's lost time!

Alex"

End of quote.

I hope Mikael that you are happy now, cause I am 8)

And yes I do already know how much you like me :)

I hope that all other users wont find my reply as unpolite or "bullying" I am just replying to Mikael in the same way that he was talking to me so it shouldnt be anything bad I hope.

And as advised I wish you all once again a merry christmas and a happy new year!

(And I hope you wont ban me so I can maybe some time write something on the forum about the dog etc. (until a SWH forum becomes created) with the users that are friendly with me here.)

This is not correct. SW and CSV never was competing breeds and both breeds may be held by same owners because their unlikeness by behaviour and usability.

I deeply regret Alex's attitude and answer. In my opinnion this mean no good for the future of the Saarloos in Norway.
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Well its not me that mean that the breeds are concurents (I like very much both SW and CSV), but either way people who meant that I wasnt suitable to own a dog because of my political views were wrong. And now it have been proved.

I wish the best for both SW and CSV and if to unban the CSV its needed to sign any petition or anything I will gladly help as I said before. And if I get some useful information from people who are friendly here, in the wolfdog topics about how to best train the dog then it will be very nice.

I have never meant to "bully" anyone and to Mikael I just answer in the same way that he talks to me.

I hope you all will have a nice Christmas!

I've never heard keeping of dogs in general was a political issue. My guess is that you on this forum will find people of very different political platforms, but politics are rarely a subject of this forum or any forum discussing dogs.

The SW situation in Norway is fragile and depending on owners who are known to and familiar with the breed and it "peculiarities". Our authorities have since long stated that a small step outside the path may be disasterous to the breed. If someone make an official complaint about feeling the dog as a threat, scared by a dog's howling, growling etc this may lead to another discussions of the wolfdogs as "dangerous breeds". And to me it seem you have no idea of what you are facing in respect to your opponents on the anti wolf and wolfdog platform. It's a pity this is not understood. Instead of fighting someone's right to keep a SW just because it by now is legal - it's a fragile right. I'll better see you talking to experienced SW owners, observing their dogs and their behaviour and by that getting more experienced to this breed. And if you then decide that a SW is the right breed for you - why not start fighting for changing the law as a whole and by that securing the future of the SW inside the border of your country.
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Because it isn't.:) Unless somebody suffers from an obsession (like XaedasKSP does) and has an obtrusive need to associate everything with it. :twisted: In my opionion, "torturing" people in every post with one's political views, whatever they are, on a dog forum IS bullying!:(

If I were the SW breeder I would definitely inform myself and learn more about the situation of dogs and esp. wolfdogs in Norway before sending my pup there. Unfortunately, some people tend to extrapolate their own intentions on others (at least so it seems :cry:), which is just sad. If SW are banned in Norway, which might happen any time in the light of what is happenning there at the moment, CSV will be banned even more - in such circumstances competition between the two breeds would be absurd. :p

Per Olav, I fully understand your anxiety since your true worry about the CSV breed and hard work over several years on building its positive image in the Norwegian society may be now ruined by a few irresponsible owners who are unable to understand the sensitive situation of the wolfdog breeds in your country:(. I guess Angelika was writing about such people last year:
I cannot agree more and only hope Norwegian wolfdogs' fate would be better than Majlo's. Even if Majlo survives, I cannot imagine the effects of such a long separation of any wolfdog from his pack :(

Well if you have read some of my last posts, then I have written there that I try to find every possible info on the internet about the SWH and I am trying to find some extra literature about them and how to properly train them. And I hope I will find something. Either way if I wont know how to properly teach the dog regarding some kind of behaviour then I shall ask the breeder or/and ask on the forum below in the wolfdog topic.

As for the time being I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks and meanwhile learn everything possible about SWHs. As for finding other owners in Norway well I think this can be rather difficult in the area where I live. I know just about the SWH breeder in Trondheim but its like over 600 kilometers from the place where I live.

And as for the wolfdogs I think that it can only help if there will be many SWHs in Norway. Since it will prove that CSV can be safe too. And I know that there are maybe many opponents of wolfes in Norway (although I have never met one in person only on the webforums) but I hope I wont have any problems with them. If I ever get wolfopponents knocking on my door or meet them anywhere then I shall ofc. ask for your advice as to how to properly respond to them.

