Saarloos Wolfdogs - Canadian or European Wolfdogs?

[Wolfsirius]

Margo:

It says at introduce of SWH that : "he selected a she-wolf ("Fleur" , a European wolf, that he bought from the zoological garden of Blijdorp in Rotterdam) as one of his ancestor parents for his breed and the german shepherd "Gerard van Fransenum" and that "Fleur" originated from the sibirian branch of the European wolf."

People always said that one difference between saarloos and CsV is wolves, European and Karpathian, (i know there is also lot more differences too)
and my thought was that Karpathian wolf is different than "european" how is it really?

-Suski

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

People always said that one difference between saarloos and CsV is wolves, European and Karpathian, (i know there is also lot more differences too)
and my thought was that Karpathian wolf is different than "european" how is it really?

Its only simlification. Of course, that exist more regional subspecies, which are different in some typical details. Sure its different wolf, which lives in eg. Spain and wolf from slopvakian mountains.
If you look to some literature, then you will found, that "european" or "carpatian" wolf are not really officially names. Its only regional definition of subspecies.
But through "canadian" and "european" wolf are same species, have after thousand years separatelly development and different livin conditions many specify and seriously differences. Then by SWH and CsW is the same.

[Wolfsirius]

There are many breeds which ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. Almost all spitzs: Huskies, Malamutes, Gronlandsdogs, a.s.o. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are unique - only CzW have blood of European Wolves which is visibible by them.

Thank you , Pavle. But, still mystery, Margo says:" ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound" but breed standard says other. Which we should believe, Margo, or standard?

Why i am asking so much by now, we have meeting next month where we should show out differences of CsV and SWH, and difference in history too....

-Suski

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

Thank you , Pavle. But, still mystery, Margo says:" ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound" but breed standard says other. Which we should believe, Margo, or standard?

Standard is sometimes text of good wishes.

But the truth is visible: Saarloos W. look different than European Wolves, they have different colours (there are no red, black or white European Wolves but this colous is typical for American Wolves). European Wolves have only brown, light amber or yellow eyes. CanadianW. can have also blue eyes. Also as said the ears are different. Simply said: typical Saarloos (and not CzW-Saarloos crosses) look exactly like Canadian or American Wolves.

And for the end text written by NEDERLANDSE VERENIGING VAN SAARLOOSWOLFHONDEN:
"Although trainability was not improved, this breed was recognized in 1975, six years after Leendert Saarloos's death. This rare Dutch breed is easier to train, more amenable to urban life, and more responsive than the Czech Wolfdog. This is probably due, in part, to its longer history of selective breeding, but also because the pack-oriented Canadian Timber Wolf, rather than the lone-hunting Carpathian Wolf, has been included in its genetic background. The Saarlooswolfhond can be used as a small game hunter. It is rarely seen outside the Netherlands. The Saarlooswolfhond club is almost completely unavailable outside of Holland. This is because the the club wants to better control the breeds breeding and limits the breed to a single 500 mile radius."

Sure nobody believes them that Saarloos is "amenable to urban life" that CzW But the part about Canadian Timber Wolf is true for sure.

And next text (by saarlooswolfhund.de):
"Saarloos' conception was a brown Europese Wolfhond!"
but later there is written:
"A neighbour of L. Saarloos had owned a black male Timberwolf, so that there is the supposition that this wolf also came to the breeding insert. Actually the current Saarloos wolfdogs see much more similar to American Timberwolf than the European wolf, that originated both "Fleurs" from . Also the good social behavior speaks in favour for the Timberwolf. But the NVSWH sais no incross of a Timberwolf..."

I'm sure NVSWH hides the true because even layman can see the Timber Wolves (Canadian WoOlves) are the true ancestors of Saarloos Wolfhound...

[Wolfsirius]

Ok, that i was thought too. But, see, what is written black and white, it's like a bible for some people;
"Because in standard and history of SWH says so"
for me is no big matter about text, i can daily see the difference of these breeds at home. of course, standard should be the biggest matter as breeding a dogs, but text written in internet or so, should not.

but thanks anyway, Margo.

