Is there at least one working line in the breed of csw?

[hanninadina]

Hi Przemek,

you wrote in the german forum a experienced nice artikel ablut "workinglines" in CSW. But sorry to say, you didn´t not answer the main question from me, at what point a working line starts? How many generation must have been prove that they are able to work and how many puppies from each litter must have passed working examinations?

I guess everyone knows that you can take part with IPO 1 in shows in the working class and for the FCI/VdH this is a working dog.

I like to hear more opinions to that theme. In germany there are a lot of people, can say the most of them, who say, there are not enough CSW to say that there exists a working line. But my example are the puppies from Hasso broke down over Amber, Bixi and so on who have proved to 4th generations and at least 3 puppies from each litter with IPO and more that they are working dogs.

How people in italy see it, like Massimo who is working too with Olli? Of course Olli comes not from a working line. But all the pups from Ambra, like Last Navarre, Lorenz Farouk are so called working dogs.

And remember, not everyone who has a working CSW does tests and working results.

The discussion starts because there is one german breeder who has a litter with the parents coming out from my point of view from Worling lines.

Nice easter to everyone.

Christian

[massimo]

In italy only 2 dogs have IPO1
SKY and Susie Passo del lupo

SKY:
Guess what...he's son of
I'Navarre Arimminum, son of Ambra, daughter of HASSO.
Hasso surely gives working lines because many working dogs come from him.

Susie Passo del lupo
Daughter of Cutt and Usta
Usta is mother of Shinook, Trained and with certificate for civil protection.
Usta is sister of UMA
Uma is mother of Oliver...
Also mother of Tajga pdl, trainable dog.

I think we are in two different cases.
in the first case we have an evident working line.
Not only different generations get the blood but also different litters from different mothers get it.

In the second case i think (my personal opinion) we can see an open and friendly temper line, not necessarily a "working" line.
Carmen Vlèí stezka daughters and puppies from daughters I have seen are all with quite open character, easily trainable (not wolfish and shy). But..., for what i see, not exaclty working line.
It took me months and months to get from oliver a simple "obedience" that i saw a German shephard do in 1 hour on his first training day (DAMN!!!)

Of course in my opinion you can see a working line ONLY if owners are WORKING owners...
there can be a "non working line" with some working dogs and a "working line" with non working owners but you will NEVER know it was a working line.

....confused? dazzled?

ME TOO!!
massimo

[mijke]

Originally Posted by massimo

Of course in my opinion you can see a working line ONLY if owners are WORKING owners...
there can be a "non working line" with some working dogs and a "working line" with non working owners but you will NEVER know it was a working line.

I agree with you!
I see the same also in other breeds.

In holland it is also difficult to work with a CsW when you are a working owner! Because a lot of groups even refuse members with a CsW

And the most crazy thing: in Holland the CsW is still not official recognised as a working breed!
So when I want to do an IPO examn, I have to go to an other country!
But we are working on it, and we hope the rules will change in future!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by massimo

....confused? dazzled?

ME TOO!!
massimo

Me not. Very clear and logical!

[freewild]

hello

in french it's so difficult to working with wolfdog , no IPO

because only tracking and obediance

furcas on tis time "working " in fact he starting but mother and father as furcas working "VZ1, VZ2, OB0, ZOP, ZZO, SVP1, ZVP1"

and mother" VZ1, ZOP, ZVP1, OB0"

but, from how many generation can one consider that a dog resulting from one lined of work??

we can considerated as an wolfdog have a temperate as working dog and working with this dog this is the real difference

no ??

[Nebulosa]

Already exist differences betwen selection for say about one show line and one working line?
In my opinion, only exist working line if already exist a show line, dogs that cannot work or will not work because lack someting like body or behavior for this.
I not have see so big differences in the CzW at least in body.

[massimo]

just one thing...for those of you who have any doubts about Hasso being NOT ONLY a working DOG but also a working BLOODLINE...
Hasso z Kladenské záøe CS
ZM, ZVV1, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, OP1, IPO3, ZPS1, FH1, FH2, ZVV1, VZ1

direct sons of Hasso:
Ira z Litavské kotliny CS
ZOP, ZM, RH-E, ZVV1, VZ1, ZPU1, ZPU2, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, BH, ZPO1, ZZO

Irma z Litavské kotliny CS
PT1, PT2, LA1, LA2, LA3

Ambra Vlèí nadìje
SchH1, IPO1

Kelt z Molu Es
SchHA, ZPO1, IPO1, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZOP

Sky and Upstream Ariminnum are direct sons of Ambra...

