Mixes: Passo del lupo (Italy)

[Martab]

Dear Admin,
I just saw that my dog is marked with this "bottom like" symbol: (_ ! _ ):

http://www.wolfdog.org/site/it/dbase/d/11223#

Now, I understand that you do what you want with database, that you have problems with many Italian and foreign breeders, BUT
- my dog's mother is Iska Passo del Lupo (Miky x Fendy), which is not (_ ! _) as many other non (_ ! _ ) sons/daughters;
- my dog's dad is Will ( Upstream x Grey Wolf), which is not (_ ! _) as many other non (_ ! _) sons/daughters;
- my dog is an Italian Champion and therefore must have DNA test (Vetogene, official ENCI authorized laboratory):


I always sent to database all information about my dog, included DM results, FCI Dysplasia Certificates, Working Titles and championships documentation, litters information (never uploaded), Young and adult Bonitance results (never uploaded)....I believe that he is one of the most "controlled" and "tested" dogs with official results existing!

Moreover: Miky, Fendy, Grey Wolf and Upstream are in many other Italian and foreign Czechislovakian Wolfdogs pedigrees....if my dog is (_ ! _) I believe most of the breed is (_ ! _)!
Mine is only an example, but I see that many other pure breed dogs have this symbol ...please provide us with explanation, which cannot be different from: "sorry, mistake...."
I really hope so because if not it's all becoming ridiculous....

[Martab]

Originally Posted by Rona

Should owners of such marked dogs imposed pressure on the "suspicious" breeders and made them test the parents of the litters in question, the problem would probably be very quickly sorted out and the marks would hopefully disapear...

It could be an explanation, but it's not: in my case both parents of my dog, above, are Italian Champion and have both been tested, DNA is deposited (Iin ENCI database online both result tested with DNA deposited)...also most of grandfathers and grandmothers have DNA deposited.... but my dog is still (_!_) "bottom marked"!

There must be a mistake, this is the only answer possible

[Priska182]

Marta, Rona can be right, because all offspring from Will breed under Passo Del Lupo's Kennel are tag as (_!_) And it's the same for all offspring from Iska
But Even if the kennel is proved to have make mix with Saarloos I don't think it's really fair to tag all dogs from this kennel with the (_!_). Because everyone who will look at this dog will think that there is a bad thing with the tag dog
+ a "CzW-like mixes breeder" tag already exist for this same purpose...

You have all my support Marta

[yossifayer]

Non capisco niente!! Cani che avevano la scritta mix due settimane fa e - non per riproduzione - ora sono (_? _) senza la scritta mix
il mio cane e` segnato con (_! _) ma i suoi genitori e nonni non hanno questo simbolo (_! _). Io sono genetista e questo non e 'geneticamente corretto ne possibile!
Ora abbiamo la certezza che l`amministratore di wolfdog e` veramente professionale, ...complimenti!!!

I do not understand anything!!!!!! Dogs that had the words mix two weeks ago and - not for breeding - now are (_? _) without the written mix - not for breeding. `
my dog has (_! _) but his parents and grandparents without this symbol(_!_).
I am genetist and this is not 'genetically correct and possible!
Now i sure that the wolf dog administrator is very professional!!!!!

[Martab]

Admin, if you had time, in the last 10 days, for putting this "ass symbol" (_!_) on all the lines you wanted in the database, I think you can find 5 minutes for answering to all these people asking for an explanation, specially considered that they are the same people who helped you in updating the database.
You must have had a reason for doing it: share it with us because as you can easily understand having the dog "NO MORE suitable for breeding", without any logical reason, is defamatory

[leila]

as I can understand it, the admin put all this symbols to dogs, who come from breedings from mix-kennels, where are not standard pupps born - you can see the mixes in them and also theire parents... all crying wolf pupps born after 2004 are there and some french kennels... the reason is because of the "red" pupps", because of some tests, realy not csw standard look (i mean not with falust, but the "other wolf" look)... its because of the reason to stop inserting mixes into pure breed.
im sorry for all of the owners, who have such dogs and it ruins theire breeding. but on the other hand, I can understand, that this is a way (radical way), to show all the mixes... but I must write also, that this is showing on someone without any proof (in some cases)... I wish, all the breeders, who breed such dogs, made some tests (i mean the crying wolf, de la louve blanche,...) so there are no doupts anymore. the cooperation with breeders is the way... if they are pure, as they say, there is no problem (or should not be) to make some tests... and it will clear everything... just a test. if the costs are problem, I would say only one - you get so much money for selling such "pure and wolfy" pupps, that this price of test is nothing.

[Martab]

thank you Ieila, but my dog and both the parents of my dog DO have DNA test deposited. This means that the test is useless, because my dog is nevertheless marked as (_!_), and that there is NO WAY of erasing it

[leila]

now I understand you, ou are right. but you know, this is a private server... the admin can do, what he wants. but if the dogs have tests, then he should realy get of the symbol.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by leila

this is showing on someone without any proof (in some cases)....

I agree, this is a problem...

However, nobody seems to have even a trace of idea how to obtain the proofs. If the dogs are under their owners' custody all the time, the latter refuse to test them, giggle right into the faces of all who care about the breed, and cynically repeat "proofs, please, proofs", what can be done?!

