Wolf Dog Education

[bvortec]

http://texx-wolf-tails.webs.com/wolfdogscomparison.htm

Some dogs I seen here are Husky, Shephard, or Malamute mix.
Read about Wolf Dogs the real thing on the site I posted.

[Nebulosa]

Perhaps would be a good idea you read a bit the forum before post.
It's a webpage about czechoslovakian wolfdogs, a DOG breed officialy recognized by FCI, well.. with nothing of Husky or Malamute.

[GalomyOak]

http://www.akc.org/breeds/czechoslov...og/history.cfm

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/B...ovakianWolfdog

[yukidomari]

Besides the fact that CsVs are a breed of dog that don't have Husky or Malamute ancestry, wouldn't ANY "wolfdog" be a mix of some wolf and some dog?

[draggar]

Having met with the FLA (Florida Lupine Association) there is a TON of misinformation out there in regards to wolf-hybrids, wolfdogs, and (in an extended sense) vlcaks and saarloos.

For those of us in the USA since we only have a handful of vlcak owners (and I think no saarloos?) it may not be a bad idea to reach out to wolf-hybrid / wolfdog clubs to work with them (about temperament, living with them, etc..). After meeting with the FLA we think Luna and Pollux are far more wolfier than we did think before (many of their traits we though were just annoying puppy traits but many turn out to be wolf-traits).

Some of the wolf-hybrids at the club were about 50% (some were first generation hybrids) and they are VERY wolfy in temperament (skittish, alert, etc..).
As for the article I have to disagree with a lot of it and a lot of it seems to be assumptions. The average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf? That would make them a low content according to the article and should look and act like a GSD. I'll let the author live with Pollux for a few days and they'll quickly rewrite the article. I think the wolf genetics are dominant so even lower content hybrids will show a lot of the wolfy characteristics.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

That would make them a low content according to the article and should look and act like a GSD. I'll let the author live with Pollux for a few days and they'll quickly rewrite the article.

Sorry, but if a vlcak behaves like a wolf it only means that the breeder made bad selection/breeding decisions and/or neglected early socialisation of the pup. Alternatively it could mean that the owner did not socialize/train the pup correctly. A vlcak should be a vlcak not a wolf or a wolf-hybrid.
Unfortunately, some breeders select towards appearance only, ignoring character, early socialisation, owner selection, etc. and some naive buyers buy such animals without proper kennel research, knowledge about the breed, experience etc. Later such people write naive articles or claim that

Originally Posted by draggar

wolf genetics are dominant so even lower content hybrids will show a lot of the wolfy characteristics.

Draggar, how many vlcaks have you raised until their full maturity to make such claims! How many vlcaks have you seen working, participating in shows, camps and trainings to have the right to state that

Originally Posted by draggar

average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf?

Why do you extrapolate your limited personal experience to the whole breed? CSV is not a 30% wolf! It's a dog.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

The average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf?

By pure mathematical calculation, which means not much at all:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8749
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14459

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry, but if a vlcak behaves like a wolf it only means that the breeder made bad selection/breeding decisions and/or neglected early socialisation of the pup. Alternatively it could mean that the owner did not socialize/train the pup correctly. A vlcak should be a vlcak not a wolf or a wolf-hybrid.

Unfortunately, some breeders select towards appearance only, ignoring character, early socialisation, owner selection, etc. and some naive buyers buy such animals without proper kennel research, knowledge about the breed, experience etc. Later such people write naive articles or claim that

Last time I checked the vlcak breed was made by crossing Czech working line German shepherds with Carpathian wolves. Not only that we're dealing with what, generations 9-12 now (roughly, depending on lines)? This means that they are still very close to their wolf ancestors and considering that there hasn't been any breeding with other breeds we can assume that the genetics in the first "official" generations are still present in today's generations.

Yes, a vlcak should be a vlcak but they will have wolfy characteristics. With mutts (no, I am not saying vlcaks are mutts) typically the breed it looks more like it will act more like. So with a vlcak that looks very wolfy (like a Slovak show line) chances are it's genetic temperament will be more wolfy than one that looks more like a silver and black GSD (like Czech working lines).

Also, thank you for the slap in the face. We socialized Pollux as much as we could. We even had him in our service dog training program and he got FAR more exposure than the average dog (South Florida Fair, short trips, etc.). When we had him he was out being socialized and even now when I walk him around the community I make a point to stop and talk to my neighbors for a while so he gets used to other people. He's still very skittish (that's the wolf side, not the GSD side). He enjoys schutzhund but I think that's mainly because he got to know the helper.