And as I said before if you need any help with any political pressure to make the future of SWH and CSV safer in Norway then I shall gladly help. And I shall definitly not be an "irresponsible" owner.

I wish you all a great christmas time, and a wonderful new year!

You don't learn by reading on a forum, at the most you get some information which you carefully have to select the importance of by yourself. You learn by the help and supervision of experienced owners or trainers and then practicing what you've learned by your own. There are no Norwegian dog trainers knowing this breed.

You don't know of any other owners except one living 600 km away, and still you are confident in traing a wolfdog, a breed unknow to anyone but a handfull? And what about quarrantine? If you get your dog from abroad I suppose you have to follow normal import procedures - including rabies testing, quarrantining etc?

The more inexperienced owners the greater chance for making real trouble for the serious ones. The future of the Norwegian SW's already is fragile.

SWs have been poisoned and killed inside their dog yard. The only breeder ended his kennel some years ago because of the safety of his dogs. Some time ago I was requested by this breeder to host a dog for a newly started SW kennel cause this experienced former breeder did not want to expose the dog and himself for any more trouble by the opponents of the breed. You hardly meet Norwegian SW owners at dog shows and they don't take part in any public discussion or on national foras. Except for one, SW owners of this country do not exist in public. What do this tell you?

Heaven forbid,

In my opinnon you've already proven to be one. My sympathy to the responsible SW owners of this country.

Well as for the law rules regarding import I have a good overview of them since I have both read the rules from "mattilsynet" and spoken with "mattilsynet" personally about the import. Germany is listed as a rabies free nation so after I give an import declaration to the "mattilsynet" they shall give me an import allowance of a pup below 3 months. So there will be no quarantine etc. The customs need only the paper from the "mattilsynet" that I will get before the import.

If everybody had to relay on other SW owners then there would be only SW owners in Trondheim, but from what I know there are going to be many new SW owners in Norway in 2010 and probably many of them will live far away from Trondheim. So it should be possible by using a proper amount of time, patience and carefullness to properly train a SW. And I am not totally unexperienced since I have about 14 years of experience with a German Sheperd.

And if you say that SW owners dont exist in public well then maybe its the reason why the law is so "unsafe". In England the CSV was banned too and then they took a very public course of action which made the ban lifted. So maybe its something to think about I dont know. The wolfhaters are like 0,1 % of the whole population I think or maybe I have just had the luck of never meeting anyone of them. I think you can find more "rotweiler-haters" in Norway, and still Rotweilers are not in danger of being illegal.

I think that the other reason of not meeting so many SW owners on the foras is that the race is not so well known as the CSV so its not only in Norway but in other countries too that its hard to find any SW forum, it was even hard to find the breeders in Europe (where the dog is not in any "unsafe" position) so the cause is maybe the rareness of the breed too.

If you already think that I am an "irresponisible" owner....well I dunno what you do base this statement upon other than the fact that I think that more publicity about a race and more knowledge will just be good and not bad. I think that most "bans" and quarries between people come from the lack of knowledge and the fear of the "unknown".

I think there are few dog owners that use/will use so much time and effort on their dog and really care about it. And I am not a person that do easily give up when meeting on difficulties. I am not confident that I will do it perfectly or anything like that but I know that with enough effort it should go well and I can always ask both the breeder and other people who own SWs if something is not as it should be.

I think that it could be wiser to think about those anonymous 11 or more new SW owners that will get their dogs in 2010 in Norway than about me. What is hidden from the public eyes is more often the reason of something not wanted that happen. Instead of using your efforts on criticising me because I am going to have a SW, it could be actually better to give some helpful advice......(just dont tell me to resign from buying the dog).

Dear XaedasKSP,

after reading this very long and heavy discussion,
I must say that it seems to me that you just discovered the breed.
For how long time have you really known about the CzW or the SW?
Just by reading this discussion, I am under the impression of that you discovered CzW somewhere in November 2009 and then was seriously considering to import a CsW Illegally to Norway! Shame on you!

And then suddently you discovered the Saarloos, and it seems like you made an reservation as soon as you knew about its existence...

I my opinion this is not responsible, no matter what kind of breed you choose. This is not a decission you should make over the nigth.

