Forming a breed club in the US

GalomyOak · 04-08-2008, 04:46

Hello,

I am part of a group of owners in the US that is attempting to create a national breed club for the CSV. Obviously, this has it's difficulties - because of the widespread geography of our country, and because there are not many owners here. All the same, we are very excited, and want to make certain that we have an excellent beginning and foundation.

We would like the opinion, and assistance, if possible, of clubs in other countries (but especially Slovakia, and the Czech Republic) on what is important for a club, and also to eventually read some documents that we will write for the club to check for accuracy. Unfortunately, I am not quite certain of the email contacts for either club - could somebody provide me with that information?

Also, if there is anyone from outside (or of course, inside) the US that would be interested in joining our email list about the future club, please PM me, and I will add you on. We are very thankful for any help or thoughts that are offered!

Marcy Goldstone

Pavel · 04-08-2008, 07:34

Hi Marcy,
I think, that through forum, you dont get any oficial answer from clubs. Simpliest way is send a email of mail to both clubs with your questions and wishes.

GalomyOak · 04-08-2008, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Hi Marcy,
I think, that through forum, you dont get any oficial answer from clubs. Simpliest way is send a email of mail to both clubs with your questions and wishes.

Thanks Pavel! That was part of my question - who is the best person to contact from the clubs - and what is the email for these people?

I have a friend who speaks Slovakian, and I can read French fairly well, but I don't consider myself to be very good at speaking any language other than English...

GalomyOak · 04-08-2008, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

Thanks Pavel! That was part of my question - who is the best person to contact from the clubs - and what is the email for these people?

I think I may have answered at least part of my own question while I was browsing another thread. Is [email protected] the correct address for what we need?

Pavel · 04-08-2008, 20:27

Yes slovakian contact is correct and contact to leader of CZ Club is [email protected]

PRoth1RN · 03-02-2009, 20:07

Hi marcy. I don't have any answers for you but when you are ready to sell any of your CZW pups I am very interested in acquiring one as a pet. I recently had to have my shepard/wolf dog put down and I really miss her. We had a great relationship and i think I can have a another relationship lke that with another wolf dog. Peter Roth

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

I think I may have answered at least part of my own question while I was browsing another thread. Is [email protected] the correct address for what we need?

saschia · 03-02-2009, 21:37

Hi Marcy, I am the official contact for the Slovak club, you can write me at info @ csv . sk (that's the official one), or at saschia @ wolfdog . org (that one I use and check more often). Sorry for the format but I hate spam from robots.

And congratulations for making a club, I hope you will be succesfull.

GalomyOak · 04-02-2009, 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

Hi Marcy, I am the official contact for the Slovak club, you can write me at info @ csv . sk (that's the official one), or at saschia @ wolfdog . org (that one I use and check more often). Sorry for the format but I hate spam from robots.

And congratulations for making a club, I hope you will be succesfull.

Thanks Saschia (and Pavel, from earlier)!

Right now, I think the club "concept" is on hold, at least for a little while. It is very difficult to pull just a few people together from such a large geographic area to do the normal "official business" of a club. It was also a big loss with the passing of John Slawek earlier...

I do communicate with the other owners here though, and it is very nice to have a network in the US, even if it is not a club yet. I think with time, a club will evolve - it will be very necessary to maintain good breeding policies, and also provide a place for education and support for all CSV owners here. So, for now, I am just trying to learn as much as I can on my own - in the US with my own dogs, and the internet, and also in Europe. I reallllly look forward to seeing a bonitation and and some other events (conformation and working) in the home countries not too far from now!For sure, when the wonderful day arrives when we do have a club in the US, I hope to maintain very close contact with both the Slovakian club and Czech club.

All of the best,
Marcy

Rona · 04-02-2009, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

So, for now, I am just trying to learn as much as I can on my own - in the US with my own dogs, and the internet, and also in Europe. I reallllly look forward to seeing a bonitation and and some other events (conformation and working) in the home countries not too far from now!For sure, when the wonderful day arrives when we do have a club in the US, I hope to maintain very close contact with both the Slovakian club and Czech club.

Hi Marcy, I'm really impressed by your attitude and approach to breeding CSVs in the USA...

If people like you - responsible, ethical and willing to learn from experts get involved in developing the breed in America, if the owners manage to build a network of enthusiasts and gain solid competence BEFORE they start breeding, I'm sure CSVs will be in good hands and have better prospects than in another "non-European country"

I honestly appreaciate your transparent plans and clear policies and offer my support however limited it may be.