Can it be simply a coincidence?
massimo

[Kerstin]

Originally Posted by massimo

Sky and Upstream Ariminnum are direct sons of Ambra...

We have an offspring from Upstream Ariminum.

Guess something.

He loves working He works hard, very good and is willing to learn anything. Training this dog is fun.

Our other dog is able to work, too. BUT: It is no fun for her- it is hard work to teach her something and she does not really want to work. She does it, because she has to, not because she likes it.

Selection, bloodline or training?

I think all these point are important and go together.

To breed working dogs you need to have dogs which are able to work and love to work. And the easiest thing to find these dogs is to check the dogs which are already successful workers.

It might take some time to establish a working line, but I am pretty sure it will come in future. Maybe people start looking at pedigrees and ask for training. And maybe other people just want to get a wolfdog .....

[massimo]

Originally Posted by mijke

So when I want to do an IPO examn, I have to go to an other country!

For anybody who loves wolfdogs to see Hero Od Uhoste and Upstream Ariminnum working is a great honour....
I have the luck to have seen both in less than a week....
Api is female and so her heat interrupts the excellent work done by her owner, but trust me, they are both really impressive, hero in particular looks like a working machine!!
Congratulations again to their Owners and Breeders.
Wolfdogs are not only "wolfish" looking dogs....
massimo

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo, here in czech republic exist "working blood line" of course. In this bloodline are some wolfdogs, who has not exams. But you can see, they have working possibility. They love training, aport, barking...... The breeders of wolfdogs in czech republic know, what dogs are very good for training and what puppies from some parents can be good for it. Quantity of exams of parents is not important. Important is working preconditions. I know more wolfdogs with this characters. And not all have some exams.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello Massimo, here in czech republic exist "working blood line" of course. In this bloodline are some wolfdogs, who has not exams. But you can see, they have working possibility. They love training, aport, barking...... The breeders of wolfdogs in czech republic know, what dogs are very good for training and what puppies from some parents can be good for it. Quantity of exams of parents is not important. Important is working preconditions. I know more wolfdogs with this characters. And not all have some exams.

Hanka dear, by mentioning Hasso I absolutely didn't mean to exclude all the others!
Just that it is much easier to use Hasso as an example because he and close parents have provable exams.
Surely there are dogs from "working line" with good working possibilities (as I already mentioned in my first post) but i can only bring as "proof" mine or other peoples words.
Exams are easier proof!!

massimo

[wolfin]

Hi, a degree Masimo. if dog not have exam he not have proof whe hes working.
people cann more say : "me dog is super utility, but i not have and not make exams -this is stupid idea". and hes dog is't working dog in reality.
Only exam cann this proofe.
(regards from Hasso linie Harmonia is working bitch with Hasso blood hes puppies have working possibility like shes )

[Hanka]

Yes I know, my female is daughter of Hasso too. She loves !!!! training and all types of activites (Mushing, tracking, obedience, protect training, she barks very much,she can run with aport all day,...) But she has not exams (She is female of my daughter for funny dog activites and hobby dog-sports and she is family darling, only) But I know, if I will mate her with good dog, the puppies can be very good for work too. And some her puppies have the same character like she has. I know, what she is, some my frineds and other czech breeders know, what she is and what are her puppies. If somebody will want puppy for sporttraining the owner can choose from her litter. And_ I know- from what parents I can choose puppy for work too. In this case is not important if parents have exams or no.
I know a few czech wolfdogs with some exams. And I know, it is not dog for work. They work not with pleasure. It is not my favorite parent for working puppy. For me is not important what exams I see on the wolfdog pages. For me is important what I know about character of dog.
Sorry, maybe it is not what you want to hear, but it is what I can see in my state. Because I know population of wolfdogs here ( it is not much wolfdogs ) and I know much wolfdogs almost personally

[Sky]

Hi, I am Alessio the owner of Sky I apologize me for the delay in the answers, but I had the broken computer!!!!

The line of blood is very important, with Sky we have been fortunate, to the beginning we wanted a dog to do alone expo, later after sometime interest she is begun to my wife for the job with the dog and Sky he has followed her footstep footstep.
Every time that we go to try new figuranti they always confirm us hisimprovements and to us there riempie of satisfaction, here in italia people found him on the abilities of the German shepherds and when they see to work Sky they stay I surprised by what succeeds in doing.

