Herding?

yukidomari · 18-03-2010, 18:01

I have long wondered this.. because in the FCI the CSV is classified under the Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs category.. are there herding CSVs? I know that in the FCI they have no working trial, but I'd be interested to know what style of herding the CSV employs when compared to the specified herding techniques of, say, ACDs or Aussies? I'd say based on some CSV pictures I've seen, that they'd be pretty good at giving sheep "the eye"!

An Aussie giving sheep the famous Aussie 'eye':
http://www.risingsunfarm.com/images/...eprtlg_000.jpg

michaelundinaeichhorn · 18-03-2010, 23:39

Hi Jing,

mind you, they're definitely giving sheep their famous Czechoslovakian teeth

...

Cheers,
Michael

Enid Black · 19-03-2010, 00:04

Do you mean, doing this?

(not my dog, just an interesting video!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vu1K8QMmZk

draggar · 19-03-2010, 00:13

I'm sure my wife will want to try it.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 19-03-2010, 10:16

Really nice video, but unfortunately this is in no way herding as a proper sheepdog would do it.
I would like to see a wolfdog herding scattered sheep on an open pasture without that extremely tight controlling as seen in this clip.
And the sheep seen here are not controlled by the dog they're paying attention to what the people do, most of the time the dog doesn't seem to know what he's supposed to do.
But nevertheless a nice clip.

Michael

elf · 19-03-2010, 11:11

Thorgal and Etienne: Thorgal video

michaelundinaeichhorn · 19-03-2010, 11:34

Marvelous dog and "work", but still no herding in the sense a herding dog and a professional shepherd would do it.
But anyway, great job and lots of compliments for that.
I think the FCI had to put the CSW somewhere and since the GSD was involved they'd just put them in Group 1.
It had nothing to do with his ability as a herding and even working dog.

Michael

elf · 19-03-2010, 12:07

Some more pics (all Thorgal pics of the contest there: http://larzac.concours.free.fr/Navac...gal/index.html ):

wolfin · 19-03-2010, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Thorgal and Etienne: Thorgal video

great ! very nice video

yukidomari · 19-03-2010, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi Jing,

mind you, they're definitely giving sheep their famous Czechoslovakian teeth

...

Cheers,
Michael

Thanks for the videos! I agree with Michael, though.. it seems that these dogs are taking 'herding' as a obedience (OB) test! Good to know they don't find sheep very yummy, though.

Mikael · 19-03-2010, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think the FCI had to put the CSW somewhere and since the GSD was involved they'd just put them in Group 1.
It had nothing to do with his ability as a herding and even working dog.

Michael

That is what I think...

Saarloos is also in Group 1

Best regards / Mikael

Gypsy Wolf · 19-04-2010, 00:11

So Luna sheep herding for the first time yesterday - I am sure my husband will post the video when he gets around to it. Well, she certainly has drive - though I would say she is a little more predatory than expected for a 16 week old. She did the "good" herding things like "wearing" and "gathering" but she also REALLY wanted some mutton! She kept diving forward to grab a tail - the only reason she didn't get a mouthful is I was able to keep my sheep stick in the way! She is totally full of herself.
We went to a UKC show today for some socializing and was just a love to everyone there. I was happy to see her so extroverted.

yukidomari · 19-04-2010, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

So Luna sheep herding for the first time yesterday - I am sure my husband will post the video when he gets around to it. Well, she certainly has drive - though I would say she is a little more predatory than expected for a 16 week old. She did the "good" herding things like "wearing" and "gathering" but she also REALLY wanted some mutton!

So, are you going to continue with actual herding? What's your prediction?

Is she really cut out for herding, or not really?

Gypsy Wolf · 19-04-2010, 00:57

Well, I am really spoiled when it comes to Herding - my Malinois, Zorro, has only had a handful of lessons (it is 2 hours away and expensive) and is ready to earn his PT title (I worked him yesterday too, he hadn't seen sheep in over a year and a half and even back then he had only about 6 sessions with sheep). Zorro knows what he is doing from Mother Nature - I am just an idiot with a stick! Seriously, Zorro makes me look good!
On the flipside, Luna works like a typical GSD, in my instructor's opinion - and very much like my GSD Kiri. She is a little predatory and bossy with the sheep and will require a firm hand and excellent timing. My instructor usually works my GSD for me, as she has way more experience than I do and she likes a hard dog, so it may end up that she works Luna for me too.
I think it will depend on how frequently I can get to work on stock while Luna is still puppy enough for me to mold - otherwise she will require a more experienced hand.
I like herding but it isn't easy with a dog like Luna. My instructor teases me and calls Zorro "Prince Charming" and "Gentleman Jack" and certainly encourages me to continue on - it will just take longer and more work with Luna than it has with Zorro. And Luna has her won ideas about what we should be doing - she isn't the type of dog that will "lie down" on command if she thinks she should be moving the stock. Zorro is obedient enough so that I have time to "catch up" to his sheep smarts, but Luna will not give me that - she will do things HER way. So I have to learn faster and figure out how to reward her with sheep or remove them from her when she does something wrong. She will take every opportunity to get what she wants, to heck with me. I predict a few shredded tails, and lower legs before I am quick enough to compensate...

