what about rawfeeding?

taro · 14-02-2005, 04:51

Hello everyone. Within the last days I've been reading a lot about rawfeeding ( there's a big article in the French forum) and I find it really interesting. I would like to know if any of you practises it with their dog and how the experience is.

Mirkawolf · 14-02-2005, 13:26

I understand that "rawfeeding" means feeding the wolfdog raw meat? That´s what I am feeding both my wolfdogs normally all the time. I am not having any problems and I must say, both dogs look better than if they were eating dry food ..
Cira, my older female, came home and was as a puppy already used from the breeder to eat raw meat. So we continued on that, she was getting raw beef and chicken meat, chicken necks, stomachs and hearts, also beef hearts and various other stuff. Plus milk, yoghurt, cottage cheese, eggs. I tried offering her also pasta, oatmeal or rice to mix with the meat, but she always managed to eat only the meat and leave the rest. If she got minced meat with rice, she decided not to eat at all..

When she was more than six months old, I tried to move her on dry food, but it was not working. No matter which brands I tried, she did not eat and if she ate, then only a small amount to keep her alive. After some weeks, she looked slim, you could count all her ribs, her coat was not shiny etc. She was full of energy, no doubt, but it was clear the dry food is not the best. We returned back to meat and again within a few weeks, you could see the difference. She gained some weight, got a thick nice shiny coat and started to look like a very nice dog.
So I have no doubts, what is the best to feed my wolfdogs!

Ali, my new puppy, came from the breeder used to eat dry food. However, we soon introduced her to normal food. First it was boiled chicken meat (cause she never saw raw meat and did not like it) with rice, later she was getting another cooked meat - chicken, beef, calf, also hearts and stomachs, tripes, liver, all cooked for the beginning. Plus lots of cheese, eggs. She did not like milk or milky products. Now, when Ali is almost 4 months, she eats most of the meat raw, including the hearts and such things. Her coat is shiny, she is growing well, she is full of energy and looks all fine.

To both dogs, I am supplying the minerals by giving "Vitaplastin" tablets. That´s Czech product however, but I am sure in your country you will find something similar.

Mirka

taro · 14-02-2005, 17:26

I agree with you MIrka. My puppy is 3 months old and by the moment I'm feeding him high quality dry food, although I sometimes give him raw meat, dried pig ears, etc. and of course he loves it. I'm seriously thinking of starting with rawfeeding. If you are interested I show you some of the links I've seen in the French forum. I've found them very useful:
http://www.barf.ch/accueil.htm
http://www.rawfed.com

Koos · 14-02-2005, 18:33

Hello,

If you can read the German language, there is also the discussion about raw food. It also the second time that this point is into the picture.

Maybe you can have more information there,

greetings,

Letty

taro · 14-02-2005, 21:58

It's a shame, but I can't read German. Thank you anyway

Nebelwölfe · 07-04-2005, 15:07

Hi taro

I feed my dogs (2 German shepherds and 1 wolfdog) with raw meat now since 1 1/2 years now and I am very convinced about it. I think its great and healthy for the dogs. They love this kind of food of course - and every day they almost get crazy, when I prepare the food, every time they behave as if they haven't gotten any food for weeks. And you can see the difference not only in a shiny coat and healthy dog - but also in the excremet, which is much more smaller because they can dispose this kind of food much more better and more sufficient.

I feed them with meat, heart, gorge, first stomache, liver, kidney from cow - which I get directly from the slaughterhouse, but also with parts of or whole chicken, turkey, lamb or fish (all also inclusive bones). Besides that I often (but not every time) add pasta, rice or cooked (!!) potatoes - sometimes but not very often cereals - and all kinds vegetables (mashed if freshly). They get raw eggs, dairy products like cottage cheese or curd, and they eat fruits like apples, cherries, plums, bananas, and so on. They
I add supplements like herbs and minerals as well as different kinds of oils (from olives, thistles, sunflowers and so on). And they eat it all up!

I started feeding them with raw meat right away, from one day to the other. At the beginning I was just little cautious with the bones. You can do it different ways, but do not mix it with dry food!

When I travel, I take along dry food for convenience - and feed it. No problems so long. But what I heard is, that you should breed wolfdogs whith dry food from time to time anyways - otherwise you might have problems some day, because they won't eat it any more (see what Mirka wrote). My luck is, that my wolfdog is such a glutton, he eats everything with delight (especially if he can nick it

) - even things my other dogs don't eat!!

