Limitation of the size

[admin]

Originally Posted by bogdan

She is pretty tall indeed!
But I don't understand what is wrong about the higher height since there is no limitation in the standard regarding the maximum height?

There IS a limitation written in the standard. The FCI breed standard (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/332GB99_en.doc) describe Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as dogs with "above average size". Not "small" and not "huge" - but above average size. As "average size" FCI list breeds where males are about 65cm high. All breeds growing over 70cm are described as HUGE breeds.
So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. Females should be smaller and easy to recognize (+ "Sex should be unmistakable.")


But here we do not speak about standard but about outcrossings. It is typical that outcrosses lead to high dogs. And the mixes with Saarloos proved this - even if the parents were small the puppies were very high dogs. The Crying Wolf kennel was known for years for dogs which hardly reach the minimum size. Now we have mystery litters where dogs grow bigger even than the Czech lines.
The same is visible in France where out of parent of average and above the average size we get dogs (where it is known that they are AWD-crosses) which reach much more that 70cm at early age.

The size is not the only proof but can be another advice that something is really going on in the mentioned lines.

[Hanka]

" So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. "

No. Czechoslovakian wolfdog can have more than 70cm, of course.
Standart is 65 and more......

[Dayen]

Originally Posted by Admin

There IS a limitation written in the standard. The FCI breed standard (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/332GB99_en.doc) describe Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as dogs with "above average size". Not "small" and not "huge" - but above average size. As "average size" FCI list breeds where males are about 65cm high. All breeds growing over 70cm are described as HUGE breeds.
So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. Females should be smaller and easy to recognize (+ "Sex should be unmistakable.")

Such a limit of height is only your construction. You cannot argument by translated words because I see a different meaning there. In Czech Republic, there was never any maximum height limit ment for CSW.

If you have 73 cm male with perfect proportions including the dimorfism, then the male would be perfect. If you have two exactly same males, one with 65cm and one with 73cm (two extremes), the taller one is better for most of the czech breeders and judges.

65cm is a minimum height - so, 65cm for a male and 60cm for a female is permissible, but barely the desirable size.

Truth is, that some bloodlines do have problems to reach the minimum height, but it should not be the reason to tell that it's OK to have so small wolfdogs (as some people do).

[admin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

No. Czechoslovakian wolfdog can have more than 70cm, of course.

With over 70cm you have HUGE breed (like molosses, dogos aso). It do not fit to the CsW standard anymore.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Dayen

If you have 73 cm male with perfect proportions including the dimorfism, then the male would be perfect. If you have two exactly same males, one with 65cm and one with 73cm (two extremes), the taller one is better for most of the czech breeders and judges.

Yes, I heard about it. That the most Czech breeders care only for size - bigger, heavier, stronger is better. Proportion and indexes is something almost unimportant.

But I read already on the forum that you are wrong - that the historical measurements of the Czechoslovakian club were 60cm-65cm for the females and 65cm-70cm for males and it is still listed as STANDARD in the bonitation cards. Also in Czechs. Over 70cm are no more "standard" Wolfdogs but HIGH Wolfdogs (overgrown).

[Hanka]

" That the most Czech breeders care only for size - bigger, heavier, stronger is better. Proportion and indexes is something almost unimportant. "

I live in Czech and I never had seen breeder, who wants have bigger, heavier and stronger wolfdogs. And person who cares only about size. It is nonsens.

72 cm high male is the same standart dog like 67cm dog. Both is standart size. Both on the same level.

Yes, molosses can have more than 70cm. But we speak here about wolfdogs. If is 75cm high czechoslovakian wolfdog which is not heavy, I use him for breeding like 67high male. Why not. Nobody likes heavy wolfdogs.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, molosses can have more than 70cm. But we speak here about wolfdogs. If is 75cm high czechoslovakian wolfdog which is not heavy, I use him for breeding like 67high male. Why not. Nobody likes heavy wolfdogs.

I did not say that the big dogs should not be used for breeding. I just showed that the 67cm are more "in standard" than the 75cm males. It is so according the FCI standard - it is what is written there.
Breeders' preferences are something else.

