Black under jaws, from wolf or GSD ???

[Mikael]

Hello

I have belived that the black under jaws on CsV was hereditary from the GSD...

But now I am not sure anymore ???

I fund this butefull paiting on Timberwolfs, the mother has wite under jaw, but the puppys have black, especialy one.
Dose Carpatian wolfs puppies have black underjaws to ???

The link : http://www.freespiritart.com/images/...art-prints.jpg

Does any body know more on this subject ?

Best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Yes they do.
Here you can see four of the Carpatian wolfs we handraised:
http://www.twhclub.de/wbb2/thread.ph...tuser=0&page=3
But staying black jaws are GSD-heritage.

Ina

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes they do.
Here you can see four of the Carpatian wolfs we handraised:
http://www.twhclub.de/wbb2/thread.ph...tuser=0&page=3
But staying black jaws are GSD-heritage.

Ina

Tanks fore the photos

But how can one be so sure that it is from GSD when the wolf also has it ???

Regards / M

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Because in wolfs only puppies have it. It gets lighter in the first year like it does in CSW following the standard.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Because in wolfs only puppies have it. It gets lighter in the first year like it does in CSW following the standard.

Thanks fore the answer

Regards / Mikael

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Mikael

But how can one be so sure that it is from GSD when the wolf also has it ???

The black muzzle is a sign of puppy in wolves - as far as I know the pups are removed from the pack hierarchy until around half year old, unlike in dogs.
Domestification actually causes preservation of some infant characteristics in adult dogs - like infantile behavior, big eyes, round head, smooth hair - some of them were even further supported by selection in pet breeds. It seems this was also true for black muzzle.

Ina, do you know what is the usual time for the muzzle to get light in carpathian wolves? It seems to me that most of wolfdogs have the light mask fully developed by 3 months of age, and i have seen some cca 2 months old pups with very distinct light masks in photographs...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

It was different in our wolfs but in general all 8 got total developed masks later than our wolfdogs. When you look at the last pictures on page 4 of the link they are about 6 month of age.
They are about 3 month on the picture where all three are howling, I woulnd´t buy a wolfdog looking like that in that age, they develop differently in the first year.

But I don´t think dark faces in dogs are due to Infantilisation.

Ina

[saschia]

Well, it might be only due to selection, but why? I mean most of the breeds which are not light in color have either no mask, or dark mask. Exceptions seem to me to be only black-and-tan colors and nordic breeds.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

That would work out if mostly the breeds that fulfill the babysheme would have no mask but most working breeds don´t have any eather.
There has an interesting research been done some time ago. Because the flight reaction of the foxes is a big problem in fur-production a scientist selected foxes only on one feature, tameness in the meaning of low flight-reaction. Within very few generations he got very tame foxes, with black and white spots and floppy ears. The theory on the domestication of dogs is that the wolfs with low flight-reaction did have an evolutionary advantage, they got more food on the dumps near human settlings and that the different looks came accidentially with that.

Ina

[hanninadina]

At what age young wolves have only white mask? How is or was it with your wolves Ina?

I saw a few weeks ago 4 1/2 month young wolve puppies in Wildpark Scharzer Berge near Hamburg with all black mask. So after what I read here it seems as if it is ok..?!

Thanks

Christian

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

.................................

[hanninadina]

Ina, do you have pictures from your now over 1 year old wolves, so that we can see that there is no black mask any more? The pics you gave us the link show only young wolves under one year. If I understand it right you say that wolves have till one year black mask.

Is it with every grey wolf so? I thought I saw young wolves with white mask.... For me it is completely new that europaen grey wolves have black mask in the first year.

Christian

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Ina, do you have pictures from your now over 1 year old wolves, so that we can see that there is no black mask any more?

Christian

Or maby we can just believe her word about it Christian

Regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Or maby we can just believe her word about it Christian

Regards / Mikael

Thank you Mikael but no need to do so, on the 4 pages in my link you can see when the photos have been made, they mostly have been put into the forum shortly after taking them, I think they nicely show the developement of masks. The wolfs have been born midth of April. But I am sure you did understand my third post.

And this are about 6-7 week old CSW puppies: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/30945/
these are about 5-6 weeks: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/30796/
this one about 10-12 weeks: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/16257/
I think they show very nicely that Saschia has been right.

Regards Ina

[Juniorwolf]

Please forgive me if some of you dont think this is the right thread to ask this question !

I have seen some CSW`s who don`t have a straight muzzle(bending down on the last part just before the nose) and I have never seen it on any GSD or wolf before, so I wonder if anyone know where this comes from ?
...I havent seen all GSD or wolves, so maybe some of you have seen it on one of thise two animals before or is it a mutation caused by inbreeding(like outstanding eyes and curly coat) ?

Greetings Rolf

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello,
I don´t exactly know what you mean, if it is the kind of mask you quite often see in dark-coloured wolfdogs this is something I have seen in wolfs too. I think it is just a variability in colour.

Regards Ina

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hello,
I don´t exactly know what you mean, if it is the kind of mask you quite often see in dark-coloured wolfdogs this is something I have seen in wolfs too. I think it is just a variability in colour.

Regards Ina

I guess he means not the color, but the form Like this: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/lt/gallery/pic/43671/

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I guess he means not the color, but the form Like this: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/lt/gallery/pic/43671/

This is an absolutely normal mask of an elder dog.
I thought something like this http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/12307/ this kind isn´t so uncommon in dark coloured dogs. I have seen it in wolfs, I think it´s just a question of genetic variability.

Ina

[Juniorwolf]

Hi Ina,

No I don`t mean the mask, but shape of the muzzle :

not straight muzzle


straight muzzle


Greetings Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I guess he means not the color, but the form Like this: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/lt/gallery/pic/43671/

Hi Vaiva,

yes like this ...sorry, but i did not see your post before I already made one my self

Greetings Rolf