Once a year I get a blood test done to check the blood parameters (?) and see, if the feeding is balanced and nothing is missing.

Have also a look here:

http://www.barfers.com
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

Regards, Petra

cpw · 07-04-2005, 23:28

About Raw feeding. Everything you need to know about raw feeding can be learned at this site and through the sites linked to it.
www.rawfeddogs.net
charles in USA

ligerwolve · 08-04-2005, 05:14

I dont know if this is of any interest but I thought anyone who uses dry food should know. If you feed your dog dry kibble you can be over feeding because it swells when moisture is absorbed in the stomach, making the animal bloated. I feed my dogs a little soaked kibble with something like raw meat, yogurt, fish and occasionally substitute witha nice meaty bone instead. I used to feed my oldest tinned food and kibble and she didnt seem that healthy (not to mention hyperactive). Then one day I had to leave her alone with my mum and her dogs while I went away. Now my mum is a cake decorator and has a lot of left over cake which she decided to give to the dogs. well when i got back i was so shocked by the amount of weight she had gained. So i spoke to some breeders and they have kept me up to date on nutrition. (she looks much better now) Any way I dont think a little high quality (no added colours or flavours) kibble is wrong as long as it's soaked.

Zoli · 11-04-2005, 23:49

Attention!

You never should give raw pork to dogs or cats. It is possible that the pig had Aujeszky's disease, and this is always mortal to carnivores (dogs, wolves, cats). It is quite similar to rabies, but fortunately humans cannot be infected.

I also give raw chicken to my wolfdog, but never pork.

Nebulosa · 06-02-2006, 03:16

Taro, you is spanish yes?
give one look in this site

www.lobourbano.com

About pig meat, i not see problems if the pig are the same meat use for the humans, they have one rigorous control for these problems.
Mad cow not give problems for humans, but all cows and cows that live in the local infected are sacrifiqued for not pass this sick for other animals.
If you give the similar meat the you buy for you for the dog, not go have problems.

greetings

Paula H.Pandolfo

Dharkwolf · 06-02-2006, 21:30

Eeep....

Avoid raw pigmeat - always. Regardless of whether or not it is fit for consumption in humans it would not have been tested for a number of diseases which can be lethal to dogs - including Aujeszky's disease.

Aside from the actual diseases which the meat does or does not carry, pig meat is generally considered to be too high in fat for most carnivores (including wolfdogs!). I guess that's what you would expect from animals that don't have to spend their lives running away from a hungry pair of jaws... but I digress.

Personally we do give pig cartilage to our dogs (tails and ears) which they thorougly enjoy, but these extremities are unlikely to carry diseases (very low to no enervation, low blood supply etc).

I guess we cannot stress this enough, perhaps the risk while not great is definatly present and it is generally not worth your while taking.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 06-02-2006, 22:14

Though there hasn´t been a case of Aujetzky´s desease in Gemany for some time I never feed raw pig´s meat. No test is perfect and not every meat you feed is out of your country and properly tested. Dogs can be infected and get problems by Toxoplasmosis and other diseases.
Raw chicken meat is very often contaminated with Campylobacter and Salmonella wich are especially of high risk for young dogs even if dogs are not as sensible to them as humans.

Ina

Nebulosa · 07-02-2006, 00:48

Dry food have risks too, more than the raw pig meat, CIBAU not make much time have problems in the dry food and many dogs die because this.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-02-2006, 08:05

I have never seen any problems with quality dry food. But I am not really sure if I did understand your posting. What is CIBEAU?

Ina

Nebulosa · 07-02-2006, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I have never seen any problems with quality dry food. But I am not really sure if I did understand your posting. What is CIBEAU?

Ina

CIBAU is one dry food mark, Royal Cannin a one time back have the same problem whit one dry food "Lot (that i not remember the number)", Diamond pet food ( This i not know if is high quality) have other same problem too.
Is "littles" mistakes in the dry food busines can kill many dogs that eat the contamined food.

Paula

Dharkwolf · 08-02-2006, 08:45

I think that Nebulosa is referring to the recent case of aflatoxin contaminated pet food in the US.

This concerned the pet food maker “diamond” which was medium to low quality food – at least that’s what I surmise from the press. However this took place in the US (not the EU) and is unlikely to have affected CSV in any way.

Having said that – no one has said that dry food does not have problems. I would not consider aflatoxin outbreaks to be the biggest problem with dry food either – for the individuals affected it is certainly tragic, but there are other issues at stake.

