Height and weight

[WolfmanUSA]

Thanks for all of the insight . I appologize that it took so long for me to respond. Another question I have is; how large do CZW become? I am having trouble converting the measurements that I've seen to pounds and inches.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by WolfmanUSA

Another question I have is; how large do CZW become?

Males - average: 68-69 cm and 40-45 kg
Females - average: 64-65 cm and 30 kg.

[WolfmanUSA]

So, does 69 cm and 45 kg translate to 26.5 in. and 99 lbs. or something close to that? Again, I am trying to translate the measurements into inches and pounds.

Thanks again for all of the replies!

[z Peronówki]

Males - average: 26.8-27.2 in. and 88.2-99 lbs.
Females - average: 25.2-25.6 in. and 66 lbs.

[massimo]

Hi all.
there is an interesting 3d on italian forum for which maybe it could be nice to read from "non italian" owners experts.
It's about the height of dogs.
In brief: there is no maximium height for CSW.
-Was there a maximum in the past (it seems from some replies No)
-Shouldn't there be a limit in order to avoid getting "camel"-like dogs?

Some people a replying that the important thing is to respect proportions indicated in standard (height 55%, length 105% etc), without limitations of height.
Others (I am amongst them) say that the basic thing to respect is that a dog should look harmonic, elegant, but at the same time strong.
This shouldn't be limited in height because you can get such dog (for males) at 64cm just as at 73cm.
why is maybe the "best hight" in between these values(68 for example)? maybe because it's easier to maintain proportions on an average hight dog without the risk of having a heavy head with loose lip and big chest (too high) or having short legs and weak bones (too short).

-Further question: if you manage to find a strong, tall, well proportioned, with a light movement male of 72cm, would you rather use him in breeding or a 65cm very light male with a wonderful looking wolfish head although not so elegant?
OR would you simply use them both in the same way according to the "right" female?

What do you think??

massimo

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
it is too long answer for my bad english ) . So, I write you my personal meaning.
65,5cm high dog is good. 73cm high harmonic dog is good too. Is not different in using them for females. But: how much people want puppies from 65,5cm high dog? More people want puppies from higher dogs. For 64cm high females are good both males 66cm and 73cm high too.
So, high is not important.
But I want know more opinions from other breeders.

[massimo]

But I'm also interested to know from you and others if it is "less" advisable to allow the average hight of CSW increase or not.
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.
I suppose we both have a "similar" preferance, considering the males we own...


But I'm curious to know what others think, czechs AND slovaks too....
Massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by massimo

But I'm also interested to know from you and others if it is "less" advisable to allow the average hight of CSW increase or not.
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.

The breed standart says in short terms that the CSW should look like a European wolf. A male European wolf can have a high of over 70 cm. So for me it is elegant/powerful/wolfish.
I don´t mind if a male is small or tall as long as he is of that type. I don´t have to be afraid that the puppies will be too small because I know that even my smallest bitch allways has puppies of good height. Therefor I only look for a male that fits my female. And I wouldn´t take a male with too short legs, that is too heavy build, with an untypical head, untypical movements, a bad back line or a bad character.
The experience in other breeds show that you get problems if you breed for very tall dogs or heavy dogs. I think we don´t need to have a heightlimit as long as we don´t prefer dogs just because they are tall and nothing else.

Ina

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
you write two posiibility:
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
But no exist theese two possibilty, only. I know much combination of this . Smaller can be elegant and compact can be powerfull
Of course, nobody prefer high, heavy dogs. But high elegant dog with beautifull movement......
And my opinions are: from normal high dogs 62 and 68 cm parents can be very small puppies. It is nature.
In the Italy is breeding very easy. You have only one stanpoint: beauty. You can choose parents only from beauty or high (?).Where is character of working breed? Where is health? And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really? I think, in some kennels-NO. A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation. It is bigger problem than high. Sorry, it is simplificatied view from Czech to Italin . Yes, you have much beautiful dogs, but without breed value for BREEDING.Not for "breeding". Because we need for breeding dogs with RTG results, with bonitations, not only products from some "wolfdogs". How much breeders openly tell about it in Italy?
Oh Massimo, I see I don´t write about high ) Sorry.
Yes, high, elegant wolfdog with very good and strong character and with longer coat and HIP Dysplasia free - it is my ideal. I want have full garden of theese wolfdogs. But it is dream, only.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by massimo

Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.