14 years of walking the family`s german shepherd don`t automaticly make you experienced as a dog owner. It does`nt really matter how many years you owned a dog or not, it is more about what you experience together with your dog during these years. And what you make of it.

I am not convinced that you have taken enougth time to consider this.

You should respect the knowledge from more experienced owners and breeders, listen to their advice and take them seriously.
Listen their advice and memorize them.

Listen to Per Olav. The situation with both of these breeds in our country is VERY fragile. Owning a wolfdog in such as our country, follows a huge RESPONSIBILITY!

Hope you understand what I`m talking about, despite my kinder-garden english...

Merry christmas to you all & Best wishes for the new year to come..

Best regards,
Steffen

I do know of the responsibility its is something needed when owning any dog not only a wolfdog. As for the advice well here on this forum I havent heard any advice regarding keeping of the wolfdog itself.....

If it goes about my knowledge of the dogs then I have heard about the CSV long ago but didnt plan then to own a dog, so when I decided to get a dog then I did check more info about it and in the end found out that it really is banned in Norway in a way that makes it impossible to own the dog in Norway until it gets legalized. While learning more about the CSV I did also discover the Saarloos and got more info about it. And after reading the breed characteristic I found out that it is very similar to the CSV in character and that some of its traits are even better for me and the place where I do mainly live. Therefore I decided to get a Saarloos. And while I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks, I do try to get most possible info about how to properly train a Saarloos so it can be a nice company dog for me and dont get into any "accidents". Ahh and I didnt make the reservation "over night" it took like 2 weeks to find a breeder with wolfgrey pups for sale after a long search through the internet and asking many breeders who didnt have any litters or planned ones soon.

As for the situation of the wolfdogs in Norway, well I think that publicity can only make it better like it did in the UK (some other people do also share this view and for example the Norwegian SW breeder got a homepage where they tell about the SWs, so its wrong to say that every owner of SW in Norway tries to "hide"). But since people got different points of view regarding how to make the situation of SW safer in Norway and unban the CSV then it becomes fast something to argue about.

What I plan to do is to get the legalising of CSV on the list of things to be done by the political party that I am a member of, so they can put this case first in "Fremskritt" (the partys newspaper), then on the "landsmøte", eventually to be voted upon in the Storting. Without going to deep into politics (so I dont get banned again) I can say that FrP care very much about the freedom of the individual so this case of banning a breed and preventing people from owning it with no real reason of doing so will be something that they shall gladly try to solve when they get the proper knowledge about the case. I dont want to talk especially about politics here but since the law is connected with the politics I cant just skip them since changing the law requires political action. I hope the moderator will understand this and dont ban for talking about politics when trying to change a law.

I hope you all have a nice Christmas, and again I wish you all a happy new year!

Dear XaedasKSP,
Though deeply in my soul I think your "case" is hopeless ;-), I want to make a few things clear, just to have clear conscience in the future:
1. A few months ago I talked with somebody from DEFRA who explained to me very precisely why the ban on wolfdogs in the UK was lifted. I don't want to go into details, but the reasons were entirely different from what you imagine. And unlike you, I don't specatulate what they might have been, but know what they were.

2. If you had spent enough time on reading the forum you would have known that the problems of wofldogs in the UK are totally different than in Norway and wouldn't notoriously be practising "wishful thinking" and speculating about the products of your imagination. :|

3. Wolfdog.org is a very rich source of information about bringing up pups, about living with wolfdogs - lots of topics on how to train them, how to solve problems, anticipate difficulties, etc.!!! From what you write, one can clearly see you haven't read many threads, if any at all. You complain that people do not help you get informed, but have you asked any specific questions? Have you enquired about anything? So far you've been writing mainly about yourself! Per Olav and other experienced owners and breeders try to get you informed, but your reaction so far has been weird - you keep convincing everyone that you know better! (which sadly, doesn't show in what you're writing :cry:)

Just to give you an example: GSD, CSV and SW are different breeds. Have you read topics about differences among them? There are quite a few good threads on the English and Polish forums. If you had, you wouldn't have stated that you're a potential 'experienced' owner of a wolfdog due to the fact that you owned a GSD :twisted:.

