What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?

[fizban]

Hello everybody,

There's quite some turmoil in the Italian forum in these days. Most of us have their own thoughts about this all, but I'd personally like to hear what people (and breeders) not directly involved in the Italian-CsW-related issues think about it.

I don't want to influence anyone at this point, so here's the question: what kind of dog is the one you can see in the following two photos?

http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0359.html
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0362.html

Thanks for your feedbacks

[Nebulosa]

I believe that if happen one cross betwen CzW and Saarloos can born one dog seems at the one of this foto.

[fenris]

Sure looks like a really nice dog. Hope someone knows its heritage. Why couldnt it be a pure CWD?

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by fizban

I don't want to influence anyone at this point, so here's the question: what kind of dog is the one you can see in the following two photos?

http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0359.html
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0362.html

Thanks for your feedbacks

Honestly, I do not mean to be bad, but these two photos are not really good and it is practically impossible to say anything about the dog.
I have seen pure CSW´s who looked like jackals, other that looked like long-haired German shepherds and still others, that looked very much like wolves. And they all had pedigree for CSW.

[Jal]

Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Jal

Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

What's about the parents of Alaska?

[fizban]

Hi,

I agree on the fact that it's hard to say something out of those two pictures.

I'm by no mean qualified to say anything but the fore legs look kinda weird (expecially the upper portion), and the mouth looks weird as well (a bit too much squareish?). I've never seen CsW looking like that, but I've seen "mixes" looking like that.

Again, I'm not really an expert, I've never seen my dog with my own eyes and it's hard to judge by those two pics.

Thanks again for the feedbacks

[fizban]

Again, I'm not really an expert, I've never seen my dog with my own eyes and it's hard to judge by those two pics.

Err.. I meant: "i've never seen that dog with my own eyes" (still sleepy)

I've obviously seen my OWN dog with my eyes

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Jal

Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

I saw similar dog.... one time.... but it was not purebreed CzW....

So I have two questions:

1) For me it was very strange that so well known italian breeder registered a litter of unknown female (there is no info about her pedigree)... Anybody know what was the reason for such risky thing?

2) From the side photo I see nice good body. But the head is "something else" - it is not very typical and the dog has "goggles" - you can not find them by CzW. But it is very often by Huskies, Malamutes and also Saarloos Wolfdogs....

[Pavel]

Shortly information from Czech republic :
Be very carefully. Czech Club just 2 years ago fefused illegaly experiment with Mutara hybrids. This dogs were illegaly registrated against all regulation of FCI and Chech kenel club. We know, that minimaly one of Mutara hybrid have had a puppies, but we are not inform, if this puppies were registrated or not (in CZ 100% not). Because are now very closely contacts between owners and supperters of Mutaras and some CsW breeders in France, Holland and Italy, is very propably, that they trying registering Mutaras puppies in this countries. Mutaras have nothing to do with our dogs and can only breaking the genetical potential of CsW. In last weeks and months shows some "CsW" in Italy and after question, who is the mother and father was answered, that its a "old czech bloodline". Is 90% propability, that its one of Mutaras or her puppies.
Its very sorry, but some people speaking only about our breed and only declare, how loves CsW. Illegaly registration of dogs and breeding on illegaly hybrids is crime and is against the FCI regulation. Me personally initiate the process to remove the breeding registration of such "breeders".

Be carefully and dont buy puppies from breeders (doesnt matter if famous or not), they dont credibly declare minimaly 3 generations of ancestors from puppies. In some suspicion can everybody contact czech or slovakian Club of CsW, where can inform about situation.

[Pavel]

And one appendix only :
Owners of Mutaras are Jindrich Jedlicka and Nada Sebkova. One of biggest supporter for Mutaras is Petr Malasek (one of best friends of Jedlicka). According the pages of Italian CsW Club, Malasek have now one female from kennel Passo del Lupo. I would like to see the paternity tests of this female and her parents, because here in CZ is a "public secret", that Malasek propably have puppy from Mutara ... Is in the game kennel Passo del Lupo as well ? Who is "Alaska" ? I dont want to blame somebody, but whoel story and today contacts are very very suprising.

[fizban]

Thank you very much for your informations and the "head up", Pavel. In a few hours I'll translate your posts in the italian portion of the forum so that everyone can read and hopefully this will result in clarifications, or some "cleaning" if needed.

[fizban]

Originally Posted by Pavel

And one appendix only :
Owners of Mutaras are Jindrich Jedlicka and Nada Sebkova.

Hi again.