Unfortunately the state of knowledge in canine nutrition is remarkably lacking. The only papers which I have seen dealing with this issue actually recommend feeding food commercialised as cat food to canines as it is apparently better adapted to their needs (!). However this report is rather old (1980’s) and things have changed significantly since then.

It has always been very frustrating for me trying to find information on this subject – there seems to be too many conflicting issues for someone to figure out what is good and what is bad for your pets. Of all our animals, the only one I know is getting exactly the diet it should is our elaphe guttata who gets exactly the same thing as she would in the wild.

Both feeding raw meat and feeding dry food seem to have significant drawbacks, it is really essential that you keep a close eye on your wolfdogs to make sure that their diet is correct – diarrhoea or vomiting are obvious signs that there is some kind of problem with the food, but there are also more subtle signs to watch for, changes in behaviour, activity, fur quality etc all can be affected to the diet.

End of the line – yes there are problems with dry food and sometimes those problems can be exceptional and tragic – such as in the case of aflatoxin poisoning. However, I stand by me previous statement that raw pig meat is simply not worth the risk – if you want to feed raw go for it (I know I do), but don’t use pig meat!

Nebulosa · 09-02-2006, 22:12

Some interessant links about raw feeding

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.urbancarnivore.com/
http://www.rawlearning.com/
http://www.rawdogranch.com/
http://www.barfworld.com/
http://www.caberfeidh.com

catar2catars · 12-02-2006, 19:26

i have two saarloos wolfdogs, the oldest one becomes 6 in august, the youngest 4 in may.
both are rawfed , preymodel style, like discrebet bij dr. Tom Lonsdale.
they get horse, cow, sheep, goat , rabbit ,hares, deer , turkey, fish ,chicken..........everything except pig.

from those animals they get all parts , so as wel bones, fat, muscle meat, organs , skin , everything.

Besides the above mentioned http's , y'll also find some info at http://www.rawmeatybones.com

I don't supllement extra vitamines , all they need , they get from that so called "prey model " feeding and they do extremely well.

ocasionally they get tablescrabs, raw eggs, yoghurt , cheese and sometimes extra bone marrow mixed with some herbs.

Buth 90% of their food is this raw meaty bones , prey model.

My dogs do extremely well on those way of feeding.

Roger
belgium

14-02-2005, 04:51	#1
taro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Barcelona Posts: 17	what about rawfeeding? Hello everyone. Within the last days I've been reading a lot about rawfeeding ( there's a big article in the French forum) and I find it really interesting. I would like to know if any of you practises it with their dog and how the experience is.

07-04-2005, 23:28	#7
cpw Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 16	Raw feeding About Raw feeding. Everything you need to know about raw feeding can be learned at this site and through the sites linked to it. www.rawfeddogs.net charles in USA

14-02-2005, 13:26	#2
Mirkawolf Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 556	I understand that "rawfeeding" means feeding the wolfdog raw meat? That´s what I am feeding both my wolfdogs normally all the time. I am not having any problems and I must say, both dogs look better than if they were eating dry food .. Cira, my older female, came home and was as a puppy already used from the breeder to eat raw meat. So we continued on that, she was getting raw beef and chicken meat, chicken necks, stomachs and hearts, also beef hearts and various other stuff. Plus milk, yoghurt, cottage cheese, eggs. I tried offering her also pasta, oatmeal or rice to mix with the meat, but she always managed to eat only the meat and leave the rest. If she got minced meat with rice, she decided not to eat at all.. When she was more than six months old, I tried to move her on dry food, but it was not working. No matter which brands I tried, she did not eat and if she ate, then only a small amount to keep her alive. After some weeks, she looked slim, you could count all her ribs, her coat was not shiny etc. She was full of energy, no doubt, but it was clear the dry food is not the best. We returned back to meat and again within a few weeks, you could see the difference. She gained some weight, got a thick nice shiny coat and started to look like a very nice dog. So I have no doubts, what is the best to feed my wolfdogs! Ali, my new puppy, came from the breeder used to eat dry food. However, we soon introduced her to normal food. First it was boiled chicken meat (cause she never saw raw meat and did not like it) with rice, later she was getting another cooked meat - chicken, beef, calf, also hearts and stomachs, tripes, liver, all cooked for the beginning. Plus lots of cheese, eggs. She did not like milk or milky products. Now, when Ali is almost 4 months, she eats most of the meat raw, including the hearts and such things. Her coat is shiny, she is growing well, she is full of energy and looks all fine. To both dogs, I am supplying the minerals by giving "Vitaplastin" tablets. That´s Czech product however, but I am sure in your country you will find something similar. Mirka

