Tamaskan Dogs..

[yukidomari]

Recently on another forum the subject of Tamaskan dogs came up and as I was doing some research it seemed very clear to me that some of the heavily used foundation dogs used in the formation of the Tamaskan dog are CSVs.

Besides the 'problem' of outcrossing, there is also the fact that the Tamaskan club claims to be breeding a 'wolf dog without the wolf' - which is clearly not true if CSVs were used heavily in its foundation.

For example the foundation kennel of Tamaskans claim that this dog:
http://tamaskan-dog.com/blustag/jackal.htm

Is a "Siberian cross".. in Tamaskan Dog Registry, Jackal at Blustag is claimed to be from a Siberian Husky dam and a dog of unknown cross named Oskari from Polar Speed kennel. There is also another "Oskari" (pet name only) at Polar Speed kennel, the CSV known as Oxbox Leva-Neve (searchable on our database here).

The "unknown cross" to which the sire is ascribed is a registered Siberian Husky, which would make Jackal 100% Siberian (clearly, he is not).

The owner of Polar Speed has kept one of Jackal's brother/littermates and acknowledges him as a "wolfdog cross"...

My problem is this:

Tamaskans are being marketed as "friendly" dogs that looks like wolves with 0 wolf content. Clearly according to my research this is not true (will post more information further down). It is my opinion that this 'breed' is just mildly outcrossed CSV, yet the 'breeders' are taking all the credit for 'creating' this dog and getting it its wolfy type.. which is simply not true.

Has anyone any more information regarding the use of CSVs in the dogs known as Tamaskan?

Here is a site that I found very informative:

http://the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.blogspot.com/

The Tamaskan Dog Registry is in my opinion outright lying about the origins of their dogs when you read the details.

[hanninadina]

I got questions from Tamaskan breeders who were looking for a male csw for breeding 0 Wolf %. So, I think this answer enough.

Christian

[GalomyOak]

I started a thread on this same topic a few months back. I was contacted by some "Aatu" Tamaskan ("regular" Tamaskan people say they distance themselves from Aatu) breeders here in the US - looking to utilize one of my males as a stud. Later, they said someone else had agreed to let them use a male (or maybe they found a breeder willing to send a male...).

Here is the thread:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13371

[yukidomari]

Interesting you noted your previous thread where both Blustag & Blufawn comment.

Interesting to further note the shared parentage of Oskari the Vlcak, as well.

Thanks for all those who replied both here & by PM.

Still reading around more but it seems like to me the Aatu people are openly breeding to wolfdogs where as the "normal" people (Blustag included) seem to be doing well, either not anymore or behind closed doors, as the dog is said to be 0% wolf content.

Finding it very difficult to believe that a pretty consistent type with the pictorial 'standard' can be found as early as 2006 when the 'breed' was in its first generations supposedly founded upon solely GSDs, Mals, Sibes and a handful of unknowns.

Does anyone know the kennel Polar Speed personally?

[Tuuli Salmi]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Does anyone know the kennel Polar Speed personally?

Hi Yukidomari,

I am the person that helped Blustag get her CsV x Siberian huskies & wolfdogs Valko and Henki (real wolfdogs originating from pure wolf / high content wolfdog called Boogie) from Polar Speed. I visited Polar Speed quite a few times to gather information and photograph his dogs in order for Blustag to buy dogs from him. Also included full pedigrees with information that Oskari is a pure CsV (Finnish Champion btw) that I still have saved on my hard drive. I have been trying to tell people the truth about Tamaskan wolf & CsV content from the day I noticed that Blustag and Blufawn were going to deny it. To me it is omportant people know what the truth is and what they are getting if they want to get a Tamaskan.