However the result of gotten Sky IPO1 (hope soon in IPO2)va added by the fact that my Wife was the first dog that trained, his first dog!!! And that Sky has reached the solos obbettievo 2 years.

Besides that it doesn't spoil it is never also a dog that respects the standard of the race.

My give parts it is said Good and beautiful, thing to want more?

You greet Alessio

Thanks to Massimo

[hanninadina]

Thank you all for your opinions. We have for one week the englih girlfriend of my son with her mother in our house, so I not much time to read and write here.

I am very glad, Hanka, that you confirm me, that there is/are working lines of CSW. And I agree with you that a dog doesn´t need a proof with examn that he/she is a good worker! Sure it makes it much more easier to proof. But people who know what a working dog should be able to do now what working dogs are.

In germany I think people were a bit surprised that I brought them in in this theme. Some people even breeders discuss this theme although they didn´t know really what a dog must be able to do an IPO 1. They don´t know that there must be pass an obedience part, Fährte (sorry nose part..) and of course the part of saving, hope you understand what I mean.

Sure doing sledgedog sports or agility is workinig too and as Hanka wrote a dog who likes to work likes to work in every different work or sport no matter what it is.

And thanks Massimo for confirming the working ablities of Api.

I guess Kerstin wrote it, an experienced dog owner knows the difference between a dog who likes to work and who does it with joy and fun and a dog who does it but you need much more time and he does it without any fun. That is the difference.

And if you mate one dog who likes to work with another one you can be sure that from a litter with let us say 8 puppies 5-6 will love to work and 2 not. In comparison to a litter from a none working line you will have probably 2 puppies who like to work and 6 who looking at you and "say" you mean me???? I should work???? You make fun of me!!!!

Bye for now

Christian

Nebulosa, a working dog should be too a show dog. doing shows is one part of work. And of course a working dog too must have all to pass the standard. And most of them have a better standard than an only show dog because for example they must be able to go (run) nice with good legs, sorry missing the real word for gangwerk.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Nebulosa, a working dog should be too a show dog. doing shows is one part of work. And of course a working dog too must have all to pass the standard. And most of them have a better standard than an only show dog because for example they must be able to go (run) nice with good legs, sorry missing the real word for gangwerk.

That's right!
But here enter one problem, that's not only in the CzW but in all working breed dogs, some breeders that have ugly dogs means that they are ugly because appearence isn't important for a working dog, they use the work as excuse for continue breeding dogs out of the standard, and put the dogs in work too because they isn't able to get titles in show, no matter for then if the dog like or not work ( one caracteristic of a working dog is like work) important for they is the working titles.

[hanninadina]

I know what you mean. Maybe you know that I have a briard male too. He is a stud breeding male and like to work. I did lots of shows and have briard friends in belgium, holland, czechie, italy and germany. I know that some people put their not so nice looking briards in the working class, ok they have a title as a working dog, sure, but in this way they like to get nice show titles as cacib and cac. But the judges look for standard. They don´t get presents.

Christian

[Huan]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

How people in italy see it, like Massimo who is working too with Olli? Of course Olli comes not from a working line. But all the pups from Ambra, like Last Navarre, Lorenz Farouk are so called working dogs.

Why do you mention Lorenz Farouk as working dog. Having Ambra as a mother makes a dog a working dog? As far as I know Lorenz Farouk has good character but doesn't have any passed exams. We can't base only on "good character" when calling some bloodline a working line.

I will keep my opinion that there are no real working lines in the breed. As a working line I would understand a line in which the extraordinary character is being inherited by the offsprings of these dogs and there are proofs that the character is genetically better than in other lines. What I can agree about that there are specific dogs which gave better characters, their offspring has also good characters. But good character for me is just typical feature and not something extraordinary. Shortly said: there are lines with typical (according standard) and untypical characters. For a line to become a "working line" I would like to see wolfdogs which are not just trainable but ones that have real drive for work. And I'm not talking about single cases but whole line with working exams passed on higher levels.

As for Hasso being the father of working line: I understand that people who own wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree will promote him as a founder of a working line because at the same time their dogs become "woldogs from THE working line" Breeders are also very often promoting the same way - having puppies from "working line" is not a bad thing even when it's just a marketing talk But there are many facts that will show that Hasso besides being one of a few wolfdogs with IPO3 doesn't pass the super working abilities on his offsprings. First of all we should think over whether Hasso had any EXCEPTIONAL working abilities which he could pass over or maybe he was just an ordinary wolfdog with typical, stable character and an owner having lots of free time spending it on training Hasso? I know it took Hasso many years to pass IPO3 exam, the training with Hasso was a way of spending free time for Mr. Pudil. The question is: what would your wolfdog achieve if you would spend the same amount of time on training? If the dog gets up to IPO3 will it automatically become founder of working line and if only IPO2 then it will not be a working line dog? There are too many factors that influence achieved exams (work of the owner being the major factor).