For me is not only the exterior important
A stable dog with a good and strong character is for me also very importent! (unfortunaly there are also frightened and scary CsW's in some country's)

When I am looking for stud dogs, yes I first look for exterior of a male that fits with my female
And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient

I also visit several males (long time before a female is in heat )to get an impression how they are and what their character is.

So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by mijke

When I am looking for stud dogs, yes I first look for exterior of a male that fits with my female
And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient

I also visit several males (long time before a female is in heat )to get an impression how they are and what their character is.

So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

We mostly do the same. What I really care about too is the HDresults of the dogs offspring if there already is some, not only his own results.

Ina

[massimo]

Originally Posted by mijke

For me is not only the exterior important
When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient
So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

Hi mijke,
thanks for your comments but maybe I wasn't clear enough and brought you slightly out of thread.
I didn't ask "what do you look for as most important in a CSW".
I personally have a special feeling for a male I know personally which is maybe the most wolfish CSW around...BUT because of his character i wouldn't ever want one of his sons...
For me health and Character are MORE important that looks, no doubt.
I was concentrating on "large/tall" or "small/short".
However you mentioned something for me very important:

And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

LIGHT MOVING
isn't it so difficult to find "large" csw but LIGHT MOVING??
Perfect proportions allow a dog to have light movement, just like wolves. If you ever saw wolves in real life or on documentaries, they seem to float on the ground, swiftly and magically, and prey can't even detect them from very near.
A dog with a large chest or too long body looks clumsy when he walks and is far away from being elegant...
massimo

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

And my opinions are: from normal high dogs 62 and 68 cm parents can be very small puppies. It is nature.
In the Italy is breeding very easy. You have only one stanpoint: beauty. You can choose parents only from beauty or high (?).Where is character of working breed? Where is health? And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really? I think, in some kennels-NO. A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation. It is bigger problem than high. Sorry, it is simplificatied view from Czech to Italin . Yes, you have much beautiful dogs, but without breed value for BREEDING.Not for "breeding". Because we need for breeding dogs with RTG results, with bonitations, not only products from some "wolfdogs". How much breeders openly tell about it in Italy?

First of all Hanka I really thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
it's not so common for a person like you to write so openly and freely on internet.
In Italian forum, in those "rare" cases when people are not fighting like "chicken"... ....sometimes some threads are interesting and we have the luck to read comments from interesting/experienced breeders like Sarka Matrasova (ariminnum) or Andrea Pecharova (Foresta Incantata).
However the argument you mention, although not really on thread, is really interesting and deserves a small comment.
I am new in the wolfdog world and surely have less experience than you , but i'm lucky to live in the country with the most number of wolfdogs and I see so many of them in shows, meetings, training camps, bonitations etc.
I agree with you that in Italy there is no limit, no power from breeding committe as in Cz or Sk and therefore some dogs which should NEVER mate do it and nobody can stop owners from making puppies.
I personally would really like it if it was compulsary to make bonitation, I even would never give a dog a pedigree if he doesn't have bonitation/morphological selection.
But I wouldn't say A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation.
The first bonitation made in italy was in 2003 and our club has become officialy recognised only since 2 and a half years
Since then a lot of improvement has been made in italy, already 6 bonitations have been made.
Of course it is not controlled and we still have breeders mating brothers and sisters regardless of the side effects, but a lot of information is running and the "most important" breeders are ever more pushing in the right direction.
I do not agree with you when you say in italy most breeders look at beauty disregarding health and character.
It is really difficult or almost impossible to find a breeder which mates wolfdogs with HDC in Italy. The most used studs are generally all bonitated.
Characters are improving really a lot and I rarely see in shows dogs with tails under their stomach.
Our club is starting to organize training meetings and exams.
We are still not at the CZ level of course but improvement is visible.
It's true, a breeding comittee allows a certain level of control, but the possibility however to mate "wrong" dogs always exists!
It mainly depends on the consciousness of the breeder...but it also can happen in CZ or in SK!
If the owner of a dog measures his own csw during bonitation and "casually" it is just 0,5cm above minimum....
A very colleric or shy dog can be "trained" to pass bonitation....hoping in those 2-3 minutes of "apparent" calmness...
A dog with more than one displasic brother or sisters and with "doubtful" xrays can be allowed to mate....
I've personally seen more than one bonitation in CZ and SK, and the character test in one occasion was COMPLETELY different from the other in terms of power put by the figurante...
Another thing that surprises me is that owners of males from CZ or SK, with such strict breeding rules, but allow their dog to cover bitches in different countries without bonitation...isn't that a nonsense?

