Differences in bonitations...

[Mirkawolf]

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

[loco]

I have seen more dogs under the breed standard in the database .
And do have bonitation and claimed that they are breedable, and the bonitation was not in Poland .

Groette Martine.

[rocco]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

In Slovak 64 is OK for male.....sad but true.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Don't forget one of the last bonitations in Prague made by 2 famous CzW judges and 2 Czech breeding comittee members where there were 10 males and ALL of them get descritpion "wrong indexes", one get "open lips" and one "untypical movement". ALL THESE are dysqualification faults for Czw. Untypical movement is additionaly VERY serious one .. but... ALL of these dogs get from CZECH breeding comittee notes "EXCELLENT" or "VERY GOOD". Not even one was P14...
Is there a different standard for CSW in Czech Republic?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by rocco

In Slovak 64 is OK for male.....sad but true.

NO....in Slovakia...if the dogs under the standard couldn't be P1 or P3!
64 cm tall male is not a breeding male!! He is under the standard!

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Don't forget one of the last bonitations in Prague made by 2 famous CzW judges and 2 Czech breeding comittee members where there were 10 males and ALL of them get descritpion "wrong indexes", one get "open lips" and one "untypical movement". ALL THESE are dysqualification faults for Czw. Untypical movement is additionaly VERY serious one .. but... ALL of these dogs get from CZECH breeding comittee notes "EXCELLENT" or "VERY GOOD". Not even one was P14...
Is there a different standard for CSW in Czech Republic?

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.
To reply by commenting the wrong czech bonitations is not a reply, it's an attach.
Please open a new thread with Czech bonitation faults if necessary, but can you reply to the question? is 64cm allowed in Slovakia? it's important for our breed to know, don't you think? I don't care the name of the dog, really, he could be my own personal dog as it counts to me, but to know if 1cm tolerance is accepted during bonitation is important.
Is it possible, maybe, that this bonitation was not done according to slovak standards (JUST LIKE IN ITALY) so it gets a nice X like italian ones?
I see no index format on the Bonitation codes as was done in Hronec.
Either the dogs all had perfect codes or the new slovak bonitation rules were not applied in poland.
Another question to answer. Sorry we ask you Margo because you organized the event.
Great pics by the way, it's clear you all had fun (damn me, why couldn't I come... I miss Zubrowka!)
massimo

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Lol, can you tell me, which dogs with disqualifying faults I breed? I have one female 10 years old and spayed and other one P1 but with heavy dysplasia
I am not insane to breed on dogs with disqualifying faults!
The only thing I am breeding at home are mice, you can come and check them out

[Mikael]

Way do we have bonitation at all if we dont follow the same rules ???

and now to me it seams that a show resalt would say more...

on a show a dog whit "Untypical movement" or "Open libs" would not get a god spot, I hope !!!

But I do realy think 64cm is not the bigest question, to me it is more important that the dogs that we breed on are healthy.

Regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).
Something that I find quite sensible, as Mikael I think there are more important things than 1cm of heigh and I think bad movements for example are of much higher importance for the breed itself.
Another questions is if the dog should get a P3 or P5 then.

And I personally think it is more than time to stop the very stupid discussion if the Czech Club is doing things better or the Slovakian one. The same started in the health topic, the Slovakian Club has a breeding comission like the Czech has and the wonderful Czech breeding comission has made some decisions I only can wonder about. Both countries have their problems and have made their faults. I am really fed up with this, it is of absolutly no benefit for the breed.
And there was a Czech member in the breeding comission as far as I can see.

Ina

[Vaiva]

In fact I do not see such a big problem in that 1 cm If a male has a good character, is brave, nice with people, moves good and is a typical CsV, that 1 cm is nothing

[Mirkawolf]

My point is, for what are the bonitations good then, if the results are not respected, or cannot be compared. If I cannot compare results from Pozna to results from CR or Slovakia or Germany or wherever, because there had been some excuses or changes made on either side, what good does it do to bonitate? How do we ever convince new owners of wolfdogs to bonitate, if they see the results are being manipulated, excused or cheated?

If we do not follow the standard anymore, then where will the breed end up?
Who is going to decide, if 1 cm up or down matters? Or maybe a tooth missing, or other disqualifying faults? The standard has been made for some reason. And I find it very benevolent already.

There is only so much disqualifying faults and if they are not respected, then soon the wolfdogs won´t look like wolfdogs anymore. For the friends of miniature wolfdogs, I have bad news - there is already a small dog breed existing, that looks like little wolfdog - it´s called Swedish Vallhund. So no new breeding in this direction is needed.

Puppy Swedish Vallhund:

[massimo]

Vaiva, Ina.
I also agree that 1 cm should not change much in breeding.
My dog is 73cm and his father is P14... he is 64.5cm tall... 0.50cm below limit!
But this is not the point. I am not asking for opinions (I have my own), I'm asking for rules, facts.
Is 1 cm acceptable to give the dog a mark which is not P14 according to slovak breeding committee?
From what I knew it was ok for females (if below 60cm, it could be P5 if all the rest was ok) but for males it was strict.
But maybe i'm wrong, maybe this has changed!