If you want recent news on this, we have had one Finnish Tamaskan dog, Blustag Little Moon ("Nuuk") tested in Finnzymes lab on parental DNA analysis compared with a white wolfdog Valko (sired by Boogie, mother a pure sibe). Nuuk's TDR pedigree states his father is a dog called Whitefang. No information of this Whitefang is available from the TDR (where he lives, who owns hims etc). The DNA analysis was positive for Valko being Nuuk's sire (see: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AX...FtNXZjaA&hl=fi), the possibility for him NOT to be Nuuk's sire is less than one percent as stated by the Finnzymes lab. Whitefang is also listed by the TDR Foundation Dog Booklet as Heidi at Blustag's sire, and the litter brother to Jodie at Blustag. So Jodie at Blustag is also an F1 and Heidi and the "Little litter" are F2 wolfdogs. So Whitefang is Valko and Jodie is Henki, who both were listed as wolfdogs on Blustag's old website (while Blustag lived in Finland), which can still be accessed through web archives: http://web.archive.org/web/200606211...gs/wolfdog.htm Blustag has also publicly announced that they owned wolfdogs from Boogie: http://tamaskan-dog.com/uk/Articles/nowolfable.htm . I have tried to post this piece of evidence on the TDR forum, but the post got removed immediately, I was banned and a topic started right away to just attack me on a personal level, not address the issue itself. I have tried many times to post on the TDR forums but they have always removed me and the posts.

Have you been to our FB group: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=...d=176807493391 There you can find photos of the dogs in questions and also of Oskari, Boogie, Valko, Henki and their littermates etc.

If any of you need more information, please contact me or join our FB group (we welcome everyone no matter how you feel about tamaskans or our research). I will try to help with any questions you have regarding this, but please be patient if I dont get back to asap, I have so many people contacting me it is taking me quite a few hours a day just to write emails...

All the best to you all,

Tuuli Salmi

[Gypsy Wolf]

Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves?
Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.
So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes...
Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased.
As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

I think the issue (the way I see it) is less of "wolf blood" (although that's what you hear) and more about temperament. The foundation of these dogs, from what I understand, are dogs with very watered-down drive, so the goal is a nice, even tempered, family dog that's easy to train and manage. Since the CsV is so "close" to wolves, and since they're bred with work/sport more in mind, they have a much higher drive and a rougher personality to deal with. In short, the Tamaskans should be "easy" dogs to own where CsVs take a lot of work and dedication. Learning about both breeds, this is the reason I've settled on the CsV as being the dog in my future. I personally feel dogs should be bred, and especially new breeds should only be created, for a real working function, or preservation of a past function. The Tamaskans (from my point of view) are the equivalent of watering down a breed for show, only these people are doing so deliberately to make a good house pet instead of it just being a byproduct of the show ring. (Honestly, don't see the point, there are plenty of perfectly good pet dogs around, no need to make more! But I digress...)

In addition to that, it's the flat out lying about it that should get people riled up! It doesn't help in the slightest to establish a "breed" based on falsified pedigrees!


Oh, & editing to add that as a Sibe person the breed does bother me a bit, but only because they're using Sibes to breed dogs without working function, not because of looking "wolfy"! Tamaskans are using the "wolfy" appearance as a marketing gimmick, really. Sibes & Mals are functional working dogs that happen to look "wolfy". Big difference! And honestly, if the breed were to become popular, I'd breath a little sigh of relief, because a Tamaskan would make a MUCH better housepet than a Sibe, and all too often people wanting a "wolfy" dog will run out to the first BYB Sibe breeder they can find. It's sad seeing so many dogs wind up in shelters or worse because people picking dogs just for "wolfy" appearance don't know what they're getting in to, and get in way over their heads.

[Tuuli Salmi]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.

CsV is one case, pure wolf another. Both have been used to created Tamaskans. It is not the CsV/wolf percentege I am doing this for, it is the fact that people havent been told about these infusions. I.e. they have been misled to believe that the breed has been created from GSD, malamute and siberian, which is just not TRUE. I think everyone is entitled to receive the truth and nothing can nor will justify NOT telling people the truth.

I am a sibe person myself and like Vicky cannot understand people who get sibes and dont work them. They are a working breed. There are enough pet breeds already. IMHO every siberian that is bred should have some sort of indication of its working ability.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves?
Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.
So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes...
Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased.
As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

im saddened by that comment

im a sibe person too...yes im annoyed and no...sibes are meant to be foxy not wolfy

funny.. in england we have all three of these crosses... all supposedly containing the same 3 breeds all looking completely different...2 of them having csv added then suddenly breed to type!!

i dont want sibes or csv's used in this way

[Gypsy Wolf]