Anyway, see you soon in Krakow

Rona

GalomyOak · 07-02-2009, 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Hi Marcy, I'm really impressed by your attitude and approach to breeding CSVs in the USA...

If people like you - responsible, ethical and willing to learn from experts get involved in developing the breed in America, if the owners manage to build a network of enthusiasts and gain solid competence BEFORE they start breeding, I'm sure CSVs will be in good hands and have better prospects than in another "non-European country"

I honestly appreaciate your transparent plans and clear policies and offer my support however limited it may be.

Anyway, see you soon in Krakow

Rona

Thanks! I really can't wait until April! I think it will be so much more fun to talk in person!

I think it will take a lot of effort before the breed is considered "developed" here, and hopefully, lots of years - we have a saying here: "You must wait for all good things". There is no rush; if somebody in the US is really determined to buy a CSV, they can buy one in Europe - so there is no need here to breed for the overall good of the CSV, especially with our limited bloodlines, no experienced judges of the breed, and no bonitations...that means there is a nice freedom here only to breed if conditions are just right - perfect new families lined up, good health, good characters, interesting match with good genetic diversity, good exterior, working titles obtained, etc.

Do widzenia (I think

), Rona!

Marcy

solowolf · 08-02-2009, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Hi Marcy, I'm really impressed by your attitude and approach to breeding CSVs in the USA...

If people like you - responsible, ethical and willing to learn from experts get involved in developing the breed in America, if the owners manage to build a network of enthusiasts and gain solid competence BEFORE they start breeding, I'm sure CSVs will be in good hands and have better prospects than in another "non-European country"

I honestly appreaciate your transparent plans and clear policies and offer my support however limited it may be.

Anyway, see you soon in Krakow

Rona

hi, so are you going to tell us the name of the non European country ? funny all your emails have to have a pop at someone or another country, so please Rona inlighten us all to which non European country you talk about and why? regards pacino eagerly awaiting your reply as i am sure many others are as well.....

Rona · 08-02-2009, 02:16

I've always thought UK was geographically part of Europe and politically a member of European Union... was I mistaken?

GalomyOak · 04-12-2009, 02:30

So, finally, I think we will have a website for our very informal "club" - but, hopefully something we can grow and move forward from.

I am asking for the help of the wolfdog community...

1. What would be some useful links to add to our site? For instance: CSV clubs from different countries, links to online European registration databases, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of links I have not stumbled upon - and, they do not need to be in English.

2. Is there anyone that would be willing to share some photos for a gallery (with credit given to the photographer, of course)? I think it would be especially to useful to have some photos of very correct conformation, working photos, bonitations, etc. My biggest goal with these photos is to open the eyes of newcomers to the wonderful possibilities, versatility, dedication and hard work of breeders up to this point, and of course, the beauty of our breed. Photos can be sent to: [email protected]

Thank you in advance!

Marcy

draggar · 21-02-2010, 02:38

I know this thread is almost a year old but you have our support, Marcy.

yukidomari · 19-03-2010, 18:04

Marcy,

I hope that if a breed club is established, it will be one of the stricter breed clubs out there. There is a huge variety of breed clubs, standards, bylaws, and who they will or will not list as breeders on their site.. I think the stricter ones like the French Bulldog club (in the US, breeders will not appear on referral or list if they have not been with the club for at least 3 years and have not bred at least 1 dog to have titled CH.)

Then there are clubs that seem like just about anything goes. Not a whole lot of clubs mandate relevant health testing.. it's all just pretty much 'research your breeder and even if these breeders appear on our list, we do not explicitly endorse them' type deals.

Personally, I would like very much to see a club that requires at the least the mandatory relevant health testing of breeding dogs in order to be listed, as well as minimum ages to be bred. One of our dogs' breed club requires new owners to submit their dog to their database after an examination at 15 months by a vet.. information like size, health problems that have appeared, etc etc are recorded there.

It seems very similar to a bonitation and the database available here and I hope that the future CSV club of america will have something similar.

draggar · 19-03-2010, 18:13

Good points, Yukidomari.

I think the international vlcak community would like to see every dog FCI certified (hips) before breeding. I'm also thinking CERF (I think it's an eye?) tested also.