5. You write that you studied legal regulations, rules, etc. but people who are older and have experienced more are aware that there is more to life than "papers". Often the 'unwritten' knowledge is more important and more valuable than readings. Noone sane would let a surgeon operate on a patient if his expertise came only from books or reading of a forum for surgeons. Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you? :rock_3(Naprawdę życzliwie!!!:))

If Per Olav, who is one of the most experienced, conciliatory, and kindest people on this forum, who has been involved in struggling for the breed in Norway for years now, tries to tell you something, why don't you listen to him? Why do keep arguing with somebody who's trying to save you and your dog from serious troubles in the future? Why don't you appreciate that he's offerring you his time, by explaining the same things again and again? You may not be aware of this, but you sound very arrogant and self-confident in tone, but turn very ignorant when it comes to content. You simply don't know how little you know about wolfdogs :(, behave as if you knew everything, but in fact refer only to what you imagine, not to facts!

Nobody here is telling you that you shouldn't buy a wolfdog, but everybody advises you to be patient, to educte yourself, to see the dogs live, to become more aware of what their needs and situation in the country are, not only on paper, but in reality, etc. before you actually get one.

If you are unable to listen to people, who're using your language, how will you be able to listen to your wolfdog, whose communication system is much more subtle and indirect? If you don't listen to you dog, you won't be able to build a sound relationship with him; if you don't, you'll sooner or later be in trouble.This is exactly what some forum members mean, when they say that you're unsuitable owner: you've shown here that you're not a good listener, which is the crucial characteristic of a good wolfdog owner.

I really wish you'd get a wolfdog one day, but remember: wofldogs' main purpose is to teach their owners modesty. We love our wolfish pets, though this "educational process" is sometimes painful in mental and sometimes even physical and economic sense. The 'quality' of the owner can be measured by how he recieves these 'lessons' and how much he is able to learn from them. It's still worse, if the costs have to be paid by the dogs, and this is what Per Olav and Steffen seem to fear most, while you treat their worries as a personal crusade against you.:roll:

Please, treat this honest post of mine as a Christmas gift, and reflect upon it before you start "fighting back".:)
Merry Christms!
Rona

PS. One more piece of advice: if you really care for the wd breeds, keep anything concerned with them, as far as possible from politics, as Per Olav advises you! Show at least here, that youy're ready to learn from the more exeperienced!

I am only an owner...by far, no expert. I have never met a Saarloos before - the high degree of health and breeding issues, and skittish nature described in this breed turned me away from it - not quite as naive, I now realize these things also exist with the CSV - there is a lot of careful work to be done within both breeds. I own 3 adult CSVs, and an 8 month old male - a full brother and sister (different litters) from Finland, a female from CZ, and a male from Italy - same breed, mostly diverse from one another (except for the siblings). When I got my first female, I "broke the rules" and decided to import without visiting the breeder. I had worked with dogs most of my life - and for a short while - wolves. I read, and read, and researched the breed, and the lines of my dogs for 8 months before my first dog arrived. I bought a house and property, and set up a kennel yard in such a way, that even if a dog with the abilities of a superhero emerged from the airplane, I felt confident in my facilities to protect my dogs and neighbors. I spoke with owners in the US - I contacted owners abroad and asked many questons. Last spring, I had the opportunity to travel to Europe, and see many different CSVs, including the parents/siblings of some of my dogs. The breed became a journey for me, not a destination...

Despite all of the research, I still was not completely aware of what I was purchasing...IT CAN'T SIMPLY BE READ ABOUT...Even though most/many CSV personalities embrace the standard, each dog has a distinctly unique set of quirks: some which are positive, some that are very challenging - some that could be dangerous if one did not recognize and address the behavior effectively, and allowed it to escalate - these signs are very subtle, and frequently not at all like a GSD, or any other breed, or even a wolf. And then, there are the oddball puppies who don't meet the standard...I have met CSVs with even stronger and bolder personalites than mine - with the experience, patience, and dedication of their owners, they were really exciting dogs to watch in training. I've met the same type of dog with inexperienced owners...the dogs were time bombs waiting to injure someone because they were not placed in an appropriate home. Experience is not something to only read about...it involves an investment of time, "getting your hands dirty", of money for proper facilities quite often (I can't imagine working with my dogs if they did not have time and space to run SAFELY unleashed with other dogs, and simply "be dogs"), a huge degree of humiliation, and a huge amount of cleverness and discipline to make the dogs realize their full potential - especially in front of critics. Experience must be through observation and practice. The new owner should be settled, with limited possibilites of life changing events that could disrupt healthy ownership - I am 27 - still young - I know firsthand how quickly life changes at our age in this generation. Looking back, I was foolish not to heed the warnings of experienced breeders to meet the breed first, to know it, to see it with objective eyes - and only lucky that I didn't pay some huge price. This is a unique creature with good, but also very difficult qualities...not simply an entity to be possessed someone that adores the wolf, or by someone who doesn't want to be told what to do by "the man".

