How to show a Vlcak?

[Gypsy Wolf]

Hi all,
I would like to know how vlcaks are shown? I am familiar with AKC, UKC, German Seiger shows... but have never seen a vlcak show... are they hand-posed at all? Are they expected to stand four-square without assistance? Are they supposed to have one rear leg behind the other like a GSD?
We had our first conformation class today and though I have memorized the standard, it really doesn't specify how to show them (some standards actually say a breed is shown "natural" or without assistance).
Due to her angulation, it does not seem comfortable for her to position her rear legs so that the hock is at a right angle to the ground like most breeds are shown. She looks a little "A" framed that way and is unbalanced. Positioned with her right leg under her hip and her left hock extended to form a right angle (like a GSD) looks better and she is more comfortable with that.
Having her stop and position herself four-square, it looks "amateur" to me - but perhaps I am used to GSD and other breeds in the ring (I also show Belgian Malinois, Collies and Finnish Spitz).
As with ANY dog in the ring, the goal is to maximize her good points and minimize her bad ones. She is more GSD-looking than wolf, so she is more angulated than some vlcaks. Perhaps she should be shown a little more like a GSD if she looks more GSD? ANd a wolfier vlcak allowed to stand four-square on it's own as it would be less angulated?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello,

you will find here several pictures http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/cat/2/2010/
Forget the Shepherds a wolfdog should not have an angulation like a shepherd. The presentations I have seen in Shepherds did force this angulation and therefor can´t work with a wolfdog. It should stand properly and straight, that normally is enough.

Ina

[Vaiva]

There is a group of nice articles, written by Margo. But they are in POlish (also translated by wolfin to Lithuanian, but the language still not more understandible ) Still there are nice schemes, pictures and with a help of google translate you could get some knowledge in this area
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/778.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/776.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/768.html

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

There is a group of nice articles, written by Margo. But they are in POlish (also translated by wolfin to Lithuanian, but the language still not more understandible ) Still there are nice schemes, pictures and with a help of google translate you could get some knowledge in this area
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/778.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/776.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/articles/768.html

Vaiva, I tried to google translate it and the result was not so bad, not perfect but understandable.

[saschia]

Having her stop and position herself four-square, it looks "amateur" to me

Well, wolfdog should look as natural as possible I think. The correct posture is a natural one. Of course, it is onot good to let your dog stand "at ease", but a good judge tells you to make a step or two if the dog is not standing naturally, and looks how the dog m\positions his legs.

I like Margo's articles on the showing, but there is one thing wrong and one which I don't agree with. The correct posture of the hind legs is with the hock joint being exactly under the "ischial tuberosity" - the end of pelvis. The hock are usually not in the right angle with the floor.

The thing I don't agree with is the use of showing leash to hold the dog's head up and the collar part being positioned on the top of the neck, just below the chin. In my opinion, the dogs look much better if the collar is slightly loose and falling to the bottom of the neck, so that the head is held naturally, like here and here.

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by saschia

The thing I don't agree with is the use of showing leash to hold the dog's head up and the collar part being positioned on the top of the neck, just below the chin. In my opinion, the dogs look much better if the collar is slightly loose and falling to the bottom of the neck, so that the head is held naturally, like here and here.

I really agree with you. They’re more beautiful without pressure of the collar, they look "natural"
But Margo has very good results in show... but, her dogs are really beautiful!

[saschia]

Well, Margo shows a lot, so yes, she has good results and it probably works with different judges. But I say what I prefer though I am not a judge. It would be interesting to ask judges who are specialists in wolfdogs what they prefer. Maybe Sonya will stroll here someties and will let us know ;o)

But, the question comes from Americas and of course most of the judges there (and in Europe too) have no idea what wolfdogs are supposed to look like and how they are to be presented. I expect that in normal show community, positioning of the dog in "correct posture" and using show leashes with heads held high looks better and more professional than just letting the dog show itself...

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by saschia

Well, Margo shows a lot, so yes, she has good results and it probably works with different judges. But I say what I prefer though I am not a judge. It would be interesting to ask judges who are specialists in wolfdogs what they prefer. Maybe Sonya will stroll here someties and will let us know ;o)

But, the question comes from Americas and of course most of the judges there (and in Europe too) have no idea what wolfdogs are supposed to look like and how they are to be presented. I expect that in normal show community, positioning of the dog in "correct posture" and using show leashes with heads held high looks better and more professional than just letting the dog show itself...

I really agree with you concern I'm now in "America" to (I’m in Canada) and of course the day I'll present my new dogs in show I'll be glad to let them show without a pressure of a choke chain. Probably the first dogs shown are going to make the difference... So I hope they can evolve "free" on the show ring...

