Study about when to take puppies home.

[yukidomari]

In the past on the forum has been some discussion about when would be the best time to take a puppy from it's mother.

Recently there was a study done in Italy which released the following:


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http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/2...ppy-too-young/

"Most veterinarians and dog breeders agree that puppies shouldn't be separated from the rest of their litter for adoption before 2 months of age. A new study corroborates that advice, showing that puppies removed from their broods earlier were more likely to develop behavioral problems as adult dogs.


It's an important issue, the authors note, because pets' behavioral problems affect their relationships with owners and the risk of later abandonment.


Veterinary researchers in Naples, Italy, interviewed the owners of 140 dogs, ages 18 months to 7 years. Half of the dogs had been removed from their litters and adopted between 30 and 40 days, while the other half were not adopted until they were 60 days old.


The owners, who were all clients of veterinary practices around Naples, participated in telephone surveys that asked about their pets' provenance, breed and observed problematic behaviors.


About 50% of all dogs included in the study were purchased at pet shops, while 33% came from friends or relatives and 16% were acquired from breeders. None were adopted from shelters, nor had any been traumatized as puppies.
Overall, the researchers found, attention seeking and reactivity to noises were the most commonly reported problem behaviors. Younger dogs (under 3 years old) were also significantly more likely to be destructive and to tail-chase than older animals.


But the dogs that had been separated from their litters early — regardless of breed, size or whether they had been neutered — were significantly more likely to exhibit most of the problem behaviors that the researchers asked about. These included:

• Destructiveness
• Excessive barking
• Fearfulness of walks
• Reactivity to noises
• Possessiveness of food and toys
• Attention seeking
• Aversion or aggression toward strangers
• Play biting
• Tail chasing
• Soiling the house

The researchers did not determine exactly why early removal from a litter may cause dogs to act out as adults, but they surmised that some dogs may have a genetic predisposition to certain conditions, including fear, anxiety and phobia of noises, and that early environmental experiences may increase the likelihood that they will develop these conditions or go on to have disordered behavior.


"It is generally accepted that dogs go through a sensitive period, the socialization period, during which social experiences and stimuli have a greater effect on the development of their temperament and behavior than if they occur in later life," wrote the authors.


The study was published in the journal Veterinary Record.




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Of course, this is also with the understanding that puppies left with their mothers are also properly socialized by the breeders, not simply left in a kennel with their mothers, which I don't think would help them at all.


It's an interesting study!

[Sir Allen]

Thanks for sharing Ms. Yukidomari.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

It's an interesting study!

Not only the study, but also the topic itself. You can buy a 5 weeks old wolfdog in Czech republic... Legally

[Hanka]

And how you know it?
I send you small part of czech rules of kynologican union here:


Českomoravská kynologická unie

ŘÁD OCHRANY ZVÍŘAT PŘI CHOVU PSŮ

d) minimální věk pro odběr štěňat od feny je 50 dnů.

(minimal age for taking of puppy from female is 50 days)

Why you write something about what you don´t know?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Why you write something about what you don´t know?

Hanka, relax, why are you so tensed and feeling like everyone is attacking you personally? Yes, we all have rules, but there are allways people who overcome them. Sad, but true.

[Hanka]

Of course, but you wrote it is legally here. It is not right info.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Of course, but you wrote it is legally here. It is not right info.

Well, but puppies get pedigrees, so...
How does this system work in other countries? How do kennel clubs ensure that a puppy goes home not earlier than it is allowed (in Lithuania 6 weeks, but I personally think it is still a bit too early)?

[*Satu]

Finland.
Delivery earlier than 7 weeks of age. And not a day less than this, some breeders use to 12 weeks.

[GalomyOak]

Like most things regarding dogs, in the US it is largely unregulated when a pup is taken from it's litter.

I hear way too many stories of "I got my puppy when it was 5 weeks old..."

The AKC gives papers within 2-3 weeks of the original application, which can be sent the day the puppies are born.

[yukidomari]

Well, Kennel Club regulations are not the same thing as the law.

The KC may have a preference or advice regarding age of placement but again, that's not the same as law.

Here in the USA, many cities and counties (sometimes state-level) have regulations and statutes that make selling puppies under 8 weeks old an offense. For example, here in Los Angeles, ordinance number 181,353 says in part:

"E. Agree not to transfer a dog or cat until it has reached the age of eight weeks, has been weaned, micro-chipped, immunized against common diseases, and in the case of a dog four months of age or older, has received its rabies vaccination. Proof of the rabies and other vaccinations shall be provided to the new owner; "


Course, monitoring is lax and largely not actively enforced, mostly it's based on people calling in and reporting someone.. I have reported backyard breeders who are selling dogs under 8 weeks old. Usually they get a visit from Animal Control and a warning, though the ordinances here do give outlines for violations:

"A violation of the transfer permit provisions of this Section may be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or an infraction or punishable by means of an administrative citation. Failure to comply with the terms and conditions of the transfer permit and applicable law shall also be grounds for the revocation or suspension of the transfer permit."