No one wants to see their working dogs "watered down" - we have the same issue in Belgian Malinois (I have 2) and German Shepherds (I have 1), AND in Malinois we have the same issue of falsified pedigrees. No offense to any Dutch folks, but in the Malinois world it is common knowledge that the Dutch Malinois are mixes and one can never trust what is written on a pedigree - and even one famous French-bred dog, who appears in 95% of all Malinois pedigrees today NEVER ACTUALLY SIRED A LITTER.
That said, I heartily DISAGREE that all dogs should be bred for a working purposes. Honestly, nowadays, most dogs ARE PETS. There are no more 300 sheep flocks to watch over, we don't need to subsist on wild-caught game, or have dogs retrieve ropes to anchor ships.
Why are most dogs in shelters? Because of behavioral problems - many of which stem from the fact that the dog was too drivey and not able to be managed properly to channel that drive. The family wanted a PET. That is the new work of dogs. As we get further and further from our agrarian roots, dogs do too. Breeding for working drive, and not having a "market" for such is a serious issue. It's one reason I have never bred my Malinois. Not enough good homes for their "drive" requirements.
On the flip side, I am not worried about placing my German Shepherd's pups. Though they are drivey enough to do Schutzhund and Herding, among other working venues, they are also calm enough to place appropriately into "pet" homes. And 90% of such litters go to pet homes.
So why is it wrong for someone to want a gorgeous pet? Sheesh, if there wasn't a market, there would BE no Tamaskan dogs. So for you serious Sibe folks, be HAPPY someone is providing a "wolf-like" dog with a soft temperament for pet homes. Then they are not watering down your Sibes.
Tell me, how often do you have to harness up your dogs and bring supplies out to far-flung Arctic encampments? Even Sibes don't have a "job" anymore! And the folks who DO long-distance sledding often mix Sibes with hounds and other breeds as pure Sibes apparently do not work as well as mixes. But those mutts are actually WORKING, so was it wrong to for the true working-sledding folks to create a better sledding mix rather than using pure-bred Sibes?
Just food for thought. Certainly I do not want to see CsVs watered down, but I certainly cannot fault someone for wanting a beautiful pet. I also do not fault those same people for not going to the pound and "rescuing" someone else's garbage. I worked at a local SPCA for almost 10 years, and the dogs dumped there where discarded for a reason. Who wants to inherit a dog who bites, poos all over itself or other (insert bad habit)? Not only that, but aesthetics play a part. If I like a "wolfy" looking dog, why would I adopt a pitbull mix? Just because it is politically correct to adopt from a shelter? Think about it. Honestly. Ask yourself these same questions. Part of the reason we are attracted to a particular breed is also because we know there will be certain behavioral traits in that breed that we like. With a shelter dog, you have absolutely no clue what your are getting.
I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

My Siberian is "someone else's garbage" that came to us crate trained, housebroken, with basic obedience and house manners. Sure, he had some rough edges to work out, but all in all, he came as a fantastic dog.

I think people looking to trash shelter dogs so quickly haven't really taken the time to look for a dog. You don't go rushing out to the first breeder you see, do you? Then why would you do the same when it comes to shelters/rescues? You're much more likely to find a suitable dog for a pet home via a reputable shelter that tests their dogs rather than having the same family get a puppy that may or may not fit their situation. Just because there's a "market" for dogs does not mean they should be bred. I'm sorry if I sound elitist, but it's just how I feel, dogs should either have a current job (like Alaskan Huskies, the mutts used in sprinting) or should be bred to preserve a breed. You're right, huskies and mals aren't used so much, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't still be bred to standard and preserved. It's "breed preservation" not "breed to fill puppy demand," that's what mills do.

I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

What do you mean by that, do the same thing? It's not a matter of switching breeds entirely based on temperament, it's about adopting the dog that, although it's a breed that NORMALLY would be drivey, the dog has a temperament that doesn't fit with the normal standard. You can get this somewhat (like you even said) with pet-quality dogs from a good breeder, but you can get an even better match with a rescue pet that has been tested and found to fit in your particular situation. It's about doing the legwork to actually find a dog that fits for you, not glancing once and giving up because "they don't have the right dog," so you run out & buy a puppy. The rescue we got my husky from constantly has mixes that look wolfy, and a lot of them have nowhere near the drive that "standard" dogs would have. The only reason I would EVER get a dog anywhere other than a shelter/rescue would be if I had a specific job or sport that I wanted to do with that dog, because THAT'S the reason (the way I see it) to go to a breeder. Pet dogs are EVERYWHERE.