[Dayen]

Originally Posted by Admin

But I read already on the forum that you are wrong - that the historical measurements of the Czechoslovakian club were 60cm-65cm for the females and 65cm-70cm for males and it is still listed as STANDARD in the bonitation cards. Also in Czechs. Over 70cm are no more "standard" Wolfdogs but HIGH Wolfdogs (overgrown).

I have many bonitation cards from 80's up to today, all of them considering 70+cm males and 68+cm females (80's).

Hanka and I (both Czech breeders), we disagree with you in what you wrote about sizes (proportions, dimorfism, what you wrote about indexes); that's all.

You have your right for your opinion, of course.
But many people here could be interested in different opinion from CZ.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Dayen

I have many bonitation cards from 80's up to today, all of them considering 70+cm males and 68+cm females (80's).

I found this: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=20 It is an old message but it seems very serious to me.

[bogdan]

Originally Posted by Admin

There IS a limitation written in the standard. The FCI breed standard (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/332GB99_en.doc) describe Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as dogs with "above average size". Not "small" and not "huge" - but above average size. As "average size" FCI list breeds where males are about 65cm high. All breeds growing over 70cm are described as HUGE breeds.
So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. Females should be smaller and easy to recognize (+ "Sex should be unmistakable.")


But here we do not speak about standard but about outcrossings. It is typical that outcrosses lead to high dogs. And the mixes with Saarloos proved this - even if the parents were small the puppies were very high dogs. The Crying Wolf kennel was known for years for dogs which hardly reach the minimum size. Now we have mystery litters where dogs grow bigger even than the Czech lines.
The same is visible in France where out of parent of average and above the average size we get dogs (where it is known that they are AWD-crosses) which reach much more that 70cm at early age.

The size is not the only proof but can be another advice that something is really going on in the mentioned lines.

Thats to bad if its so with these kennels.But if the breeders are refusing the DNA tests what about if the new owners of the puppys bought from these kennels do the DNA tests?This could clarify anything?
Also I was wondering if the big size of some CSWs can be due to heritated morphological characteristics from the wild wolfs? In Romania, even the average of wild wolfs population is medium to big size,the huge wild wolfs(over 75cm of height) are not so rare.Well,I'm refering here to the isolated cases of big CSWs and not to that where the average height grew overnight as in some of the kennels.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by bogdan

In Romania, even the average of wild wolfs population is medium to big size,the huge wild wolfs(over 75cm of height) are not so rare.Well,I'm refering here to the isolated cases of big CSWs and not to that where the average height grew overnight as in some of the kennels.

you have crociodiles and not wolves. here we have wolves from europe too and they are no so big. many wolfdogs are bigger.

[bogdan]

Originally Posted by lupis

you have crociodiles and not wolves. here we have wolves from europe too and they are no so big. many wolfdogs are bigger.

Yes,we stil have real forests here despite others.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Dayen

But many people here could be interested in different opinion from CZ.

i see photos of your dogs from you kennel and i think czech breeder have own world and other thinking. i think wolfdogs must be wolfish but czech dogs are zero wolf. maybe some but most are not. you say big dogs are nice and big females too but for me you wrong. i see some female form you kennel and i see no wolf and for me are not female but male in look. and very much heavy




i not see wolf and not see female. you thinki is good breeding so big and different dogs. I not see anyfemale in my country which is so much heavy and other not-wolf in look

[bogdan]

One wolf killed in Romania was recorded to have weighed 72 kilograms (158 pounds).[17] In Italian wolves, excepting the tail, body length ranges between 110–148 cm, while shoulder height is 50–70 cm. Males weigh between 25–35 kg (55-77 lbs) and rarely 45 kg (99 lbs).[18]
Quote from Wikipedia.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by bogdan

while shoulder height is 50–70 cm. Males weigh between 25–35 kg (55-77 lbs) and rarely 45 kg (99 lbs).[18]
Quote from Wikipedia.

is what i see. i not see small wooves like 50cm but never big as more than 70

[Morian]

we measured some wolves from different countries, they are very different. people at us think too that wolf is a big and scareful animal but our measurements showed that european wolves are +/- in standard