Even Luna has some characteristics that we assume are wolf characteristics. If she gets corrected and she thinks it's unfair you need to rebuild her trust, not like our GSDs or malinois who think "Stupid human, we forgive you" and aren't hurt by it.

Both vlcaks are always trying to reaffirm their place in our pack. They are far more affectionate (but not constant) than the other dogs (and any dog we've had in the past) and try more to interact with us.

Draggar, how many vlcaks have you raised until their full maturity to make such claims! How many vlcaks have you seen working, participating in shows, camps and trainings to have the right to state that
Why do you extrapolate your limited personal experience to the whole breed? CSV is not a 30% wolf! It's a dog.

Dogs are a subspecies of the wolf - that's why they were reclassified from canis familiaris to canis lupus familiaris (yes, canis lupus dingo also but we don't get into that now).

They have wolf recently in their history so they'll have wolf genetics and wolf temperaments (not 100% but a lot more than most breeds of dogs). Also at the FLA meeting the wolf hybrids there acted a lot more like our vlcaks than most dogs.

You also seemed to reiterate a lot that a vlcak is not a wolf or a wolf hybrid. Where did I make the claim that they are? All I said is that there is wolf in the breed's ancestry (I say my ancestry is in part Irish but I am not Irish). We appreciate that here. We think it is important to observe the characteristics of animals (domestic and wild) and learn from it. Many breeds of dogs have wolf characteristics and in our experience it seems that vlcaks have a lot more than the average dog. If we didn't appreciate "the wollfness" of the breed we would have stuck with German shepherds.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

We socialized Pollux as much as we could.

I didn't mean you were not socializing Pollux corectly. On the contrary I said earlier in some other thread that I appreciate you are doing so much for him. But I also remember a thread from the times when Sara's friend was getting him where several people from various parts of Europe were mentioning that CW gives great looks, but rather versatile characters - you have to be lucky to get a good dog for sports from that particular kennel. (BTW I don't have any experiences with CW dogs so it wasnt' me who made those remarks!).

Here I was talking in general terms. E.g. I know a very shy, wolfish vlcak female from a very nice litter with great genetics coming from a very good and caring kennel. Her sibilings are open and cooperating. Her skittishness, as you call it, is obviously caused by bad socialistion and negligence on the side of the owner. I wanted to make a point that not always only the breeder should be blamed for the dog's poor character... On the other hand I also know dogs of several other breeds with similar problems - shyness and other wolf characterisitics are not typical solely for vlcaks!

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona :
"I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression!

Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics."

Yeah exactly !! I could not have told it in better words ! This is the reason why I have a vlcak - and not an "American wolfdog" or any kind of hybrid / crossing , no matter what generation F1 to Fxxx it is!

May be it should be addet that vlcak - unlike any wolfdog crossings - have a history of (very strict in the beginning )selection and breeding to fulfill this standart both by physical appearance and by behaviour.

This is what is missing in the "breed" of wolfdog hybrids/mixes - anything is only leave to the chance... and that´s not breeding, it´s simply producing unpredictable mixes. With sometimes bad or even fatal results!

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

[hanninadina]

I start with last post from Uli. Uli it is completely nonsens when you write that there is not a selection done in american wolfdog breeders. Do you think only europaen dog breeders are able to select? The selection of csw was long time ago. If you look what kind of litters were made, you see that most of the csw breeders does not care and breed their own animals or use the male in the neighbourhood.

Please do not talk about things you know nothing from.

Rona, why should a F 6 csw does not have more wolf genes like a F 6 american wolfdog or like another csw F 6? Wolfdog genes shake and can stay longer time. And your example with that one dog out of the good breeder who is skittish must not be only a case of bad socializatin from the new owner but can be of course a matter that he has more wolf genes!

I did post it two times already since last year a paper was published, which said wolfgenes are also in Saluki, Basenji, Malamute, Siberian Husky, the northern Spitz breeds. Why do you think Rona, that in csw are no wolf genes anymore? I ask this question to Prof. Dr. Robert Wayne, the most well know and best wolf genetic expert in the world and he laughed at me and asked, are you serious? Of course do all our csw have wolf genes and of course more than any other dog breed! Only some wolfdog hybrids have more.

Draggar, of course your two csw from Edit missed some socialization. When I remember right, they came to the USA when being kind of older? As we all should know the most important time of socialization are the first 4-5 month in the life of a pup.