[Shadowlands]

There are no regulations that I know of here in Bulgaria (and even if there were, nobody would take a blind bit of notice ), but we like our pups to be at least 10 weeks old before they leave (up to date on everything, of course!)

[Nebulosa]

Personally I prefer to let the owners pick up the pups when they have about 90 days old, it's hard to stay with whole litter until this age and keep working in socializing them, but what the pack teaches to the pups helps a lot the future owners. According my experience, it turns the pups much easier to teach and also to accept his hierarchy place in his new pack, it's like if the adults teach them to how to respect and also how to react to different situations envolving dogs and also people.

[hanninadina]

Paula, maybe you wonder, but this is my experience too! It makes the life for the future owner much easier when puppies are raised up by their parents and maybe one, two other adults or even a yearling. And of course you are right that it is real hard stuff to have all these pups around for a longer time.

First I always thought it is better to give a wolfdog to their new place with 6 weeks and a normal dog with 7 weeks. But from their outgoing behaviour it is easier to be teached by other wolfdogs than by us the human being.

But it is almost not possible to socialize 5 - 8 pupps during this most important time of the life of a dog! I socialized 3 pups and of course for everyone of them it had been better if I had to socialize only one. Especially if a pup needs a bit more time. And with socializing I mean, driving by car, going in the city, driving train, going into the Zoo, Coffee shops, Restaurants, Bars all places where a lot of noise is and many many people. and last but not least to puppy dogschool. You need a lot of helping hands to do this.

So in the middle I would give my pupps next time not so early like 6 or 7 weeks but I would say around 10 - 12 weeks. Even bite ignition would be better because the parents teach them.

It depends in which new house they go. Do the people live in the city or in the forrest. Do they want to take their dog everywhere or only for outdoor activities. But of course you never know if this will change in future life of a pup.

Christian

[Shadowlands]

You are so right Christian, it is difficult to socialise a large litter of pups to the outside world (car rides, crowds of people, traffic etc.) but what mum and the pack teach them is just as important. Finding a happy balance between the 2 is a breeder's big challenge (one of them)

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

So in the middle I would give my pupps next time not so early like 6 or 7 weeks but I would say around 10 - 12 weeks. Even bite ignition would be better because the parents teach them.

Christian

we purposely brought our last 3 dogs home when they were 10 weeks old, for exactly these reasons. our Vlcak puppy was still extremely bitey (very hard!!) and mouthy.... a few times he's drawn blood.. and I recall at his breeder's house, he had another puppy besides his brother, plus other adults too, to 'teach' him.

I can't imagine what it would be like to have a Vlcak puppy with even less bite inhibition should I have gotten him at 7-8 weeks..

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

It is generally against German law to separate dog-puppies from their mother earlier than with 8 weeks. If they have to be separated from their mother out of medical reasons they have to stay together till this age.
Also the German kennel club doesn´t allow to give them away before this age. As there is a second control by the kennel club at this time you have to show all puppies at your own place or you are in trouble.
If you get a German puppy before this age without medical need and no matter if FCI or not it is illegal and you should be very aware that the breeder is acting outside the law, no matter what his intentions are.

Ina

[nobrezabranca]

In portugal is the same then in germany,there is a litter confirmation by the portuguese kennel club at aprox 8th week to confirm the number and quality of the puppis of the litter,and if there are any missing,they only issue the number of pedegrees according to the number of puppies they see.some breders sell puppies sooner,because not every litter is verified and they sometimes risk to sell them sooner...
personaly I didn´t sold any puppy before the 10th week at least...
but I have another question,is there a maximum age to sell them?what are the problems if you sell one puppy later,with 4,6,8,9 months,what can be the problems?is there an ideal maximum age to sell puppies?
this is my case,because I had a puppy to sell to brasil first and because of the vaccines and other burocracies,the buyer was getting it only with 3/4 months.after several e-mails exchanged,when everything was almost arranged,he changed his mind and didn't wanted the puppy no more,because he said that it was too heavy and so too expensive to travel!!!better this way,because for me it meant that he really didn't wanted a twd.so I kept her until I thought that I had found a good owner to her,but he had no space for the puppy to be to play as it needs,and as he told me he had, and so after some days I got her back,because money for me isn´t everything!now the puppy is 9 months old,62/3cm at least and 34kg,a little more.I have 2 sisters,but I only can keep one because of the portuguese law!I want to keep both,but...I almost every day take them out to play in the beach and walk among people,cars,other dogs,etc,but they are very attached to me.If and when I find the right owner for her,what must the new owner pay attention to when he takes it home?what must I warn him about?and must the new owner have another dog to play with it because the puppy is used to play with the parents and sister or can it be a single dog?is the space and love of the new owner enough?