Maybe we could also look at the Sieger standard with GSDs - only dogs with working and show titles will be on the referral list. Here in the US you can easily tell working lines from show lines (this is very obvious in malinois). What working titles will have to be worked out. It is fairly easy for any dog to get a CGC and if it gets the CGC then it's only one more step to get a BH. Maybe SchH1 or obedience titles?

yukidomari · 19-03-2010, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar

Good points, Yukidomari.

I think the international vlcak community would like to see every dog FCI certified (hips) before breeding. I'm also thinking CERF (I think it's an eye?) tested also.

Maybe we could also look at the Sieger standard with GSDs - only dogs with working and show titles will be on the referral list. Here in the US you can easily tell working lines from show lines (this is very obvious in malinois). What working titles will have to be worked out. It is fairly easy for any dog to get a CGC and if it gets the CGC then it's only one more step to get a BH. Maybe SchH1 or obedience titles?

Hips/elbows and CERF sounds like a good start!

Sieger standards of Germany? Well it's easy to tell GSD from West German show lines, even if they require SchH titles.. SchH is a sport.. a dog could certainly pass SchH1 and not be able to be put under any real working situation. Course, it's also easy to tell which is American, and which are DDR as well.. It's all a big controversy, of course, I'm not criticizing one way or the other.. many, MANY people criticize American standard GSDs, but a large number of people also criticize West German show GSDs, even if they have a SchH title..

I agree that something needs to be there, more than just a conformation CH. like can be permissible for companions or toy dogs, but above that, well, it's so very tricky. I wish that there really wasn't a need for titles, that people could just evaluate their dog fairly and honestly, like how many landrace breeds came to be, but it appears in this day and age, without titles, 99.999% of the time you're just looking at a breeder who is kennel-blind.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 19-03-2010, 18:39

The German "Working" Shepherd lines are a good example that sport exams of the old type like SchH etc. don´t help much, in this special case looking at character they made things worse.
The German Police and Border Patrol often buys dogs out of other countries or changed to Mallinois beacause the German dogs often are not usable because of health and character.
By breeding for easy obidience and high prey instinct they got extremly excitable (in the meaning of too aroused) dogs that are too nervous for real work (in the sense of work not sport) and switch in emotions very quickly what makes many of them not reliable. And many of them are in no way healthier than the show lines. The lines of Eastern Germany were the old type of good working dogs that also were healthier but mostly got mixed up with the Western Germany type and are very hard to find nowadays.

Ina

draggar · 19-03-2010, 19:53

Don't forget in Sieger shows it is required to keep the dog at a trot for a while (I don't know exactly how long but I think more people can't do it for being out of shape).

SchH1 isn't that easy to obtain (and I only used that as an example) but holds true to the vlcak's reason for existence - tracking, protection, and obedience. (Too bad the SchH2 and SchH3 trials are very similar to the 1). I think we should start looking into schutzhund with our vlcaks (hell, they are descendants of working line GSDs - and the Czech Republic / Czechoslovakia made some of the best working line GSDs).

As for real working - what should be considered real working? I am sure most SchH3 dogs don't do much of the schutzhund work outside of the field (except obedience). I don't think the CsV was created to herd but if it's going to be in the herding group, then maybe we should also look into that.

Making the "official" breed club - I've gotten no response from the ABLA (American Belgian Laekenois Assoc) so I've asked Fred Lanting to reach out to the Shiloh Shepherd community to find out what they did to form the "official" club - as well as any costs that were associated with the formation and annual costs. While I understand that money can be tight with the members at this time, I'd hate to see someone else come in and form the club without the community's (or breed's) best interests in mind. Next thing we know we could have a commercial breeder breeding anything and calling it a vlcak.

I think the club should continue to be called the "Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America" (CsVCA) and continue to use Marcy's site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

As the club's site. To keep cybersquatters away, I did register czechoslovakianvlcak.com and csvca.org and pointed them to Marcy's site. (.com is sill king - most people will type that in and .org because it suits an "organization" and people will type that in). I also added her site on the Wikipedia page on vlcaks.

Sadly, though, when you type VLCAK into Google, some of the top sites that come up still call them wolf hybrids. We need to get those pushed down in the rankings so people can see the truth.

Edit: I see the APRI, ACR, and DRA all recognize the vlcak as a breed - let's try to stay away from these registries and *not* accept them for AKC registration (if we have a choice).