OK. Now let's look at the offsprings of Hasso to check whether we can say that they have better working abilities than other wolfdogs. According to the database there are 759 wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree. You named a few with passed exams. How does it correspond to these 759 wolfdogs? Mentioned dogs make less than one percent of all offsprings of Hasso. Besides some of these dogs have Hasso in further generation and saying that Hasso is responsible for the training achievements of the specific dog is like saying that the wolfdog got IPO1 because he has Bojar, great working german shepherd dog, in tenth generation

Originally Posted by massimo

SKY:
Guess what...he's son of
I'Navarre Arimminum, son of Ambra, daughter of HASSO.
Hasso surely gives working lines because many working dogs come from him.
...
in the first case we have an evident working line.

No, in the first case we have an evident dog with correct, typical character. It's not my fault that some judges or breeders promote shy dogs. Only because the typical dog has IPO3 dog in 3rd generation doesn't make his bloodline a working line. If we go in this direction then we can go further. ALL WORKING DOGS have Rep z Pohranicni straze in their pedigree. Does it mean Rep is founder of a working line?

Originally Posted by massimo

for those of you who have any doubts about Hasso being NOT ONLY a working DOG but also a working BLOODLINE...
Hasso z Kladenské záøe CS
ZM, ZVV1, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, OP1, IPO3, ZPS1, FH1, FH2, ZVV1, VZ1

direct sons of Hasso:
Ira z Litavské kotliny CS
ZOP, ZM, RH-E, ZVV1, VZ1, ZPU1, ZPU2, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, BH, ZPO1, ZZO

Irma z Litavské kotliny CS
PT1, PT2, LA1, LA2, LA3

Ambra Vlèí nadìje
SchH1, IPO1

Kelt z Molu Es
SchHA, ZPO1, IPO1, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZOP

Sky and Upstream Ariminnum are direct sons of Ambra...

Nice examples. But are you sure these dogs achieved these exams because they had Hasso in their pedigree? Ira and Irma are daughters of Hasso BUT they are also daughters of Abra z Molu which got ZVV2 (comparable with IPO2). Abra herself is daughter of Gar z Rosikova (ZM, ZVV1, ZPU, ZZP1, ZLP1, ZVV2, VZ 100 km) and Asta z Tondova (ZM, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZUP). But yet you are saying that Irma and Ira are working dogs because of Hasso whoes parents have .... one ZOP.

Irma is also not a perfect example of working dog. She makes beautiful obedience and agility but at the same time she has very strong reaction on gun shot and because of it she will never pass BH or IPO.

Kelt z Molu is also not a best example. Everybody who saw Kelt during work and his mother Ajbix will have no doubts that Kelt inherited character from his mother. The difference is that she doesn't have IPO3 like Hasso but I'm sure she could get it if only Monika would have more time to train her and had such aspiration. Monika herself was saying that Ajbix works like a German Shepherd Dog. And exactly such type of work makes Kelt so good working CzW (many people say the best in CZ).

Upstream Ariminnnum has very nice character but everybody knows that Aron Maly Bysterec, father of Upstream, gives such specific stable characters to his offsprings. I'm sure Mirka, owner of Mery Kysucka hvezda (daughter of Aron) or Saschia, owner of Frei Maly Bysterec (also daughter of Aron) will agree with me. It doesn't have to be contribution of Hasso. And there are much more offsprings of Aron with good, stable character and everybody who saw him working on sleeve during the camp in Slovakia will admit that Upstream is working like her father. I know that some people will never admit that there are Slovakian CzWs with nice character but it is so.

Originally Posted by massimo

Can it be simply a coincidence?

Yes. We are talking about dog with 759 offsprings. Naming a few with passed exams can be considered only as a coincidence.

But when it comes to Hasso. I saw Hasso offsprings in first generation and many of them were very shy. It's visible in the database. I didn't saw any of the puppies of Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic. From the litter of Doubravka I saw one dog: Fany. Their owners said to people many times that the dog doesn't cooperate with them and is hard to train (not shy) and it was also very good visible. From the litter of Cira Volani rodu I saw 6 dogs: Agar - he was given to dog specialist because of shy character in order to prepare him for bonitation, Asta was shy, Bad Vlci nadeje also shy (Oc and P5 from bonitation), Beatris is living in Poland and even now she is not able to calm down in the ring - she's always scared and Bianka - disqualication during bonitation because of character. And I'm talking about dogs which I saw on my own eyes.