And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really?

This can happen everyware there are unhonest people...Luckily there is the possibility to do the Paternity Test!!!

massimo

[Nebulosa]

Hi at all!
Massimo, what I see, the Italians breeders is flowers if you compare with the french breeders, that more seems a childrens fight for saw who have the best toy, you can see some kid atitudes comes from french breeders in relaction at others breeders of the same countrie, if you read the french forum will see till breeders say that will "broken the face" of the other breeder, this is alone one little exemple for show the point that have arrive.
Still in the french you can see one breeder say that make one improvement of the breed in the country breeding females that arrive at 72cm high. the problem is that this breeders forgoth the wolfish appearence and have make Tervuerens with the CzW pedigree.

I think that not have moctive for breeding for up the high of the breed, why move in winner team!?

Your cannot forgoth that CzWs aren't Borzois , they are working "enduraced" dogs, up the high of the breed in my opinion is alone for have more problems with the displasy and others problems, one much high dog at little will lost the agility, and this alone will open the eyes for "breeders" that alone see the appearence.

About the stud dogs of the origine country that mating eith out-country females non-bonitated, I tink that this will depend on what country and what breeder you talk, still not exist one country with the excuse for have dogs non bonitated used in the breeding because all is in the europe, at my view point, isn't longer for the breeders come one time per year in the origine country bonitate the breeding dogs and pupies, and other, they go for the origine country for buy pupies, isn't different the way for comes and bonitate the dog, why they not make this? fear the result of one super-show-winner receive a P14 in bonitation because of the temperamento non-sociabilizated??
I tink that this can be one trying for help to improve the breed in out-countries well, I know that I dream so much .

Well, is my opinion, I alone saw ( better, reading) all this from far

Paula

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo, I love you , we must speak together in the future
Yes, good breeding is not easy, is somebody want do it GOOD.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello Massimo, I love you , we must speak together in the future
Yes, good breeding is not easy, is somebody want do it GOOD.

then love is returned surely!!
and in particular I like czech women!

Ok, here is an official and public appointment: when MONA/ALI puppies are ready we can go and get OUR superpuppies at the same time.
What do you think?
as you see, I appreciate good breeding so much that...I look for quality!
massimo

[fenris]

This discussion points out that breeding for dog-shows and show-titles is more or less a detriment for a breed. The requirements for breeding in the countries of origin of this breed (bonitations and functional testing) are very important factors for the development of a healthy, functional and harmonious dog.
But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier. A similar tendency is seen among Saarlooswolfdogs.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by fenris

This discussion points out that breeding for dog-shows and show-titles is more or less a detriment for a breed. The requirements for breeding in the countries of origin of this breed (bonitations and functional testing) are very important factors for the development of a healthy, functional and harmonious dog.
But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier. A similar tendency is seen among Saarlooswolfdogs.

This i like a lot!!
thanks fenris.
but...i've seen around in cz and italy and haven't noticed a reduction in size at all, on the contrary, people are asking themselves if there aren't a bit too many "larger" dogs.
in sk maybe there is a tendency to reduction? maybe.
Maybe it's due to the very small number of csw?
or maybe that not many studs from abroad with different blood are being used?? could be a good argument for discussion (no polemics please, just plain minded thoughts)

it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding

isn't that scientifically proven?
massimo

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
Mona must have I think 10puppies, all want puppies from this litter
About date of pick up: I will see, we can write about it later.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Was there a maximum in the past (it seems from some replies No)

I heard that historical there was maximum size for CLT: 70 cm for male and 65 cm for female before. I heard that F. Rosik from Slovakia told about one of the Italian males (during a dog show in Nitra) that the male is too BIG (maybe it was because the male was looking so DIFFERENT from other dogs in the youth class - light coloured, very long, with different body build). And even now many breeders in origin countries are ashamed if their females are bigger then 65cm. The reasons is: there MUST be VISIBLE difference between female and male. Huge females get very often worser notes and text "too masculine".