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by NobrezaBranca

this is my case,because I had a puppy to sell to brasil first and because of the vaccines and other burocracies,the buyer was getting it only with 3/4 months.after several e-mails exchanged,when everything was almost arranged,he changed his mind and didn't wanted the puppy no more,because he said that it was too heavy and so too expensive to travel!!!

The same woman who almost bought a dog from you has sent several e-mails to me asking for pups before it, she entered in contact with you because she was refused as a possible owner by me due her lack of experience with dogs at all!

After she found too heavy the price of your pup plus the transport fee, she phoned me asking for a pup and trying to convince me about how would be important for her to have -specifically- a Czechoslovakian wolfdog, with quite emotional histories.
I told her that she had no experience enough to own a dog like CzW and that would be better for her to save a life adopting an small/mediun size mongrel, and that in this way she would also gain a lot of experience with dogs.

2 months later she bought a Wippeth, she had so many problems in educate such horribly hard dog, which was crying over the house and destructing her new sofa, that she gave him back to the breeder 3 times!

You accepted to sell the dog to her and you would have done it if she had payed for it, I wonder if you would have traveled as far as Brazil for rescue him or if you would let him die 3 days after being rescued by our shelters.. maybe he could have been sold to some kind of puppy miller here.

Oh yes, as experience she had miniature Pintcher which died drowned in the swimming pool of her mother's house, and she let very clear that her new big size pet would live in her mother's garden, because she lives in an small flat!
At her very first e-mail she let clear that she expected from CzW to be as good as the police's Malinois!

That was exactly why I did this topic
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20542

[nobrezabranca]

are you sure that it is the same woman???!!!it was a woman that lived only with her son and mother and she told me that she had a big house with a big garden and that she needed a dog to guard the house,that was very activ because she had a big space!!!and because there were only women living there.not a pet to liv inside the house!
pehaps as she spoke with you first she then corrected and changed her story to me,so that I would trust her enough to sell her the puppy...she spoke over the phone to me several times and she always told me the "story" of the big open space she had and the fact that they needed a guard dog to them,only women...and beside this,that she read a lot about twd and that she liked them a lot and that beside the beauty they would be vey loved and do a lot o exercise!!!of course I didn´t sent it to her as small as she wanted because of the reasons here explained(legal and tempeament,socialization,vaccines,papers,etc),and I didn't made it cheaper because wolfdogs have an average price and is our duty as breeders to maintain that price,and also I know that the breeder in brazil is selling them much,much more expensive...and if she wants a wolfdog,she must also have the money to provide all the needs to give it a good live(you don't buy a ferrari if you don't have enough money later to pay for the essence,insurance,maintenance,etc)!
so,she told me a completely diferent story,otherwise I would never even consider to sell it to her!!!no way!!!she tried to be very clever with me...good that she hadn't enough money...
it seems that beside having a list of dogs with false pedegrees,it seems that we also need a "black list" of people that shoudn't get a twd,regardless of what they are prepaired to pay!!!
and about me selling puppies to dog mills,if I would do so,I could have long have sold the puppy.my problem is not having a buyer,but having a buyer that I trust,that I'm sure,or relatively sure that he would treat her as it deserves,as it is treated by me.
I sometimes eat cheap food,go to work by public transportation,don't go out,etc,but for my dogs I have always money to give them the best food,vet care,vaccinees,treatments against fleeas and other such insects(i don't know how to say it in english...),worms,meat beside the dog food,etc
If I hadn't any dog,with that money I could go away,at least, 2 times a year to a paradisiacal place,all included,and instead I don't travel since I got them!
it's a choice that I don't regret,they deserve it and much more...
and about the problems of selling an older dog,none has answered me to this question!

[Nebulosa]

Exactly the same woman, when she phoned me she came with this same history, but she has forgotten about the e-mail she sent me months ago which I havent replied, were she talked about the police's malinois she saw and how amused she got for the dog and its obedience, that her whish was to have a CzW like this.
Yes, she found my dogs expensive, as she found your dog pus transport fee expensive as well, then in the end she saw that importing a dog is yet much more expensive than buy a dog from here, that's why she gives up on your dogs and tried again to buy one from me.
Remembering here that she havent imported the dog, then she had no idea that she would probably need to pay 60% of whole price in taxes to pick up the dog at the airport.
Well, it would be almost 3x my price.

Im not telling YOU would sell a dog to a puppy miller, but that SHE would re-sell the animal to the first puppy miller interested in buy and pay the price she payed for the dog.

Unfortunately we cant make such public list with bad owners/breeders names, but if you follow the tips I wrote in the topic I posted here will be already fine and safe to your pups.