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by saschia

But, the question comes from Americas and of course most of the judges there (and in Europe too) have no idea what wolfdogs are supposed to look like and how they are to be presented. I expect that in normal show community, positioning of the dog in "correct posture" and using show leashes with heads held high looks better and more professional than just letting the dog show itself...

Right now, our breed can only be shown for conformation in the UKC - all handling must be done by the owner, breeder, or family member of either one - professional handlers are forbidden. There are some experienced handlers - but not like in the AKC. There are many more "amateurs". (We won't be eligible to show conformation in the AKC until there are 150 dogs, from 100 different owners, in 20+ states registered - then we can apply to exit the FSS and have full AKC recognition - we can participate in all working/sport competitions through AKC right now). As you said, judges have no idea what they are looking at - and most are caught up with the history of the breed - and either love them or hate them based only on the concept of the breed. I have always tried to interpret the position of the neck from the standard - inclined to the horizontal in movement, 40 degree angle in repose (uncommon English word - this means at rest - not moving, I think). I haven't read anywhere where the head should be held "vertically" - so I avoid this. I usually let my dogs "stack" themselves naturally - 4 square, like the dog in the blue background of this website. Definitely not like a shepherd.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by saschia

I like Margo's articles on the showing, but there is one thing wrong and one which I don't agree with. The correct posture of the hind legs is with the hock joint being exactly under the "ischial tuberosity" - the end of pelvis.

What you write is correct. But the photo is correct too....
I fully agree with you with one exception:

Originally Posted by saschia

The hock are usually not in the right angle with the floor.

IF the dog will have the right angulation than the hock joint will EXACTLY under the "ischium".
Usually it is not with the right angle because USUALLY the dogs have wrong angulation (in the most cases they are overangulated - with the angulation more or less similar to these of German Shepherd Dogs).


I wrote these articles a VERY long time ago when it was really hard to get any good photos. In this case the goal was to show the right angles when you show the dog and not the right angulation of the Wolfdog. It is very young female with overangulation typical for young dogs..
Now I plan to reedit all of them and not only post better photos but fix some parts which are not clear enough....

To see the angulation of the dog it must be standing in the show position which I showed - the legs MUST be vertical to the ground. Of course a judge will be able to judge the legs even if the dog is not standing in the right possition because you always can see if the angulation is OK or not.

Here you have two examples:

FIRST (the photo is not perfect because it is also almost a puppy but at the moment I have no time to look for better one - anyway it is visible what I mean :


Here you can see the right (show) position of the legs & the right (standard) angulation. As written in the standard: "An imaginary vertical line drawn from the point of the ischium, would run midway through the hock joint." )


SECOND:


Here you have also the case that the line comming from the ischum goes through the hock joint BUT the legs are not vertical to the ground. WHY? Because of bad angulation - if you would move the legs to the "show possion" you will have to move them very far to the back. What you will get would be an angulation of a German Shepherd Dog. Really bad angulation of a Wolfdog.
Simply said: if the legs of a dog are standing so that the line comming from the ischum goes through the hock joint BUT the legs are NOT vertical to the ground it means only one: the angulation is wrong.


Now all people will for sure check their dogs - but the true is pretty sad: really only few Wolfdogs have PERFECT angulation. Most of CzWs are a little bit overangulated - it is not a huge problem if the breeders will make the proper selection. But SAD is that even the extremly overangulated dogs also never get worser notes on the bonitations, dog shows, aso...(In only few cases I saw that a judge gave J5 on the bonitation or worser note on the dogs show. In the most cases the dogs was judges as perfect even if it was angulation like a RABBIT ). Really: almost nobody cares (nobody knows?) about the real angulation of the dogs... And it is the reason for pretty bad situation in this area. It is really worth to start to select it because it have huge influence on the movement (only dog with typical angulation moves like typical CzW). But also the endurance of our dogs depend on it.

And for the end - two photos of the wolves with a nice angulation and (almost) show position....

[GalomyOak]

Margo -cool! Thanks! I think I understand better now!

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Here you have two examples:

FIRST (the photo is not perfect because it is also almost a puppy but at the moment I have no time to look for better one - anyway it is visible what I mean :


Here you can see the right (show) position of the legs & the right (standard) angulation. As written in the standard: "An imaginary vertical line drawn from the point of the ischium, would run midway through the hock joint." )


SECOND:


Here you have also the case that the line comming from the ischum goes through the hock joint BUT the legs are not vertical to the ground. WHY? Because of bad angulation - if you would move the legs to the "show possion" you will have to move them very far to the back. What you will get would be an angulation of a German Shepherd Dog. Really bad angulation of a Wolfdog.
Simply said: if the legs of a dog are standing so that the line comming from the ischum goes through the hock joint BUT the legs are NOT vertical to the ground it means only one: the angulation is wrong.