Rona, what do you think was Rep? He was F 2 with all kinds of wolf genetics - but in his case less than in other F 2 - and he acted like a dog! I am wondering that all you people telling csw are simple dogs seems to forget that fact, that one of the maine breed founder dogs was F 2 and was able to be like a simple dog although he was a wolf hybrid!

I made a litter with csw in 2008 and now in 2011 with american wolfdog. And even in this litter there are pure dogs and two are more wolfy. But all are dogs! Unpredictable, Sylvester, what is unpredictable? It is when a none experienced dog owner takes a dog for whom he is not ready! When I got my second Briard female, I was not ready for her, because I was not dog experienced enough and she was aggressiv coming from a french line. I did not know the difference because I was a beginner. Today she would be a very easy dog for me and I guess she would be lovely not only to the family. So what I wanna say, there are no unpredictable dogs. It is like driving a Ferrari or VW Golf. There is a difference and you have to be ready for it! But it is not the fault of the wolfdog!

Christian

[Silvester]

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"Uli it is completely nonsens when you write that there is not a selection done in american wolfdog breeders. Do you think only europaen dog breeders are able to select?"

Ok, then would you please tell and explain to me what breeders are doing a selection ? And for what do they "select"??? It´s a little difficult if there is no standart or anything like this, right ?

And how many breeders do you know personally ?( Beside yourself of course !)

Please do not talk about things you know nothing from.

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"Unpredictable, Sylvester, what is unpredictable?"

Well, I want to explain to you - obviously it´s neccessary: You know - or should know ! - that genetics is all time a kind of lottery. So if you don´t know about the genetical background of parents and you have already not made a selection for what you want and what you don´t want , you can not tell anything about the results you will get, it´s just - as I said already above- by chance and a lottery.

Means that you will have very different offspring, both in exterieur and in behaviour - please read about this in the books of (for example )Erik Zimen and his experiences with crossings of wolf and poodle, if you don´t know.

[Silvester]

In addition to my posting i want to do another correction:

Originally posted by hanninadina :
"As we all should know the most important time of socialization are the first 4-5 month in the life of a pup."

As we all should know - this is not correct !

It´s not the first 4-5 months but indeed only the first 3 months ... this can also been read in a lot of books, for example these of Eberhard Trumler.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Rona, (...) And your example with that one dog out of the good breeder who is skittish must not be only a case of bad socializatin from the new owner but can be of course a matter that he has more wolf genes!

No it wasn't! I saw the puppy when she was 6 and later 9 weeks old! It was a happy, friendly creature eager to learn new things and play with unknown people and animals!

Sorry, Christian, but I'm not going to talk with you or even read what you write unless you answer my question which I asked you a year ago.
Just to remind you:
My dog will be three next month and as you can see, still runs unleashed in public parks:


Sometimes even with another adult vlcak :


What's more she's able to make friends with new females (not all, but quite a few) Any comments?

PS Sorry for the OT

[saschia]

I meet with this again and again - operating with numbers such as wolfcontent of % of wolfblood to characterize such complex things as behavior of a wolfdog. This is complete bullshit!

The percents might work on first generations (if you thought that behavior is a continuous variable which mixes perfectly), but as soon as you start mixing F generations together the things complicate, and once you select for a certain trait, you'll get completely different results! Look at the exterior! Common 23%-wolf CSW will look 90% like wolf and the rest is not GSD-like, but more dog-like, even the worst-looking wolfdogs can be easily distinguished from GSD, better than best-looking wolfdogs from wolfs. Selection was done on the character too, and in the beginning of the breed it was much harsher than the selection on looks. The result is a wolfdog - not wolf at all, and not GSD. I would sooner compare wolfdog to cat than to either wolf or GSD.

What is wolfish in the behavior of CSW, is the constant awareness of their surroundings (except in deep sleep), the ability to think for themselves and learn quickly, becoming bored by repetitive tasks, and their ability to communicate so intensively. But this is not an opposite to GSD, it is just normal behavior that is not atrophied by domestication.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

I would sooner compare wolfdog to cat than to either wolf or GSD.

How true

Originally Posted by saschia

What is wolfish in the behavior of CSW, is the constant awareness of their surroundings (except in deep sleep), the ability to think for themselves and learn quickly, becoming bored by repetitive tasks, and their ability to communicate so intensively. But this is not an opposite to GSD, it is just normal behavior that is not atrophied by domestication.