* and what i just read..?: "Dutch breed is easier to train, more amenable to urban life, and more responsive than the Czech Wolfdog. " ????
OHHOH. Says owner of 3 SWH and 3 CsV, and will go out immediatelly test this written text by Dutch people...

-Suski

[Philippe]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

Which we should believe, Margo, or standard?

Hi, all,

The answer to this question is quite simple (!).

To avoid any misunderstanding, you need to contact Mrs Cornelia Keizer, who own all original notebooks written by Mr Saarloos, and ask for a copy of it! Then, there will be no more doubt!

Philippe

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

Which we should believe, Margo, or standard?

Why i am asking so much by now, we have meeting next month where we should show out differences of CsV and SWH, and difference in history too.... -Suski

Maybe you can also ask Marijke Saarloos (the daughter of Leendert Saarloos)

She has lots of info about the SWHbreed
Her whole life she did live with CsW's. And I think she has more experiences with these dogs then anyone else in this forum

(And for your info Corrie and Marijke are not members of the dutch NVSWH)

greetings,
mijke

[fenris]

I want to stress the fact that both CWD and SWH descends from european wolves. Pictures of the wolves excists and there is no doubt about it.

The difference between those two dog-breeds is partly caused by the very different shepherd-ancestors. CWD descends from short-legged and rather small shepherds of very active working-lines compared to the leggy and much older lines of shepherds behinds the SWH.

We should not forget this because todays SWH carries a valuable conformation from the earliest alsatians, while CWD carries valuable characteristics from the eastern working-lines. This is important information in the process of breeding and selecting and also in showing this two breeds.

fenris

[Huan]

Originally Posted by fenris

I want to stress the fact that both CWD and SWH descends from european wolves.

It's not a fact but only your assumption. Let's look at one of the characteristics of CWD and SWH: eyes.

German Shepherd - brown eyes
European Wolf - amber eyes
CWD - from brown to amber eyes
SWD - brown, amber and BLUE eyes

A miracle? Just a clarification: there are canadian wolves with blue eyes.

Let's look at different characteristic: the mask

CWD - sometimes without the mask but usually like by european wolves
SWD - the shape of the mask more similar to the one you can see by nordic breeds: malamutes or husky

Originally Posted by fenris

We should not forget this because todays SWH carries a valuable conformation from the earliest alsatians, while CWD carries valuable characteristics from the eastern working-lines. This is important information in the process of breeding and selecting and also in showing this two breeds.

And you want to say that in Holland there are blue eyes German shepherds? Then I have to admit the difference between Dutch and Czech GSD is anormous. I saw in Czech Republic no GSD with blue eyes.

[fenris]

Please give me an example of a blue eyed SWD (or a wolf), I have never seen one.
I am eager to learn - being curious.

[Huan]

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfPub.shtml:
"Most wolf pups are born with blue eyes, which gradually change to a yellow-gold color by eight to sixteen weeks, though sometimes their eyes can change color much later. Occasionally, a mature wolf will be found with blue eyes."

http://www.ksu.edu/biology/pob/genetics/:
"Wolves are sometimes observed to have black coats and blue eyes."

As for these quotes: it was published on US websites so we can assume that they speak about their local subspecies of wolves since there are no black european wolves nor did I find publications about wolves in Europe with blue eyes.

I didn't find any photo of SWD with blue eyes on Internet (there are not many photos at all on the net) but I saw already such in reality. However I wasn't interested about it. Next time I take a photo

[fenris]

According to wolf-biologist and the leading expert on wolf L. David Mech wolves have amber to yellow eyes that can shine yellowish-green. But NEVER blue.

Saarloos can have almond to yellow or even a grayish color of the eyes.