14-02-2005, 17:26	#3
taro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Barcelona Posts: 17	I agree with you MIrka. My puppy is 3 months old and by the moment I'm feeding him high quality dry food, although I sometimes give him raw meat, dried pig ears, etc. and of course he loves it. I'm seriously thinking of starting with rawfeeding. If you are interested I show you some of the links I've seen in the French forum. I've found them very useful: http://www.barf.ch/accueil.htm http://www.rawfed.com

14-02-2005, 18:33	#4
Koos Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 731	Hello, If you can read the German language, there is also the discussion about raw food. It also the second time that this point is into the picture. Maybe you can have more information there, greetings, Letty

14-02-2005, 21:58	#5
taro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Barcelona Posts: 17	It's a shame, but I can't read German. Thank you anyway

07-04-2005, 15:07	#6
Nebelwölfe Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: am Hochrhein Posts: 771	Hi taro I feed my dogs (2 German shepherds and 1 wolfdog) with raw meat now since 1 1/2 years now and I am very convinced about it. I think its great and healthy for the dogs. They love this kind of food of course - and every day they almost get crazy, when I prepare the food, every time they behave as if they haven't gotten any food for weeks. And you can see the difference not only in a shiny coat and healthy dog - but also in the excremet, which is much more smaller because they can dispose this kind of food much more better and more sufficient. I feed them with meat, heart, gorge, first stomache, liver, kidney from cow - which I get directly from the slaughterhouse, but also with parts of or whole chicken, turkey, lamb or fish (all also inclusive bones). Besides that I often (but not every time) add pasta, rice or cooked (!!) potatoes - sometimes but not very often cereals - and all kinds vegetables (mashed if freshly). They get raw eggs, dairy products like cottage cheese or curd, and they eat fruits like apples, cherries, plums, bananas, and so on. They I add supplements like herbs and minerals as well as different kinds of oils (from olives, thistles, sunflowers and so on). And they eat it all up! I started feeding them with raw meat right away, from one day to the other. At the beginning I was just little cautious with the bones. You can do it different ways, but do not mix it with dry food! When I travel, I take along dry food for convenience - and feed it. No problems so long. But what I heard is, that you should breed wolfdogs whith dry food from time to time anyways - otherwise you might have problems some day, because they won't eat it any more (see what Mirka wrote). My luck is, that my wolfdog is such a glutton, he eats everything with delight (especially if he can nick it ) - even things my other dogs don't eat!! Once a year I get a blood test done to check the blood parameters (?) and see, if the feeding is balanced and nothing is missing. Have also a look here: http://www.barfers.com http://www.rawmeatybones.com Regards, Petra

08-04-2005, 05:14	#8
ligerwolve Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 52	I dont know if this is of any interest but I thought anyone who uses dry food should know. If you feed your dog dry kibble you can be over feeding because it swells when moisture is absorbed in the stomach, making the animal bloated. I feed my dogs a little soaked kibble with something like raw meat, yogurt, fish and occasionally substitute witha nice meaty bone instead. I used to feed my oldest tinned food and kibble and she didnt seem that healthy (not to mention hyperactive). Then one day I had to leave her alone with my mum and her dogs while I went away. Now my mum is a cake decorator and has a lot of left over cake which she decided to give to the dogs. well when i got back i was so shocked by the amount of weight she had gained. So i spoke to some breeders and they have kept me up to date on nutrition. (she looks much better now) Any way I dont think a little high quality (no added colours or flavours) kibble is wrong as long as it's soaked.

11-04-2005, 23:49	#9
Zoli Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Budapest Posts: 4	Attention! You never should give raw pork to dogs or cats. It is possible that the pig had Aujeszky's disease, and this is always mortal to carnivores (dogs, wolves, cats). It is quite similar to rabies, but fortunately humans cannot be infected. I also give raw chicken to my wolfdog, but never pork.