19-03-2010, 23:37

I'm going to preface this with my standard, "I don't own a CsV yet, so I can't rate from experience, but..."

I personally think a better test of historical CsV character would be to focus on obedience, tracking, and endurance (if there even is such a thing here!) rather than Schutzhund (although, I would see that as still being perfectly acceptable in regards to registry with the CsVCA). I think AKC tracking is more in line with what the CsV was originally bred for than the tracking in Schutzhund. AKC tracking is looser, giving the dog more freedom to do its job in its own way as opposed to having to follow strict rules when tracking. I think it would be a shame to lose the CsV's inherent independent thought when it comes to work because a more biddable dog is favored because it scores high as opposed to a dog that may be too smart for the sport & apt to take shortcuts because it has the proper temperament.

I also think that there should be an exception for actual working dogs, even if there isn't a title involved. CsVs show a LOT of promise as search & rescue dogs (which is what I'd love to do), airport checks/security, police work, etc, and we of course can't discount the dogs that are ACTUALLY going out & doing a job every day!

04-08-2008, 04:46	#1
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Forming a breed club in the US Hello, I am part of a group of owners in the US that is attempting to create a national breed club for the CSV. Obviously, this has it's difficulties - because of the widespread geography of our country, and because there are not many owners here. All the same, we are very excited, and want to make certain that we have an excellent beginning and foundation. We would like the opinion, and assistance, if possible, of clubs in other countries (but especially Slovakia, and the Czech Republic) on what is important for a club, and also to eventually read some documents that we will write for the club to check for accuracy. Unfortunately, I am not quite certain of the email contacts for either club - could somebody provide me with that information? Also, if there is anyone from outside (or of course, inside) the US that would be interested in joining our email list about the future club, please PM me, and I will add you on. We are very thankful for any help or thoughts that are offered! Marcy Goldstone

03-02-2009, 21:37	#7
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Hi Marcy, I am the official contact for the Slovak club, you can write me at info @ csv . sk (that's the official one), or at saschia @ wolfdog . org (that one I use and check more often). Sorry for the format but I hate spam from robots. And congratulations for making a club, I hope you will be succesfull. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

08-02-2009, 02:16	#12
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I've always thought UK was geographically part of Europe and politically a member of European Union... was I mistaken? __________________ Last edited by Rona; 08-02-2009 at 18:21.

04-12-2009, 02:30	#13
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	So, finally, I think we will have a website for our very informal "club" - but, hopefully something we can grow and move forward from. I am asking for the help of the wolfdog community... 1. What would be some useful links to add to our site? For instance: CSV clubs from different countries, links to online European registration databases, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of links I have not stumbled upon - and, they do not need to be in English. 2. Is there anyone that would be willing to share some photos for a gallery (with credit given to the photographer, of course)? I think it would be especially to useful to have some photos of very correct conformation, working photos, bonitations, etc. My biggest goal with these photos is to open the eyes of newcomers to the wonderful possibilities, versatility, dedication and hard work of breeders up to this point, and of course, the beauty of our breed. Photos can be sent to: [email protected] Thank you in advance! Marcy __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

21-02-2010, 02:38	#14
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	I know this thread is almost a year old but you have our support, Marcy. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

04-08-2008, 07:34	#2
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Hi Marcy, I think, that through forum, you dont get any oficial answer from clubs. Simpliest way is send a email of mail to both clubs with your questions and wishes.

04-08-2008, 20:27	#5
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Yes slovakian contact is correct and contact to leader of CZ Club is [email protected]

19-03-2010, 18:04	#15
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Marcy, I hope that if a breed club is established, it will be one of the stricter breed clubs out there. There is a huge variety of breed clubs, standards, bylaws, and who they will or will not list as breeders on their site.. I think the stricter ones like the French Bulldog club (in the US, breeders will not appear on referral or list if they have not been with the club for at least 3 years and have not bred at least 1 dog to have titled CH.) Then there are clubs that seem like just about anything goes. Not a whole lot of clubs mandate relevant health testing.. it's all just pretty much 'research your breeder and even if these breeders appear on our list, we do not explicitly endorse them' type deals. Personally, I would like very much to see a club that requires at the least the mandatory relevant health testing of breeding dogs in order to be listed, as well as minimum ages to be bred. One of our dogs' breed club requires new owners to submit their dog to their database after an examination at 15 months by a vet.. information like size, health problems that have appeared, etc etc are recorded there. It seems very similar to a bonitation and the database available here and I hope that the future CSV club of america will have something similar.