[tupacs2legs]

i have no problem people wanting a 'pet' i have one of these types (northern inuit)..but its beyond me how a dog made out of 3 possibly 4 driven working breeds will fit this scenario...not even knowing which traits will surface and in what way :-(

[Gypsy Wolf]

You were very lucky that your Sibe was house-broken, etc., and had very few issues. Having worked at the SPCA local to me in NJ for 10 years, I can say that your experience is not necessarily the norm. So why did you pick a Sibe? Why didn't you adopt a more common "shelter" breed like a mutt? BECAUSE you liked the SIBE, not the Lab/Shepherd mixes that are all too common in shelters these days.
That said, I also have volunteered for Malinois rescue for many years - people who adopt our Mals could just as easily get a mutt from the pound, but they don't - they like Malinois - whether it's aesthetics or not. So I don't preach that there are enough pets in shelters for them to adopt... it is infrequent to find certain breeds in shelters - probably due to lack of overall numbers in the area. I can say the whole I time I was working in the shelter only a handful of purebred Sibes every came through our doors.
So I don't fault someone who wants a pet of a certain breed and seeks out a breeder, rather than adopting a shelter dog.
I adopted dogs from the shelter where I worked. Not always easy. So eventually I decided to research breeds I liked so that I could find a dog with character traits I wanted in a package that I liked.
Do I disagree - there are NOT good pet dogs that people want "everywhere" - that's exactly why Tamaskans came about. All breeds were created from some root stock - our own CsVs are bred from GSDs - just because it was a government program originally does not make it better or worse than someone going ahead and developing the Tamaskan.
And why NOT develop a breed just for companionship? Most of the Toy Group fit that.
My point is, so what is wrong with developing the Tamaskan? It more than certainly is NOT preventing the adoption of all the pit mixes in the shelter right now - the people who want a Tamaskan won't be the ones who adopt a mutt, or even a Sibe, for that matter - they want a Tamaskan. The same reason I wanted a Vlcak - hey, there are more wolf-hybrids available - and I could rescue one of those but I didn't want one - I wanted a Vlcak. I didn't want a pit mix or any other mutt. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but they are not right for me.
I am tired of people criticizing others for wanting and promoting purebred dogs over rescuing shelter dogs. In my experience, one really has nothing to do with the other. And when it comes right down to it, those same folks tend to have their breed preferences, too... that's what I meant by my comment. A lot of those same critical folks are just as selective of the dog they bring into their home, so why the criticism? A little hypocritical to me.

[tupacs2legs]

here in England culling is not acceptable and the breeders of these dogs sell on most of the pups without neutering being enforced,they breed for what they think will look like a wolf,not very typy at all,all have different temperaments..basically a alot of crossbreed dogs,bred to order,bought on an impulse and discarded either,when bred from, or are too hard to handle...its my opinion in this day and age it is not ethical to breed dogs purely for looks,when there are enough crosses and purebreeds already to fit the purpose.

im talking ni's and 'ute's that we have here all with the same said mix as the tamaskan..where all these crosses start to breed to type is when they add csv...the breed (csv)isnt established in its own right here yet!

[Gypsy Wolf]

My point is, every breed gets a start somewhere - and there is a demand for dogs with good pet temperaments - certainly more of a demand for that nowadays as opposed to dogs that work.
Getting into a flurry over Tamaskan dogs is not going to change a thing. I would prefer to focus on this issues in our own breed.
I don't like to be judgmental about things like that - especially since, truth be told, I LIKE certain "created for pets" breeds like the Alaskan Klee Kai... they are adorable! And I think the world is a better place for having them in it.

[yukidomari]

Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence.

Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business.

HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise.

Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc.

There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area.

You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.
There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com
You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk...
The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.

No, no, that's the problem. It's not just CSVs they've used, but actual pure wolves. Like 'Whitefang', a certified Interior Alaskan Tundra wolf. And recent, too. And, some deny the use of CSVs at all.. instead representing where Oskari falls as a purebred Siberian Husky (which CSVs are clearly not, both temperamentally and otherwise)..

And again, it's not about the content or what not, it's about being upfront about pedigree information. It's about correctly representing the dog.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

You can when you change the name on the pedigree on whitefang's offspring, and list him as an unknown breed.. even when one of said offspring's littermates tested DNA positive for having whitefang as a sire....