I don't think that 1 cm will change much in the product the dog makes.
But...if the limiti is 65cm, he could get P14 and the breeding committe could decide, for certain females, if it is worth using that dog anyway.
It is not new that many czechs using males from other countries without bonitation because it is not a requirement in the country of origin.
From what I know it is not a requirement in ANY other country than Czech and Slovakia...so why should people bother to bonitate their dog after all?....
Why should stupid Italians bonitate their dogs if anyway somebody has decided that bonitation in Italy is not valid...
Better a dog from another country without bonitation than a dog from Italy with bonitation made by somebody's public enemy...
Why? because of the character test. But character test I saw in Slovakia was, according to my eyes (now personal opinion) less effective than the one made in Italy...
I'm fed up with this long time ago Ina...
massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I don´t want to start here with Charactertests it will bring us very much off topic. But maybe the owner or the breeder of the dog or the breeding comission can explain why they decided to give it a P3.

Charactertest will bring us totally of topic because then we will have to discuss the difficulties in doing it with defense trained dogs and not defense trained ones and using both behaviour in messurement and in the test itself. I have seen both versions and for me as a behavourist the so called "real threatening" in the Czech version is a normal training situation for the trained dog, knowing how most of the dogs are trained, nothing to do with a threat. In the Czech bonitation I saw, there have been dogs that were so fear aggressiv that they could only be meassured of the owner and hat to be muzzeld still. They got good results in the Charactertest because they attacked like hell being threatened of a known figurant in training dress with a training stick having learned that is the most sensible thing to do.
Our dog reacting absolutely cool all the time but not reacting on the threat at all because being trained to do so since his whole life, got a less courage, not being afraid for one second. For me, knowing about learning theories, this has not been a charactertest of any use but simply a selection on fear aggression.
This is the real problem in bonitation, not 1 cm that show up in the bonitation code and are visible for everybody, together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason.

But I don´t see any sense in not doing a bonitation just because it isn´t perfect. For me it still is at least some information about the dog for all people knowing about it. And a sign of a breeder that at least tries to follow some rules.
And I too have my problems with bonitations like some Swizz ones where dogs with a code full of several severe mistakes got P1, I think it is correct not to accept these bonitations.

Ina

[Dharkwolf]

You know, some time ago this would have made me angry. Now it just makes me wonder.

Here in Belgium the club is trying very hard to get together a simple way of getting a good breeding standard so as to ensure the breed does well and does not degenerate. This is not as simple as it sounds - there are a lot of things which need to be explained and there is clearly a transition which needs to be done to get to a point where breeding is of the highest quality.

One of the things which I have personally learned through watching the process of discussing all these breeding rules is that you need to be open to criticism and to be ready to answer the questions from people - why are things done like this and not like that? Why is this a good dog and not that one?

The questions are not always easy to answer, and sometimes you realise that a mistake has been made, by you or by someone else. When that happens it's best to accept it, correct it if possible, and then move on.

Here we ask a very simple question - why was a certain dog with qualities which seem strange get a certain bonitation code. There might be a perfectly good explanation for it - but an agressive response does not help to advance things. It could be that a mistake was made somewhere or that the bonitation committee decided for whatever reasons to give that code. The reason doesn't matter, but the agressive response that a simple question has received has made me very sad - because it doesn't help anything or anyone.

One has to remember where these things come from. There is the bonitation yes, which is an evaluation against the properties of the standard. Though there are probably different ways of actually doing a bonitation there is only one standard it is the FCI standard and it clearly states:

SIZE AND WEIGHT :
Height at withers : Dogs at least 65 cm,
Bitches at least 60 cm.
Weight : Dogs at least 26 kg,
Bitches at least 20 kg.

So the question of why a dog which fails to comply with the criteria which are clearly defined in the standard is judged to be excellent for breeding (that is what P1 means) is not an unfair one and deserves a simple answer. Could we please have one?

There is the question of how important is really the height for breeding. You need to understand that the height of an animal (or person) is, genetically speaking, a very complex trait. There are at least 20 genes which are known to influence height in humans (and everything indicates at least as many in dogs). The genetic complexity of the height, along with the ease of measuring the phenotype (that is the actual height of the dog) makes it an excellent marker to see if a dog is conforming to everything else it should conform to according to its ancestry. Therefore the question of height is important because it's an easy and obvious way of knowing if the breeding stock is drifting significantly from a genetic point of view from the intended breed characteristics which cannot be so easily measured.


I know it's a little distasteful, but I would need to go back to this point:

Originally Posted by Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

This is a very strong personal attack against the integrity of a breeder Margo. In our case (for those of you who don't know it, Mirka is my wife) it should not be difficult to check - we've owned only two females and there has only been a single litter from our elder female. She's Cira Křivoklátský Atos (link to the wolfdog database: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/543) and her bonitation code is A66,5 E3 K1 M5 Oi R1 P5 - not the prettiest of codes, but certainly not one with disqualifying faults. You have met the dog on several occasions Margo so if you could please explain which disqualifying faults you are referring to I would be very interested. If it was simply anger and frustration speaking (which happens) a simple retraction of the statement would also be most welcome.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before.... I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel... And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

At the moment we have huge disscusion about this topic on polish forum which Mirka can easily follow but you know... polish forum is not easy to understand for everyone so she started the same topic here to have more public... But no problem - I can disscuss the same things on two forums simultaneously....