As I have begun the process of placing my first litter, I can use my own mistakes to learn from, and really reflect on where my puppies should go - but it is still a murky process. I have received over 200 inquiries...thus far, I have turned down about 90% of the potential owners...it's something I think all breeders should think about so heavily....

Knowing what the "right move" is with this breed, in terms of legality, upbringing, feeding, training, breeding - or anything else...is not light or easy. Accidents WILL happen...

I love my dogs and breed immensely...but to love is to accept them for what they really are...and not what we fantacize about, or justify in our mind. We must provide what they really need, even if it means sacrificing our own time, money, or happiness sometimes.

Whatever your future holds...I hope it is successful and prosperous.

Marcy

Dear XaedasKSP.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Then I once again do regret your lack of knowing the body of politics and how laws are made.

First of all I apply to you to search once more and carefully study what is available to the public concering the Norwegian Dog Law and its Breed Spesific Legislation - which in this matter mean the reasons why certain breeds are banned. Secondly you should be aware of papers received by others but the decisionmakers do influence the making of laws and third the fact that a huge amount of papers are not available, e g from people on this forum and other foras our Ministry received close to a thousands mails and petions informing of the breeds. Mails and information which influence to the Ministry were less to none.

You also should bear in mind that if not for the knowledge of the spokesman of your Party - a close and dear friend of mine and a breeder of a large breed herself -the outcome of your Party's voting of BSL would be rather unpredictable. Now this MP has resigned from politics and no one can tell which side your party will support if the dog law once again should be debated by our Parliament.

Beeing unaware of the fact that some SW owners are residing in your proximity and do have homepages describing the breed do tell me something of your efforts in seeking and also getting some "in real life" information. Myself I've requested one of them to contribute to this thread, if he decide to do so future will show.

As Rona writes - the "UK situation" is not comparable to the Norwegian one.

and at last - Claressa - a country fellow man of yours has been to the Czech Republic studying the training of these breeds. Fortunately he made up his mind of not possessing one. To my knowledge he is a skilled owner training his dog by the Norwegian Rescue Dog Organization.
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po

Well I dunno who to answer first but I do too again wish you all a Happy New year and I hope you had a nice Christmas.

Maybe I shall start in chronological order:

So first of all Rona: Thank you for your gift I dont intend to "fight back" just comment some things from your nice and long post.

Starting with a personal religious feeling about me (just dont tell me that souls are not religion) Quote: "Though deeply in my soul I think your "case" is hopeless :wink:" end of quote. you are not very objective.

I just have to comment that gladly many people on the polish forum were more objective and they helped me with giving links to SW breeders homepages and supported my idea of getting a SW. I write this just so the debatants who dont understand polish and cant read the polish forum, dont think that you represent all the people from the polish forum.

1. As for the lifting of the ban well maybe I dont know so perfectly what have happend in the UK but what I know is that if no proper action will be taken then the whole case in Norway will just lie dead as it have done since the ban. So if someone wish the CSV ban to be lifted a little sooner than when our grandgrand children will be able to buy CSVs, then all possibilities are worth trying or so do I think and thats why I thought of most naturally using the political party that I am a member of to get the case of lifting the ban upwards in the system. A political party have much greater power than single individuals and if they support lifting of the ban then we will be much closer the ban being lifted.