Pavel, I didn't notice the additional coincidence, but some other Italian fellow did. Jindrich Jedlicka happens to be the judge of the latest italian bonitation as well. So he judged the mentioned dog (son of "Alaska") as well.

You say: "Me personally initiate the process to remove the breeding registration of such "breeders". "

Do you mean you are going to do so for this particular case? If so, what are you actually going to do - could you please explain?

Could you also suggest us (or better yet, the members of the italian club - I'm not one of them) what to do in order to get some clarification on this issue, or to promote official investigations? Also: how could we contact the czech or slovakian clubs?

Thanks

[fizban]

Well, I'm actually unsure about one of my statements. The name of the judge and the name you wrote are spelled different.. this judge is actually "Jedlièka Jindøich". Are we talking about the same person or it's just a case of similar name?

[Hanka]

Hello,when I have seen your fotos, My idea was: "it is some Mutara" . So, Pavel and I have the same idea .
The people from czech club know: it is not safe to buy some puppy from Italy. Sad....We never know, what we can have. Are parents of puppy in pedigree the same like real parents? Have they really X-ray result 0/0???
I heart from some italian breeders. "Don´t belive, what you can see in italian pedigrees. It is false, very often, italian breeding is only golden cover. But don´t know, what is under it".....
So, for us are wolfdogs from Italy "blind way".

[fizban]

Hello Hanka,

Well, "sad but true" (like the Metallica used to say) I guess

Without getting in the details (I'd rather avoid getting sued ), there are *a lot* of CsW owners (and breeders) totally unhappy about our national club.

Hopefully, for a reason or another, this situation will change at some point. Let's just hope it's not going to take forever: most of us are deeply in love with this breed, and it's unpleasant for owners and (the honest) breeders to know we (Italian) are seen in that way in the Czech republic

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Pavel

We know, that minimaly one of Mutara hybrid have had a puppies, but we are not inform, if this puppies were registrated or not (in CZ 100% not). Because are now very closely contacts between owners and supperters of Mutaras and some CsW breeders in France, Holland and Italy, is very propably, that they trying registering Mutaras puppies in this countries. Mutaras have nothing to do with our dogs and can only breaking the genetical potential of CsW. In last weeks and months shows some "CsW" in Italy and after question, who is the mother and father was answered, that its a "old czech bloodline". Is 90% propability, that its one of Mutaras or her puppies.

What is worrying me, is that saying this without having any real proof, might seriously injure the reputation on CSW´s worldwide. If this information, however it is so far just a rumour obviously, reaches the media or lay public, we can have a big problem. The media will not ask, who has something to do with possible introducing of hybrids into the breed, neither who is responsible. But they will be the first to point finger on CSW as dangerous dog, and it can cause all sorst of problems - banning the breed where it was not banned before, strict regulations, who knows, maybe even confiscations of dogs, who might seem to somebody dangerous.
Not to mention that for DEFRA or other organisation, this would be only a proof to be difficult with our breed.

[Wolfsirius]

Mirka; Very good text!
I am worried about ban in Finland, cause only one case in Finland (public) happened with a wolfdog (hybrid) where it attacks old lady (not badly) and after that ONLY ONE CASE goverment thinks to ban hybrids. As hybrids are banned, next will come "pure wolfdogbreeds" cause so called "history" and how breed had made is same for those goverment people; a dog and a wolf=wolfdog, no matter if is Csv, SWH or hybrid.
They are not interested if is real breed or not. And now in Finland had happened already so, that people who have hybrids, say to people who asking what kind of dog you have; "is ceskoslovensky vlcak or a saarloos" and this all because they are afraid that if people know they have hybrids, which soon will be banned, they have problems. And as these hybrids behave very badly (some of them do) all will be in the name of these 2 breed.

Again very worried; -Suski

[fizban]

Pavel,

FYI and use I've made some search on the ENCI website (the italian dog organization with registry and stuff) and it actually looks like Jedlicka Jindra ownes one of the puppies (selly, female) born from the lion pdl x alaska mating. All the puppies are owned (according to the official database) by the breeder himself, but selly and sam, owned by some other person (it's not in the list you gave us, so I'd rather not publish his complete name here. The initials are K.J.)

Since that data in public domain (the registry is online and avaiable for everyone) I don't think I'm doing anything wrong giving you that information.

Alaska has no known ancestors even on the ENCI database.

How does wolfdog.org work - can someone correct the Alaska entry on the db by adding all the puppies? I can give you the names if no one else is able to fetch those info for you from the ENCI website.

[fizban]

Also, can someone who understand czech can tell us something about this: http://www.cswolfdog.cz/content/view/456/44/

Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.

Thanks