Originally Posted by massimo

-Shouldn't there be a limit in order to avoid getting "camel"-like dogs?

But there IS the maximum written in the breed standard. It is hidden in the 'cynological' speak but it is there... Look in the "GENERAL APPEARANCE:". You can find there words "Above average size". No words about "LARGE size". Average size are breeds where males have max 65cm. Most of the breeds which are described as "large size"" start already at 70 cm... By CzW there is written "above average size" (no words like "a medium to large size" which would mean that big dogs are also 'welcome'). So according to the standard Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs should be 65-70cm... "Camels" are not "typical" CzW...

The same info you can find in the bonitation card. Look on the codes for sizes:
An - height under 65 cm for males and 60 cm for females
As - 65-70cm for males and 60-65 cm for females
Av - over 70cm for males and 65 cm for females

What mean the abbreviations? 'n' = "nízký", means low/small. 's' = střední, means middle, and 'v' = vysoký, means large/high.
And it means that a male of 68 cm has AVERAGE (MIDDLE) size. And female of 68cm is not typical but LARGE. The same with males over 70cm....



Even the wolves are not so HUGE. I know many people look on the Canadian and American Wolves in the movies or TV (and their height of even 90cm) but CLT should look like EUROPEAN Wolves which are red coloured and not so big. Here you have some examples:
** adult wolf and adult CLT (69) - as you can see the wolf is smaller
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic23381.html
*** here you see other adult (and pretty large) european wolves and adult CLT male (70cm) - as you can see the CLT is much higher as the wolves
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic27961.html
This photos were taken in Czech Republic but we have similar photos with European Wolves from Poland, Slovakian and Hungary... And it is really not true that wolves are huge...

European Wolves have about 70cm (males). The average size of adult CzW is about 67,54. So you can see the difference is only about 2.5 cm... But more important is the weight - the European Wolves have 70 cm but weight about 41kg (females about 32kg). It is MUCH less than by most CzW where you can see 67 cm high CzW with 65 kg... Simply said - many CzWs are TOO fat (too heavy) -> NO MORE TYPICAL, NO MORE WOLFISH. Expecially when you look on the large CzW (over 70cm) you will see that most of them look more like South Asian Ovtscharkas than Wolves... And it is the main problem... I know breeders of large dogs say their dog move light, that wolves are also large and, and, and... They are simple totally sure only their Wolfdogs are right. But when you look on their dogs you ask yourself - HE? THIS LARGE SHEPHERD IS CALLED A WOLFDOG?

I'm not a big friend of CzW which are on the minimum size... A nice wolfish male with 68, 69 or 70cm looks ALWAYS better than nice wolfish male with 65 cm... But I know the reality and it is almost not possible to find "nice wolfish male" which is over 70 cm... So it is the reason why I use for my females dogs of average size but TYPICAL... I will never use a male only because the male is BIG. The size is for me one of the last things which count for me when I'm choosing a stud dog...

Originally Posted by massimo

why is maybe the "best hight" in between these values(68 for example)? maybe because it's easier to maintain proportions on an average hight dog without the risk of having a heavy head with loose lip and big chest (too high) or having short legs and weak bones (too short).

Yes - it is the most common reason.... 99.999% of the "wolfish" CzWs are not higher than 70 cm Why? Because in the most cases when you look in the pedigrees of the HUGE CzWs you will see that not the genes of a Wolf but the genes of a German Shepherd Dogs are responsible for such huge size.... The biggest and heaviest CzW have a lot of GSD blood in their veins - comming mainly from the last crossing (Kazan z PS and his offspring which were not Wolfdogs but HUGE BLACK GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS) - it is the reason why you can meet heaviest and largest CzW almost only in Czech Republic by the "old lines".

Originally Posted by massimo

if you manage to find a strong, tall, well proportioned, with a light movement male of 72cm, would you rather use him in breeding or a 65cm very light male with a wonderful looking wolfish head although not so elegant?
OR would you simply use them both in the same way according to the "right" female?