Now all people will for sure check their dogs - but the true is pretty sad: really only few Wolfdogs have PERFECT angulation. Most of CzWs are a little bit overangulated - it is not a huge problem if the breeders will make the proper selection. But SAD is that even the extremly overangulated dogs also never get worser notes on the bonitations, dog shows, aso...(In only few cases I saw that a judge gave J5 on the bonitation or worser note on the dogs show. In the most cases the dogs was judges as perfect even if it was angulation like a RABBIT ). Really: almost nobody cares (nobody knows?) about the real angulation of the dogs... And it is the reason for pretty bad situation in this area. It is really worth to start to select it because it have huge influence on the movement (only dog with typical angulation moves like typical CzW). But also the endurance of our dogs depend on it.

Thank you! It's really interesting!!!

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by saschia

But, the question comes from Americas and of course most of the judges there (and in Europe too) have no idea what wolfdogs are supposed to look like and how they are to be presented. I expect that in normal show community, positioning of the dog in "correct posture" and using show leashes with heads held high looks better and more professional than just letting the dog show itself...

It would be so nice.... If we could show the dogs so that all their pluses are visible... The problem ARE the judges. And the breed....
Wolfdogs are in the first group FCI but they vary from other "shepherds". But the judges do not get the difference and they judge our dogs according the same patterns as other breeds - usually GSD. And in such case good wolfdogs ALWAYS have more problems than the untypical dogs. Typical faults for Czechoslovakian come from German Shepherds: wide chests, short legs, angulation in the front 90°, overangulation of the back legs, long ears, heavy heads with open lips... And such fauls are exactly what many "allrounder judges" expect from wolfdogs in the show ring. It is why we have so many untypical Interchampions and Champions...

There is no problem to show your dog if the judge knows the breed - you just go, show the dog and finito... But on other shows you have sometimes to "cheat"....
My first show in Germany. Judge from a country with 0 Wolfdogs... I went into the ring and came out with note "very good" because the top line of my dog was not falling. Our friends who were showing next also had a Wolfdog with good topline... But they had a good idea - they went into the ring. By the statics the owner took the back legs of his dog as far behind as possible (almost to the GSD possition ). The topline started to be falling. They get excellent and BOB...
Similar situation in Slovakia - also an allrounder judge. People who were showing the dog before us were going outside the rings saying "make the front legs wide"... We have done like this and get "good "chest". While other people who where showing their nice dogs on the "normal" way get as fault "to narrow chest"...

But in the most cases you are not able to make your dog WORSER than it is ...

There are MANY problems - where the allrounder judges want to see something what is untypical for Wolfdogs but typical for many other Shepherds:
- with the angulation - that are unhapy when Wolfdogs are not angulated and do not move like GSD
- with the chest - when it is too narrow and not deep enough (do not pass the elbows like by GSD)
- with the legs - that they are too long (even by dogs which still do not have the 55% as written in the standard)
- with the tail (character) - when especially by males it is carried to high (usually when there are other males in the ring)
Example - two males in the ring. One with good character, the second shy. The good one start to pose - tail up - "look, I'm the best". Who wins? - first is "very good" because of the tail - "dog should never carry the tail over the back line" (he lost because of too good character). Won the shy scarred dog. Nobody cares about the standard - "When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape." If you have dog with stable character you will MANY times loose against shy dogs who will carry their tails as "good German Shepherds should do"...

And there are MANY "faults" so typical for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. By some judges you can really win only if you have REALLY untypical dog...

And I don't think it will change since there is no possiblity to influence the judges or to write any protests - and we had really cases when in the evaluation cards there were written almost excepts from the breed standard - but in the breed standard it was description of the PERFECT dog and for the judge it was a list with faults...


______________________
PS. I know that in some countries after the "problems" with the judges the breeders decided to change the... wolfdogs and they breed dogs which are fitting to the judge's expectations. And no more to the breed standard. But....
I know that sometimes it is much harder to win with really good dog who has too many characteristics typical for Czechoslovakian Wolfdog but characteristics not necessarily liked by the allrounder judges.
BUT there are good judges and bad too... The same apply to the club judges - not all of them who have approvement for our breed really know the standard. Some of them don't even have idea how to judge at all... Dog shows are just a sport... Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. But a good dog will stay a good dog independent on the judgements... And good breeders and owners will know it... A dog can be World Winner and Multi-Hiper Champion but still an untypical Wolfdog who nobody want to breed with...