2. Ok my bad I havent read enough about the case, but still I think that something can be done instead of just sitting and wishfully thinking that the dog will get unbanned by itself. Ahh ok I am sorry I know people have done a public protest action and now are doing some hidden actions but if those hidden actions dont give any result in many years. Then it cant harm to try some more public kind of action and it might actually work and this time not an action that is public because some people support it, but supported by a political party (thats when the authorities start caring).

3. & 4. I have said that in the responses that I got in this thread there were no advice other than "Skip buying the dog, no matter what you do you will never be good enough to have a wolfdog" that was the "advice" here compressed to a short statement. Of course in other threads and topics there are some valuable info I think, that I am reading even if Per Olav think that: Quote "You don't learn by reading on a forum" End of Quote

I do still think that there are many interesting topics that bring valuable information. But I do always have the breeder to ask for the most valuable info and literature about wolfdogs although I dont know if its good enough since its hard to find any "guidebook" precisely about the SW.

As for the experience well I have never stated that I am experienced with wolfdogs because I have had a GSD, I just said that I have experience with dogs in general and that I am not someone who is gonna buy a SW as the first dog in the life.

Regarding the experience, well if people were thinking in this way then there would be no new owners of SWs since you cant be experienced with the dog without having it.....and if you in order to have it need to be experienced...then it becomes a locked circle.

BTW I think that in Poland this whole thing is much easier than in other places, since I do see on the polish forum people who keep their dogs in flats inside a block or who get their pups before they are 7 weeks or its their first experience with owning a dog (any dog) and no one is bombing them with criticism.....but actually I wasnt too bombed with criticism on the polish forum but advised how to easier find a SW breeder.

As for the costs of having a wolfdog well I am prepared that the dog can do more "fun things" than any other kind of dog, so I prepare for the "educational process" with most possible patience and time as for the mental aspects. As for the physical ones well I am not small by nature so I should be strong enough :P And as for the economic ones well even if the dog eats half of my house I shall not go bancrupt :P

As for other preparations well then as I have said I am reading everything possible about SWs and wolfdogs in general and asking the breeder by mail when I wonder about something special about the dog + I got description of the pups by the breeder and the breeder herself advised me which pup will probably be the best one for me. I dunno if I am good enough prepared but I am at least more prepared than many other owners I have read about who just bought their CSV or SW on an impulse with 0 preparations or even theoretical reading about the race. And its still a month until I shall pick up my pup from Germany.

Now lets answer GalomyOak:

First of all I must congratualte you upon being the first person in this topic to answer me and write about the race and your own experience without criticising me personally =D I do appreciate this.

As for your experience its nice to read it all I just have to stop in the place when you say its required to own a possesion with a especially prepared kennel etc. Since many people are living with CSVs in blocks in Poland for example and claim that it goes perfectly well.

Personally my main place of living (and that is where the dog shall live) is a large house (350 m2) with a large garden the posession is about 1500 m2 and forests close by. So space shall not be a problem although I dont plan to build a kennel since I want to keep the dog inside the house when it shall sleep or rest etc. Since I wish to keep it as a company dog, (It shall ofc. be some hours during the day in the garden to run around in addition to the walks to the woods) so I plan to have it with me in the house preferably than in a kennel and I hope it shall go well.

And for the last answer to Per Olav:

Well I do know a little about the making of laws (since I study law) but ofc. not close to as much as you do so I shall not argue.

As for my political party then I am pretty sure that when they get explained the reason of CSV being banned and that it wasnt the same reason as with the other dogs then they shall very quickly write about the case in their newspaper and talk about it on the "landsmøte" (The fact that Kristin Halvorsen asked for revoting of the ban in order to get the CSV banned, will probably, be also something important to point at for FrP).

As for me being unaware of the SW owners in my proximity well its not so easy to find them on the internet. I have done a big effort searching for the breeders and I found the Norwegian breeder for example only because of the help from a Finnish breeder because the homepage of the Norwegian breeder: http://www.ulveblikk.com/ didnt come up in Google when searching for Saarloos breeder. And first later on I got response from the German breeder that I am going to buy the pup from. (Earlier I got response from a Czech breeder but I decided to wait for a wolfgrey pup rather than buy a forestbrown one).