What do you mean with "light movement"? Even bulldogs can move "light" - compared to other dogs of their breed... But there is other problem - you wrote about italian forum and it fits very well because I saw some large dogs from Italy which are at the same time VERY long (with the index of format much higher than 111). Such dogs move LIGHT but not like WOLFDOGS. I know some breeders like to breed so long dogs because the judges (all-rounders) like such movement (long trot) but it is not the typical CzW movement described in the breed standard.
The second problem is visibiel not only in Italy but also in other countries - many owners of large dog say "my dog is huge but moves light" but it is also not what we mean with "harmonious, light footed, ground covering trot". Why? Because their dogs are build like GSD - have large and broad chests, strong angulation of the legs, longer bodies. Such dogs also seem to move "light" but like light "old German Shepherd Dogs"...

Simply said - in the most cases when the owners of large CzWs say their Wolfdogs move "light" the dogs really have light movement but not light movement of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.... In Poland we have even Wolfdogs which look like perfect GSDs (the only difference is they have white mask and are not black but also their owners will even swear also their dogs move light... So I never believe whan someone says a CzW moves light until I have not seen this dog with my own eyes...

...BUT...

if we really have the case that I must choose between large, well proportioned CzW with light movement and a not so elegant male with wolfish head I will take the first one. Why? Because the head can be changed pretty fast with the right selection. But it is VERY hard to "repair" wrong proportions and unharmonious body build...you need GENERATIONS to make it right....

Originally Posted by massimo

Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?

First problem is - many breeders make mistake and are not able to distinguish between HEAVY Wolfdogs and WELL BONED Wolfdogs... So a "wolfish" CzW can be at the same time also "powerful". "Small" can be also "elegant" (as I already wrote in the most cases wolfdog of the average size are more elegant than the tall ). So the breeders should breed Wolfdogs which are:
compact/elegant/wolfish/powerful...

Originally Posted by fenris

Still in the french you can see one breeder say that make one improvement of the breed in the country breeding females that arrive at 72cm high.

"Improvement"???? Sorry, but I know breeders which were hidding the information that their females are higher that 65cm... Because it is nothing to be proud of it...
Our friends have female which ist ("only" ) 67.5 and they heard already more times that an expert judge said "Sorry, but male were already judged"... Or - "who are the parents of this male..."
Sure - there are also females which are 62 cm and look "heavy" and masculine like CzW males. But there are almost no large females which still look typical and feminine... And I still writing about females with the size 67-68 and not 72(!)cm....

Originally Posted by fenris

But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier.

I would also not say it - the Wolfdogs are not getting smaller but bigger. And there is HUGE difference when you compare the look of the Wolfdogs bred 10 years ago and now - in the most cases "new" CzW are much more "wolfish". But the judges do not preffer small dogs but too large (I mean heavy) - they really do not look how typical a dog is. The judge according the rule: "the heavier the better".

=================

But back to the main topic: there are much more important reasons why people do not want to breed very huge CLT:

1) I would say about 99% of the CLT males which are bigger than 70 cm do not have the typical body and look. In the most cases such CLTs are too heavy and look more like huge GSD or Molosses and are no more 'wolfish'...

2) Huge (-> heavy) dogs have much often problem with the hips - with HD and even ED

3) Huge dogs are no more resilient and are not able to run long distances (which is one of the most typical features of this breed)... We saw that in the most cases large CLT have even problems to run 20 km. And are not able to pass 40km runs...

4) The best working CLT are of average size. Large dogs are too heavy and too lazy to get any better results in training. You will see that the best working males (with the most passed exams) are: 68, 67, 68, 68, 68, 67 cm. And females: 61.5, 64, 64, 63, 61, 64, 62.5 cm. As you can see all of them are of average or small size. The only big dog with nice exams is Hero od Uhoste but he is also very slim and typical looking (not one of the Moloss type CLT). I know of course two CLTs with many exams - one is 71cm and second 70.5 but the owners stopped to make exams with them because they were so heavy so they get HUGE problems with their hips and it was not possible to work with them anymore...

So it is the reason why none of the important breeders has as goal to breed huge dogs... They care for the typical wolfish look, for the right character, for the right indexes. But not for the size... The only important thing is: the CLT should not be too small. If a dog is over the 70 cm it is not a problem but ONLY if the dog is typical...