[saschia]

Yes, Margo, you are right that the legs are wrong in the photo
but, the correct posture is not exactly vertical hocks, but only near to vertical. The line that joins the hock joint and the point of ischium should be vertical in correct posture, but the paws of the hind legs are slightly to the front, so the back of the paws can touch the line, not the middle of the paws. The dogs which stand with their hocks vertical to the ground usually have the paws and hock joint positioned behind the point of ischium, or the posture is too steep (or how it is called).

[saschia]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Dog shows are just a sport... Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. But a good dog will stay a good dog independent on the judgements... And good breeders and owners will know it... A dog can be World Winner and Multi-Hiper Champion but still an untypical Wolfdog who nobody want to breed with...

Yes, that's true. But who, when buying a pup, actually cares? Couple of people. The rest takes the champions as they are presented. So they take bad pups from untypical champions and then they are surprised and angry when they get bad marks at our club show or at bonitation...

Anyway, I don't like shows exactly because of this - it is a good occasion to meet people and see their dogs, and make a good name for the breed among general public, but that's it. The show results should not be taken as the indicators of the stud value.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by saschia

The line that joins the hock joint and the point of ischium should be vertical in correct posture, but the paws of the hind legs are slightly to the front, so the back of the paws can touch the line, not the middle of the paws. The dogs which stand with their hocks vertical to the ground usually have the paws and hock joint positioned behind the point of ischium, or the posture is too steep (or how it is called).

Yes, by the second photo of the wolf it is nice visible...

Originally Posted by saschia

Yes, that's true. But who, when buying a pup, actually cares? Couple of people. The rest takes the champions as they are presented. So they take bad pups from untypical champions and then they are surprised and angry when they get bad marks at our club show or at bonitation...

It is an international problem... And after they get bad remarks at your club shows they start to say that Slovakian Club is promoting it's own TYPE of Wolfdogs, and they are breeding their OWN type... And it is NOT possible to explain them that what is "promoted" by the club is just a BREED STANDARD. And if they breed something else... they just breed untypical Wolfdogs...

Originally Posted by saschia

Anyway, I don't like shows exactly because of this - it is a good occasion to meet people and see their dogs, and make a good name for the breed among general public, but that's it. The show results should not be taken as the indicators of the stud value.

Golden Words.... Sometimes I'm really astonish which dogs win by some judges... Sometimes you can really take a photo of such dog and publish it with a description "How Czechoslovakian Wolfdog should NOT look like"...

BUT I like dog shows. Any my dogs are crazy about them. When they see that I pack the show leashes they already wait by the car... Some of them really love to show - to like to be "admired" (usually the males ). Shows are also great for socialization - there is no other place where you can meet so many people, children and dogs... But we go there mainly because of what you wrote - it is nice possibility to meet other people, other dogs. Usually we make that same what you do by you - we combine dogs shows with meetings. If I would go there ony to show the dogs and if I would believe what some judges are saying... I would stop to show a lot time ago already...

[Silvester]

I think that Margo wrote exactly what is indeed the real problem with dog shows and judges !
- If these judges are no experienced judges just for our race.

So i decided to go ONLY to special- shows for Cws .

( PS: I have got new dog "Zeus lupus ibericus" in december 2009 after death of my old one in november 2008 - Zeus now is nearly 9 months old .

I was at a lot of dog -shows in the past, but only as visitor, not as competitor. With my new dog may be i will compete also.)

Thanks to all advices for präsentation in this thread , especially to Margo and saschia !!

Greetings to everyone, Silvester

Margo, I know it's a lot to ask, but would it be possible to do diagrams like that, showing correct and various incorrect structures, for other elements of the standard? This is SUCH a great visual aid for me, it would be a huge help for me to understand the standard correctly! I've seen similar diagrams with other breeds (the most in-depth being for German Shepherd Dogs) and it has helped me so much in the past to develop an eye for correct structure.

Also, thank you SO much for posting all of this, and to everyone else contributing to the thread! It's been helping me greatly to get more of an understanding of how the dogs should be structured and shown.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Vicky

would it be possible to do diagrams like that, showing correct and various incorrect structures, for other elements of the standard?

Maybe this one can help you >>> http://dl.wolfdog.org/files/Articles/en/Czechoslovakian%20Wolfdog.ppt


Very best regards / Mikael

I can't seem to open the file. :/