I'm not denying that there are bloodlines with better or worser characters but I'm against calling some lines a "working line" just because there is a IPO3 dog in x-generation or because the dogs have good, stable character. Typical character is a MUST and not something extraordinary. We can talk about bloodlines with typical or untypical characters and not about working or useless lines. Don't forget that the breed is defined as working breed so when you're saying that some line is a "working line" you're talking about "super working dogs" I can't say that offsprings of my dog will be a part of working line just because I was able to socialize my dog in the way that he shows no shyness

[massimo]

nice discussion Przemek.
Just a couple of comments:
I'm good in maths and statistics too.
On a mathematical point of view, considering dogs and offspring, NO WORKING LINE EXISTS TODAY.
I agree.

I understand that people who own wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree will promote him as a founder of a working line because at the same time their dogs become "woldogs from THE working line" Breeders are also very often promoting the same way - having puppies from "working line" is not a bad thing even when it's just a marketing talk

I do not own any son of hasso or hero so I am not one of those promoting them.
I leave Marketing and Mass Mediatic publicity or Mass Puppy production to expert breeders and pc users, there are many aren't there? ...
I would just like people around to reflect on a couple of points:
a dog with no working results not necessarily means he is not a "possible" working dog, because this would be valid only if they receive the same socialization and training so it's obvious that's not possible.
statistics and percentages would be useless.
But we can make an "opposite" calculation: how many dogs have ipo or equivalent today? does any of them have the same percentage of DIRECT SONS like Hasso in all the history of wolfdogs?
I cannot make this calculation as I do not have direct access to your database.
3/34=8.8%, and 34 is an interesting population (if it was 1 ipo out of 2 puppies number would NOT be significant).
Is this a simple coincidence?
Maybe, maybe Hasso was so lucky that they always mated him with females with very good working bloodline, and didn't put any "working" blood himself, maybe it's a coincidence as you say.
I personally don't think so.
Big male studs (ex.Milo/Cutt/Clover/Charon/etc.) have same or similar coincidences with more than one direct son IPO?
I am curious to know.
Massimo

[saschia]

HI all, I would like to add my small amount of water to this sea ;o) as Przemek mentioned my Frei.

I have a feeling there might be another bias when considering some dog providing "working line". Here is hypothetical situation:

There is a stud dog with IPO3 named X. There is another stud dog without IPO3 (because his owner does not give a damn about exams) with very similar good character as X, named Y.

There is a potential buyer, who wants for some reason to have a working dog and he wants CsV (not GS or BS or border collie etc.). He decides to buy puppy after X, because X has exam and his owner propagates him as working line founder. The puppy has a good character and his owner is able to make exams with it.

There is another buyer who doesn't give a damn about exams, just wants a good character wolfdog, and as the puppies of Y are slightly cheaper than those of X, he takes puppy from Y. The puppy has also good character but the owner teaches it basic obedience and funny tricks for his children.

Let's say this happes several times with puppies after X and Y in several generations. Let's say that every time the breeders of both "lines" are very responsible and choose very precisely mate for their dog, so the character remains very good for several generations. In the end, we would have two lines - one "working" line, where every generation has at least one IPO dog, while the second line has no exams or only minor ones. But the character is very similar, it all depended only on choices of the owners!

So what I want to say by my example? If you have breed which is not "typical" working breed - typical meaning that people who want working dog prefer this breed over others, if this breed is relatively minor in number of dogs and therefore most of dogs are relatives in fifth generation, then there is quite a little probability of creating working lines if you want to avoid inbreeding (which is certainly not good for good character). You have working pseudo lines created by psychology of people. This does not mean that the dogs are not good working dogs. it means only that they are more used for making exams. Real working line could be established by separating it from other, non-working lines, but that would mean not only that it could include only exam-making dogs, but also that those dogs used should not be used in the reminder of the gene pool. And in working breed you don't want to avoid using good dogs in breeding. And I think good character is wanted by most people, not only by those who want to make exams.

This is my opinion only, so if you don't agree I have no problem with it, it is just gut feeling. And to comment on Frei Maly Bysterec, daugter of Aron Maly Bysterec - if she was owned by another kind of person she would be material for working exams I think.