But if you know some SW owners in Telemark (thats where I live mainly and where the dog shall live all the time), Vestfold (its close to both Telemark and Oslo) or Akershus/Oslo (I got examinations on my university there) who got some homepages then feel free to link to them since they cant be found in google at least not with the normal seeking words like Saarloos Wolfhond etc. Ah and as far as I know Rogaland is nearly as far away as Trondheim from the place where I live, ah btw never mind now I see Claressa is not the SW owner you mentioned.

As for the situation in Norway well maybe its totally different but I know of many examples where some laws were changed after a political party started supporting the change. And since people said that it was egoistic to only care about mine dog and not the future of the race as a whole then this can be my effort to try to lift the ban on CSV and make the future of SW safer. If it works then it will be fantastic if it doesnt well at least I will try to do something for the wolfdogs in general.

And either way if my keeping of the SW will be a success and everything will go well and the SW becomes adult and still everything will go well then later on after the CSV gets unbanned (if it can happen in the next 10 years) I plan to own a CSV as dog number 2.

BTW thanks for the help, for the first time in this whole topic I see you are actually trying to help me (instead of criticising me) and told me that there are SW owners in Norway who live close to my place thats nice =D

XaedasKSP

There might be some SW owners not far away from you, but they have to "unvail" themselves - I'm not the one to do so.

As I've mentioned before the law should been reviewed as a whole not only the BSL part of it. And I regret you violating the efforts of many good people by making this a urgent matter of personal interrests because your explisit wishes of a wolfy look alike dog.
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po

I suppose some Polish forum members were simply relieved you gave up the idea of buying a CSV, which are illegal in Norway :) They probably don't read English forum, don't realize the specific and sensitive situation of SW in Norway and the possible harm people like you may do to both breeds through their irresponsible "actions". 8)

On reading your answer I see talking with you is useless. Bye :hand

I'm making your words mine. Bye.
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po

Yes, that (I think) is exactly the case. :D

Quote: "And I regret you violating the efforts of many good people" End of Quote

So because I will get a SW then you think that I will violate the efforts of many good people. So if 11 + other anonymous people will get a SW from the Norwegian breeder and later on many more it will be absolutely ok, but mine SW will violate all the efforts.....well I think its a strange way of thinking but I cant help it if you think so then you are allowed to do so.

But the future can prove it wrong after I will have my SW for a long period of time without anything getting "violated"......

It should be wise to sit on my fingers :)

This is not about you - I don't know you and neither do the other members of this forum. Our concern is about anyone who may jeopardize the time consuming work of changing the law. 11+ more or less ignorant owners, no matter the dogs origin mean 11+ more chances of ending the story of the Saarloos Wolfhound in Norway. Because the breed is defined as a - not even a possible but a de facto - dangerous breed, there's no pardon for wolfdogs showing bad behaviour. And dogs do behave... what is considered bad is not up to the owner to decide. Someone may provoke the dog or treat it badly and by that getting the oportunity of accusing it for bad behavior. Even a minor accident which would be considered harmless if carried out by any other dog would do. Which may be fatal not only to the wolfdog itself - but to the future of a breed which by law is reputed dangerous. Not because of its doing but by heritage. It is a simple as that. The law do warn that any accident caused by a SW may lead to reconsidering the legal right of keeping the breed in this country. In my opinnion this should be clearly understood and kept in mind by anyone long before even thinking of purchasing a SW. Have you made the necessary preparations and are you and the 11+ ready for the responsibility?
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po

Yes I am ready for the responsibilty probably more than many of those 11+. And if you really want to be the hero, why dont you organise a puppy course for wolfdogs. I think that both me and many of the future wolfdog owners will join in this so you can teach us how to train our SWs and how to avoid the wolfhaters.

I think that many people who are going to buy a SW will join as long as you dont charge the tripple or higher price for the pup course than on other courses for pups. And we will also travel to your place. So this could be an idea of doing something good for the wolfdogs in Norway. The breeder in Trondheim is not planning something like that but maybe you could to help both the new owners and the whole breed to avoid any accidents. And I promise if you will make something like that there will be many new SW owners with their pups who will attend this pup training course. Maybe it will work better if the course will be in like a week and everyone can book a hotel for that week and attend with the pup instead of something like coming once a week. I dunno if its a good idea but maybe it could work.