Agree 100% with the whole post

[Silvester]

Originally posted by saschia:
"Common 23%-wolf CSW will look 90% like wolf and the rest is not GSD-like, but more dog-like, even the worst-looking wolfdogs can be easily distinguished from GSD, better than best-looking wolfdogs from wolfs.

Selection was done on the character too, and in the beginning of the breed it was much harsher than the selection on looks."

Yeah, that´s both true ! - I agree completely.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by saschia

What is wolfish in the behavior of CSW, is the constant awareness of their surroundings (except in deep sleep), the ability to think for themselves and learn quickly, becoming bored by repetitive tasks, and their ability to communicate so intensively. But this is not an opposite to GSD, it is just normal behavior that is not atrophied by domestication.

I agree with this! And, I think it's been shown by several experiments (like the previously mentioned Poodle x experiment) that crosses can be domesticated in a relatively short amount of time - far shorter than the 50 plus years that CsV has been being bred. Having said that, I think any trait that might be construed as "wolfy" is simply a breed character, not an accidental vestige of 'wolfiness'. There are MANY breeds of dogs, and many individual dogs, that are much further removed from wolves that may have traits of being shy, flighty, independent, vocal, etc, and I don't find it meaningful to relate that to so-called 'wolfiness' or not.

[bogdan]

BVORTEC welcome on board!You do a great work and your site its very interesting.
But it has nothing to do with the CSW.First of all this breed has been formed using the european wolf.The european wolfs are very different from the actual north american wolfs in terms of fenotip and behaviour.
The CSW breed is the result of a scientific work of selection during many years and I can call it a masterpiece in this field.
Yes,my dog is very wolfish.but this is what I like much on it.The breed creators have created a wolf which can be handle like a dog by its owner.First of all I like his wolfish apearance(european wolf) and after that I like all its wolf "features" like sociability,speed of reaction,higher senses,pride,higher inteligence.endurance and many other mentioned here by the other members.
It is true that the CSW needs special atention and an experimented owner.But take a look at the fotos and read the forums and you will see how good the "revue" for this breed is.I agree with you that the mixing of wild wolfs with dogs should not be alouded to anyone.

[GalomyOak]

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten. I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog. Luna's brother lives in Chicago, and is very social, another brother lives in North Carolina, he is submissive, but open, and the third brother lives with me, he has a temperament very much like his dad - i compare it to that of a snobby child - only wanting to ignore people that aren't "his friends", but not shy.

I have seen puppies from the same litter with very different personalities, puppies raised outdoors with very bold and open personalities. And, puppies raised indoors with heavy socialization who are quite shy and submissve...one of my own actually, Jovice, who was very open as a puppy. She was raised no differently than my other dogs - and her brothers, that I have met (and own 1), are 2 of the most open, dominant and bold CSVs that I know. They were a product of Baron, and Sleeping Storm Wolfsirius, a dog with an "unofficial" Of/Oc.

All of my dogs have really different personalities, but I'd hardly call them skittish (besides Jovice) - alert maybe, but no more so than the GSDs I work with. There are 2 GSDs in particular that remind me a lot of my CSVs...one is from CZ with heavy lines on Fero/Troll, and z Pohricini Straze, the other is heavy on Lord vom Gleisderick, one does schutzhund, the other, drug detection.

I really believe it's a combination of selected, but still, random genetics (especially with outcrosses) AND proper socialization...and I think it is very important that socialization is a carefully planned process throughout the first 2 years for our breed, as much as carefully researching genetics and seeing relatives before breeding.

I think an interesting piece of data to look at in Pollux's pedigree are the bonitations for several generations back. Sure, a character evaluation in bonitation isn't "everything"...but it is something, I guess. It's not my intention to point any harm at any breeder, but only to review data.

Pollux's mom, Yolka Crying Wolf = Oc
Yolka is the only dog with bonitation from this litter

Yolka's mom, Flash Crying Wolf = no bonitation
3 F Crying Wolf littermates with bonitation = Oc, Ob, Ob
On a sidenote, I had the opportunity to meet Frida CW at 7 years of age, she was only a little shy of new siuations and people and very aggressive towards strange dogs. She had been through lots of socialization, including schutzhund classes.

Flash came from Alfi Vuk and Moòa z Krotkovského dvora = Of, Og

Mooa's other litters with different males produced puppies = Of, Og, Of
Her parents were Of, Og

Alfi produced only one litter
His parents were Ob, Ob

It seems possible that a particularly dominant gene/s might have been expressed/preserved through the lines and combinations?