19-03-2010, 18:13	#16
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	Good points, Yukidomari. I think the international vlcak community would like to see every dog FCI certified (hips) before breeding. I'm also thinking CERF (I think it's an eye?) tested also. Maybe we could also look at the Sieger standard with GSDs - only dogs with working and show titles will be on the referral list. Here in the US you can easily tell working lines from show lines (this is very obvious in malinois). What working titles will have to be worked out. It is fairly easy for any dog to get a CGC and if it gets the CGC then it's only one more step to get a BH. Maybe SchH1 or obedience titles? __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

19-03-2010, 18:39	#18
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	The German "Working" Shepherd lines are a good example that sport exams of the old type like SchH etc. don´t help much, in this special case looking at character they made things worse. The German Police and Border Patrol often buys dogs out of other countries or changed to Mallinois beacause the German dogs often are not usable because of health and character. By breeding for easy obidience and high prey instinct they got extremly excitable (in the meaning of too aroused) dogs that are too nervous for real work (in the sense of work not sport) and switch in emotions very quickly what makes many of them not reliable. And many of them are in no way healthier than the show lines. The lines of Eastern Germany were the old type of good working dogs that also were healthier but mostly got mixed up with the Western Germany type and are very hard to find nowadays. Ina

19-03-2010, 19:53	#19
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	Don't forget in Sieger shows it is required to keep the dog at a trot for a while (I don't know exactly how long but I think more people can't do it for being out of shape). SchH1 isn't that easy to obtain (and I only used that as an example) but holds true to the vlcak's reason for existence - tracking, protection, and obedience. (Too bad the SchH2 and SchH3 trials are very similar to the 1). I think we should start looking into schutzhund with our vlcaks (hell, they are descendants of working line GSDs - and the Czech Republic / Czechoslovakia made some of the best working line GSDs). As for real working - what should be considered real working? I am sure most SchH3 dogs don't do much of the schutzhund work outside of the field (except obedience). I don't think the CsV was created to herd but if it's going to be in the herding group, then maybe we should also look into that. Making the "official" breed club - I've gotten no response from the ABLA (American Belgian Laekenois Assoc) so I've asked Fred Lanting to reach out to the Shiloh Shepherd community to find out what they did to form the "official" club - as well as any costs that were associated with the formation and annual costs. While I understand that money can be tight with the members at this time, I'd hate to see someone else come in and form the club without the community's (or breed's) best interests in mind. Next thing we know we could have a commercial breeder breeding anything and calling it a vlcak. I think the club should continue to be called the "Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America" (CsVCA) and continue to use Marcy's site: http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/ As the club's site. To keep cybersquatters away, I did register czechoslovakianvlcak.com and csvca.org and pointed them to Marcy's site. (.com is sill king - most people will type that in and .org because it suits an "organization" and people will type that in). I also added her site on the Wikipedia page on vlcaks. Sadly, though, when you type VLCAK into Google, some of the top sites that come up still call them wolf hybrids. We need to get those pushed down in the rankings so people can see the truth. Edit: I see the APRI, ACR, and DRA all recognize the vlcak as a breed - let's try to stay away from these registries and not accept them for AKC registration (if we have a choice). __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors Last edited by draggar; 19-03-2010 at 22:07.

19-03-2010, 23:37	#20
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I'm going to preface this with my standard, "I don't own a CsV yet, so I can't rate from experience, but..." I personally think a better test of historical CsV character would be to focus on obedience, tracking, and endurance (if there even is such a thing here!) rather than Schutzhund (although, I would see that as still being perfectly acceptable in regards to registry with the CsVCA). I think AKC tracking is more in line with what the CsV was originally bred for than the tracking in Schutzhund. AKC tracking is looser, giving the dog more freedom to do its job in its own way as opposed to having to follow strict rules when tracking. I think it would be a shame to lose the CsV's inherent independent thought when it comes to work because a more biddable dog is favored because it scores high as opposed to a dog that may be too smart for the sport & apt to take shortcuts because it has the proper temperament. I also think that there should be an exception for actual working dogs, even if there isn't a title involved. CsVs show a LOT of promise as search & rescue dogs (which is what I'd love to do), airport checks/security, police work, etc, and we of course can't discount the dogs that are ACTUALLY going out & doing a job every day!