[Xhrista]

Originally Posted by Margo

But the truth is visible: Saarloos W. look different than European Wolves, they have different colours (there are no red, black or white European Wolves but this colous is typical for American Wolves). European Wolves have only brown, light amber or yellow eyes. CanadianW. can have also blue eyes. Also as said the ears are different. Simply said: typical Saarloos (and not CzW-Saarloos crosses) look exactly like Canadian or American Wolves.

There are white German Sheperds and thats the other part of the Saarloos.Where the Brown colour comes from,I don't know.
The only color that a Saarloos eye may have is yellow,only when the dogs is older than he is more amber.When they have brown eyes it's a defect.Everybody knows that there are people that do wrong things,with Saarloos and CZW.
2 of my dogs are standing on pictures with CzW's and from a distance you see no difference in colours.

I don't know where you have taken the translation from the de Dutch Breeding club,but I never heard anyone saying in holland that the SWH is better to train as a CzW.The SWH is not a working dog like the CzW.
The SWh is a calm dog,who is very social with dogs and people.

I heard a lot of things here on this page,what doesn't conform to the SWh,I think there are more cross breedings outside Holland as we ever thaucht.

Thake a look at the pages and see old wolfdogs from the Saarloos time end the other page with new foto's.Some of the dogs look not 100% standaard,but most of them have Yellow eyes

http://www.saarlooswolfhonden.nl/
http://www.clubs.nl/community/default.asp?clubid=41096
http://www.clubs.nl/community/default.asp?clubid=44239

Gr. Christa

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

How many Saarloos are there in the Netherlands and all over the world?

Gr. Ina

[Xhrista]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

How many Saarloos are there in the Netherlands and all over the world?

Gr. Ina

Difficult to say,because everybody knows,that the co-operation between the breedingclubs is not good.
There are 2 populations.The one from the dutch breed club and outside.
most of the dogs outsite the Netherlands comes from dutch breeders.
Only the last 4 years there are more breeders outside netherland.
Corrie Keizer is also a dutch breeder.

But if you take a good look to the old pictures(that are all Kilstroom dogs)than you see that a lot of dogs of this time don't even look like the pictures.And the breedingstandaard is made 30 years ago,so thats how the SWH must like,I think???

Gr. Christa

[Wolfsirius]

Hei, Ina! I get this kind of Info, as i asked same thing:

in Gemany there are over 100 . in Swiss there are ca. 20, france there are over 100, in Belgium there are 100 and in NL 500-600 and then a few dogs in another lands , in Finland momentally 11

Suski

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

Hei, Ina! I get this kind of Info, as i asked same thing:

in Gemany there are over 100 . in Swiss there are ca. 20, france there are over 100, in Belgium there are 100 and in NL 500-600 and then a few dogs in another lands , in Finland momentally 11

Suski

Thank you,

one year ago a breeder told me there are even less but he didn´t know exact counts eather. That means there are not more than 1000 dogs worldwide, that breed in at least 2 clubs that don´t talk to each other and don´t exchange dogs as far as I am informed. I don´t think the red ones are crossbreeds and I didn´t see a blue eyed one but I think it´s possible they occure now and then because that´s absolutely normal in such small populations. I know some crossbreeds with Czechoslow. Wolfdogs, these are not the red ones and to be honest I think without them the breed will die out but that is not my concern. But I don´t know if there have been any other crossbreeds with other breeds.


Ina

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by fenris

According to wolf-biologist and the leading expert on wolf L. David Mech wolves have amber to yellow eyes that can shine yellowish-green. But NEVER blue..

Some time ago I visited some US sites related to wolves and wolf behaviour.
As far as I remember some of the sites showed wolves/wolf dogs with blue eyes.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by perolav

Some time ago I visited some US sites related to wolves and wolf behaviour.
As far as I remember some of the sites showed wolves/wolf dogs with blue eyes.

Absolutely agree. I buy every year a calendar with wolves pictures and every year is there some with blue eyes as well.

[Xhrista]

Wolfdogs can have bleu eyes,what do think of a mix with an Husky?
There are also Indian dogs with bleu eyes.

Gr. Christa