Maybe somebody knows how to obtain the key dogs' blood against their owners' will, and collect the proofs? Employ a veterinary mafia? Hire kynological detectives? Or better... vet-burglers () who will break into the kennels and steal the dogs for half an hour Maybe Admin should hire MI5 or beg UFO for help? Anybody has more realistic suggestions?

Alternative solution is to do nothing and wait long enough for all the dogs whose blood could help solve the problem pass away.

It's not against you, Martab; but without cooperation, solidarity, join efforts of all caring, affected and non-affected owners and breeders the problem will never be solved. If people keep repeating "why me, my dogs are OK, I have nothing to do with it" very soon there will hardly be any pure vlcaks. In this case waiting is like waiting for Godot!

Instead of moaning and accusing the Admin, Margo or Santa Claus, or whoever of whatever I suggest all owners and breeders should start acting immediately to sort the mess out asap.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

Instead of moaning and accusing the Admin, Margo or Santa Claus, or whoever of whatever I suggest all owners and breeders should start acting immediately to sort the mess out asap.

Exactly, the owners should contact their breeders and ask them to check the dogs instead of attacking people, who just try to save the breed from mixes...

[Martab]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Exactly, the owners should contact their breeders and ask them to check the dogs instead of attacking people, who just try to save the breed from mixes...

I insist: this is not the solution, because MY DOG HAS THE DNA TEST, HIS PARENTS HAVE DNA TEST, AND HE IS STILL (_!_)

[Martab]

Originally Posted by leila

this is a private server... the admin can do, what he wants

You are right, I know it is like this.
But then I -as a "private person" - feel free to start any legal action I wish to carry out against what I assume to be a defamation through a public web site
But given that I'd prefer to spend my money and my time otherwise....I insist for the Admin to answer and correct wrong data

This is not a jungle, and Admin is not The King Of The Breed... it should be a space where people share information according to rules which must be (I don't expect..."agreed together in harmony", but at least) predictable and understandable!

PS: Leila I quoted you but I understood we are saying the same thing, I repeated it only because admin instead of answering mixed several posts from different TDs

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Martab

thank you Ieila, but my dog and both the parents of my dog DO have DNA test deposited. This means that the test is useless, because my dog is nevertheless marked as (_!_), and that there is NO WAY of erasing it

No one knows yet what does mean the symbols (_!_) and (_?_), if your dog have DNA test also as its parents, till the imported dogs from SK and CZ, then, probably the symbol (_!_) does not mean that he is a possible mix, but that he comes from a breeder who breed and agree with mixes (??).
We can assume then that the (_?_) are dogs without DNA test coming from suspicious kennels - so, the mixes till it be proved the contrary by DNA test.

[Martab]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

No one knows yet what does mean the symbols (_!_) and (_?_)

Someone did put it according to some criteria! And this someone (the Admin, I imagine) must explain it..it's absurd that we are here trying to interpret a thing that isn't a bug in the database, but the result of someone's decision...
As for the kennel, my dog already had written that came from "Passo del Lupo horrible breeder non FCI mis sarlosish creatures.....etc etc", but here is very different, the single dog is indicated ad "not suitable for breeding", and there must be a reason which is different from the breeder, also beacuse other Passo Del Lupo Crying Wolf etc....are not (_!_) even though they come from the same breeder

[Nebulosa]

Someone did put it, and for sure it was Admin because he is the only one who have acess to the database, when something new is added to the database, Admin post in a hidden forum what does it mean and ask all moderators to translate it to their own languages and add it in each forum.
It didn't happen yet what make us think that Admin was having problems enough and have had no time to post it at the moment.
Also there is the possibility of the informations be wrong, as there was an server crash not long ago which messed up with several informations.
I was searching for more dogs with the symbol (_!_) and I found Fallko Kollarov dvor with this mark, i'm quite sure he isn't a mix, then we really need to wait Admin explain what does it mean.


PS: Out of my fertile imagination, for me this (_!_) will be ever a butt!

[Martab]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

PS: Out of my fertile imagination, for me this (_!_) will be ever a butt!

that's it!

[Martab]

Margo, you know why my dog is (_!_)?

[Martab]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

PS. About the '!' and '?' you must ask the people who are responsible for it. I asked some time ago and there is still no answer...

Do anyone know who is responsible for it?
Margo didn't you (or Paula or I don't know who) transfer the web site to someone? Which is the name of this someone?

Gosh, it's more difficult to have the name of this person than to find who's behind a Switzerland trust company!

[Rona]

Admin, why don't you change the "-!-" into "- -"
Let's see what happens then

I really don't understand why people are reacting so badly! Especially those who hate wolfdog.org so much! Does the sign make your dog different? Less beautiful or less obedient? If you know what animal you have at home, why be bothered by any silly marks?

If this could help the breed, I'd welcome as many signs at my dogs name as possible.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by loco

I thought the rule is still true, that one is not guilty until proven guilty.
But, correct me if I'm wrong.

1. That's why if Paula, Margo or whoever is guilty of being Admin, the person who blames them should prove it. Or may be you are for double standards?

2. http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=15
Any constructive propositions as to how to obtain the proofs?

BTW where did you find information that the mark means the dog or a breeder is guilty of anything?

In my understanding it only marks kennels that refuse to cooperate towards clearing the mess connected with mixbreeding...