06-02-2006, 03:16	#10
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Taro, you is spanish yes? give one look in this site www.lobourbano.com About pig meat, i not see problems if the pig are the same meat use for the humans, they have one rigorous control for these problems. Mad cow not give problems for humans, but all cows and cows that live in the local infected are sacrifiqued for not pass this sick for other animals. If you give the similar meat the you buy for you for the dog, not go have problems. greetings Paula H.Pandolfo

06-02-2006, 21:30	#11
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	Eeep.... Avoid raw pigmeat - always. Regardless of whether or not it is fit for consumption in humans it would not have been tested for a number of diseases which can be lethal to dogs - including Aujeszky's disease. Aside from the actual diseases which the meat does or does not carry, pig meat is generally considered to be too high in fat for most carnivores (including wolfdogs!). I guess that's what you would expect from animals that don't have to spend their lives running away from a hungry pair of jaws... but I digress. Personally we do give pig cartilage to our dogs (tails and ears) which they thorougly enjoy, but these extremities are unlikely to carry diseases (very low to no enervation, low blood supply etc). I guess we cannot stress this enough, perhaps the risk while not great is definatly present and it is generally not worth your while taking.

06-02-2006, 22:14	#12
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Though there hasn´t been a case of Aujetzky´s desease in Gemany for some time I never feed raw pig´s meat. No test is perfect and not every meat you feed is out of your country and properly tested. Dogs can be infected and get problems by Toxoplasmosis and other diseases. Raw chicken meat is very often contaminated with Campylobacter and Salmonella wich are especially of high risk for young dogs even if dogs are not as sensible to them as humans. Ina

07-02-2006, 00:48	#13
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Dry food have risks too, more than the raw pig meat, CIBAU not make much time have problems in the dry food and many dogs die because this.

07-02-2006, 08:05	#14
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I have never seen any problems with quality dry food. But I am not really sure if I did understand your posting. What is CIBEAU? Ina

08-02-2006, 08:45	#16
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	I think that Nebulosa is referring to the recent case of aflatoxin contaminated pet food in the US. This concerned the pet food maker “diamond” which was medium to low quality food – at least that’s what I surmise from the press. However this took place in the US (not the EU) and is unlikely to have affected CSV in any way. Having said that – no one has said that dry food does not have problems. I would not consider aflatoxin outbreaks to be the biggest problem with dry food either – for the individuals affected it is certainly tragic, but there are other issues at stake. Unfortunately the state of knowledge in canine nutrition is remarkably lacking. The only papers which I have seen dealing with this issue actually recommend feeding food commercialised as cat food to canines as it is apparently better adapted to their needs (!). However this report is rather old (1980’s) and things have changed significantly since then. It has always been very frustrating for me trying to find information on this subject – there seems to be too many conflicting issues for someone to figure out what is good and what is bad for your pets. Of all our animals, the only one I know is getting exactly the diet it should is our elaphe guttata who gets exactly the same thing as she would in the wild. Both feeding raw meat and feeding dry food seem to have significant drawbacks, it is really essential that you keep a close eye on your wolfdogs to make sure that their diet is correct – diarrhoea or vomiting are obvious signs that there is some kind of problem with the food, but there are also more subtle signs to watch for, changes in behaviour, activity, fur quality etc all can be affected to the diet. End of the line – yes there are problems with dry food and sometimes those problems can be exceptional and tragic – such as in the case of aflatoxin poisoning. However, I stand by me previous statement that raw pig meat is simply not worth the risk – if you want to feed raw go for it (I know I do), but don’t use pig meat!

09-02-2006, 22:12	#17
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Some interessant links about raw feeding http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html http://www.urbancarnivore.com/ http://www.rawlearning.com/ http://www.rawdogranch.com/ http://www.barfworld.com/ http://www.caberfeidh.com

12-02-2006, 19:26	#18
catar2catars Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 27	i have two saarloos wolfdogs, the oldest one becomes 6 in august, the youngest 4 in may. both are rawfed , preymodel style, like discrebet bij dr. Tom Lonsdale. they get horse, cow, sheep, goat , rabbit ,hares, deer , turkey, fish ,chicken..........everything except pig. from those animals they get all parts , so as wel bones, fat, muscle meat, organs , skin , everything. Besides the above mentioned http's , y'll also find some info at http://www.rawmeatybones.com I don't supllement extra vitamines , all they need , they get from that so called "prey model " feeding and they do extremely well. ocasionally they get tablescrabs, raw eggs, yoghurt , cheese and sometimes extra bone marrow mixed with some herbs. Buth 90% of their food is this raw meaty bones , prey model. My dogs do extremely well on those way of feeding. Roger belgium