But now I leave personal attacks - if someone has any problem with me it is his/her private problem... I go back to the facts - I will try to answer some questions but I don't think I will be able to answer all of them already today.... So next parts will follow later...

[Gaga]

The question why the result is P1 not P14 is a question to the committee. Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

[Mirkawolf]

I have asked this question here, because exactly the same question was asked on that very Polish forum, that Margo mentions, by Hanka Kaufmanova. And surprisingly , her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again.
I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding? What a paranoid thinking...

[Dharkwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before.... I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel... And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

Margo this assumption is unsubstantiated and obviously not what was intended.

1) Neither the name of the dog nor of the kennel were mentioned (which would obviously would have been the case if the intention was to attack your kennel.

2) Anyone who knows Mirka knows she never holds her tongue. If she had intended to attack a kennel and the breeding practices it would have been very clearly stated as such.

It is sad to see that the level of paranoia on these forums stops people from talking about the dogs, the bonitations and the problems which arise from them.

Margo you have still not formally withdrawn the accusation which you have levelled against the kennel Vlci Sen. I will ask again - either withdraw or substantiate your accusation.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

And surprisingly , her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again.
I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding? What a paranoid thinking...

Dear Mirka - before you write something please LOOK on the polish forum twice. NOBODY removed ANYTHING. Your words are EXACTLY "a paranoid thinking..."

[Margo]

(Gaga made good suggestion what to do if someone is interested for Daimon. My answer will be in generally)

FIRST I want to make small introduction:
The whole thing is not only about the one dog (even if for some people it is good reason for personal attacks) but about the old story about the different type of judgements by the bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic...

It is the old war which Ina mentioned - who is right, who makes the bonitations better...
But it is also an answer for Ina's words "together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason."
Why the faults are not written in the code? What are the reasons? Exactly because of the different way of judging...

HOW should look the bonitation...?
On the bonitation card the judge should write the size of the dog, judge its character and make the measurements. If a dog has any faults it should be written to the bonitation code (if the fault is good visible) or into the "notes" (if the fault is there but it is small (slight)). After it there should be judgement based on the indexes (proportions), and number and "size" of faults. That's the theory...

...BUT...

On the Slovak bonitation the jugde base the bonitation code end note on all the parts... (bonitation code + weight of the faults + their number + character test + indexes).

For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight...

In Czech Republic counts ONLY what has been written in the bonitation code (faults and character test). And there are many things which will disqualify a dog. On the other hand it doesn't matter if the dog has wrong indexes and it doesn't count what has beeen written in the "notes".... (see the case I already mentioned)


How it works...?
Let's take the serious fault which according to the Hartl's words disqualify a dog and makes him P14 - I mean "open lips" - code D12. And an theoretical example...

In Slovakia dog with open lips will be judged like this:
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation code will be As Of P3 (bonitation code 'excellent' but because of the 'open lips' written in the notes the dog has the end note "very good").
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation will be As D12 Of P5 (bonitation code "good" because of the serious fault).
So the dog can be P3 (very good) or P5 (good).

Let see the same case in Czech Republic.
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... Here the bonitation will be much better than in Slovakia As Of P1 (bonitation code 'excellent' and also the end note "excellent" because nobody cares for this what is written in the notes).
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... The bonitation SHOULD be As D12 Of P14 (bonitation code "disqualification" because it is so there). So what the breeding comittee will make? The SERIOUS fault will be NOT written to the code because nobody want to throw away this dog from breeding - breeding comittee will write it in to the notes and forget it... Such dog with REALLY SERIOUS problem will have the bonitation code As Of P1.
The same dog will be here P1 (excellent).

Ina, you asked why SERIOUS faults like you mentioned are not in the bonitation code. Exactly because of this: every of these fault will result with P5 (note "good") or P14 ("disqualification"). And because the Czech breeding comittee must keep to their own rules they will do everything in order "not to break dogs career" and hide the faults so they have no influence on the end note. They will hide everything in the "notes" or forget the faults exist...

The same is with size of the dogs... If the dog is a little bit smaller but perfect at all the slovak judge can still give the good note. So you can see some dogs which are 64 cm but still P3 or P5.
But the Czech comittee must follow their rules and give P14 to such dog. What they do in such case? They will ADD an 1 cm and write A65.... or even 66cm because it looks better... (everybody knows such cases).
The result? Dog with 64 cm in Slovakia has breeding rights but "only" the note "very good". In Czech Republic the same dog will appear with the 65-66cm and note EXCELLENT....
So which bonitation is more strict?

Now the question is what is better?
When the bonitation comittee writes all found faults into the bonitation code (like it is in Slovakia) because good dog will still have the right to be stud dog.
Or it is better that the bonitation comittee hides more serious faults because if they appear in the bonitation code the dog MUST get P14...?