Believe me, I have no intention beeing heroic in that way:p Raising a by nature skittish and far from easy trainable breed as the sw is not learned by attending a puppy course, it's a life long challenge and living in your country it certainly may be a complex one. Wishing you and the 11+ the very best. Good luck.

Sure, you are supposed to take care of another living creature.
But this is not what I am talking about.
I think Per Olav describing it some better in this post: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=243


Haha! Personally I don`t think 2 weeks are any better. If I were you I would at least try to visit a breeder, before making a desision about if I should purschase a saarloos or not. And also I don`t think color should be so important, I think it is more important to find the rigth induvidual suited for you.


A littlebit disrespectful I think. In my opinion he already is a hero:)
No one else that I know of has made such a great effort to avoid or lift the banning. Your doing a great job Per Olav, after visiting your webpage I can see that you also write like a true professional!

Best regards,
Steffen

Good luck with your SW pup. It took me six months to find my first one. The Saarloos can be a very difficult dog to live with and not good with strangers or visitors. I had to move house and buy land to walk my dogs on as my neighbours didn't like them at all; even though they always told me how much they like dogs!

The situation in the UK is not very good. Since the change in the law many wolfdogs and cross breeds of wolfdogs have been sold and now a lot of them are for re-homing. People found that they do not suit their 'life style'. Owning one of these dogs means you have to change your life to suit your dog!

Have a good new year 2010.

Well one of my points, was exactly that I live on the outside of a small city and there are very few people who live around my place and there is a nice big forest very close. So a dog that dont like many people around should be happy with the surroundings of the place where I live.

I wish you all a fantastic, successfull new year!

Remember that the SW learns everything in the first 4 months of life. This is the time to socialise him with everybody you know; adults, children and animals. Both mine were horrible pups but matured well!

;)

I have at last got my little wolfie to Norway today. Everything went well with the travel (with the exception of my father having to travel with the pup since I couldnt lend a car in Germany because you have to be 25 to do it), and the customs on Gardermoen where very kind since they didnt make any "drama" when they found out that there is nothing about the Echinococcus worm pill written in the passport. Instead of making any drama or not letting the dog in they called the borderzone veterinary who gave the pup the required pill after he told me that it will for sure not harm the pup to get the pill twice (it have got it already in Germany when it was 5 weeks old according to the breeder). Either way any myths about "bad, evil" customs got busted...;)

As for the little wolfie herself (yes I got a female instead of a male since the breeder chose the best pup she could choose for me and then it was a female called Miata (Miata Wakanda Tachunga)) it is absolutely awesome, it wasnt afraid at the airport (and there was really many people there) and it didnt looked scared, instead it was sniffing around on things very curious of the new enviroment then the car and finally my home where it will be living. So its indeed a good tempered pup as the breeder said :) Ahh and it looks totally awesome too, exactly like a wolfcub....people did actually think its a little wolf until I told them its a Saarloos (when waiting on the veterinary on the airport). And actually NO ONE not even a single person told me anything bad or wanted to harm the pup.....so I have been lucky and missed the whole army of "wolfhaters" that I was warned about, but instead met very many "wolf likers/passionates" and I hope it shall continue that way in Skien where I live.

I shall keep you informed about the success (I hope it will be and I will do everything possible to make it be) story of me and the Saarloos. And post some pictures soon in the picture section of the forum.

Have a nice week everyone!

I have now added the pictures of the little wolfie in my album, made just some minutes ago right now its sleeping on its pillow next to me :)

(I would edit my last post but somehow the edit button is gone)

Is it true that csw are still not allowed in norway? Today I telephoned with people who will move from germany to norway. They have a female csw and will probably get a male csw. They told me that they talked to the norway ambassy and they told them that csw are allowed in norway.

Is there some knowledge which is actual?

Thanks

Christian

PS: It is another thing to import a puppy than an adult csw who looks for people who do not really know easy like a wolf.

Unfortunately the csv is a banned breed in Norway. The embassy is wrong on that point. Here is the list of Norwegian banned dog breeds Please observe the last line of the article "Also dogs that are crossbreeds of dog and wolf are considered to be dangerous. "

Even a puppy will grow up, and if discovered the dog certainly will be put to death.
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Per Ollav