Gypsy Wolf · 19-04-2010, 01:27

http://www.youtube.com/draggardevir#p/a/u/2/Zcqo6XHzpRI

Here she is Herding!

yukidomari · 19-04-2010, 01:48

Very interesting video! I am very surprised that Luna doesn't show more interest in the sheep initially. Thanks for sharing! Look forward to more videos.

Gypsy Wolf · 19-04-2010, 01:58

Remember, she is only 16 weeks old, and a lot of her "lack of interest" in the video is actually her offering "calming signals" (looking away, pretend sniffing, moving toward them sideways to be polite) to the sheep. Never having seen them before, she was not sure how to "communicate" with them, so she used "polite dog" language. Not to mention all the smells of the other dogs, sheep pee, and more importantly, sheep POO.
Disgusting, but true, she thought of the pasture as a salad bar - she ate at least a pound of sheep poo. So, there was FRESH poo in the round pen (hey, they are running Pez dispensers, mom!) to eat, as well.
And what exactly are we doing, mom? What are they?
Once she realized THEY moved if she chased them, she was all about that new-found power. It was the first time in her life that something bigger than her DIDN'T correct her rudeness! And they RAN AWAY so enticingly! And they have tug toys attached to their butts, too!

yukidomari · 19-04-2010, 02:05

I forgot about the sheep poo.

Yeah............ there was a horse that passed through our park this morning and left some gifts and the two pinshers would NOT leave it alone. Much more interesting, course.

Angelika · 19-04-2010, 02:18

Yes, very interesting. One day Luna will eat them all loooooooool

No, seriously: don´t you have the possibility to do "mantrailing" with Luna? CsW are really predestinated for that.

Cheers
Angelika

Gypsy Wolf · 19-04-2010, 02:36

I do Schutzhund with her - one of the phases is Tracking, so yes, she has learned to Track. Her favorite thing is bitework, though. She wants to GRAB the man!

18-03-2010, 18:01	#1
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Herding? I have long wondered this.. because in the FCI the CSV is classified under the Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs category.. are there herding CSVs? I know that in the FCI they have no working trial, but I'd be interested to know what style of herding the CSV employs when compared to the specified herding techniques of, say, ACDs or Aussies? I'd say based on some CSV pictures I've seen, that they'd be pretty good at giving sheep "the eye"! An Aussie giving sheep the famous Aussie 'eye': http://www.risingsunfarm.com/images/...eprtlg_000.jpg

18-03-2010, 23:39	#2
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Hi Jing, mind you, they're definitely giving sheep their famous Czechoslovakian teeth... Cheers, Michael Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 18-03-2010 at 23:45.

19-03-2010, 00:13	#4
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	I'm sure my wife will want to try it. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

19-03-2010, 11:11	#6
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Thorgal and Etienne: Thorgal video __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 19-03-2010 at 11:13.

19-03-2010, 12:07	#8
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Some more pics (all Thorgal pics of the contest there: http://larzac.concours.free.fr/Navac...gal/index.html ): __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 19-03-2010 at 12:35.

19-03-2010, 10:16	#5
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Really nice video, but unfortunately this is in no way herding as a proper sheepdog would do it. I would like to see a wolfdog herding scattered sheep on an open pasture without that extremely tight controlling as seen in this clip. And the sheep seen here are not controlled by the dog they're paying attention to what the people do, most of the time the dog doesn't seem to know what he's supposed to do. But nevertheless a nice clip. Michael

19-03-2010, 11:34	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Marvelous dog and "work", but still no herding in the sense a herding dog and a professional shepherd would do it. But anyway, great job and lots of compliments for that. I think the FCI had to put the CSW somewhere and since the GSD was involved they'd just put them in Group 1. It had nothing to do with his ability as a herding and even working dog. Michael

19-04-2010, 00:11	#12
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	So Luna sheep herding for the first time yesterday - I am sure my husband will post the video when he gets around to it. Well, she certainly has drive - though I would say she is a little more predatory than expected for a 16 week old. She did the "good" herding things like "wearing" and "gathering" but she also REALLY wanted some mutton! She kept diving forward to grab a tail - the only reason she didn't get a mouthful is I was able to keep my sheep stick in the way! She is totally full of herself. We went to a UKC show today for some socializing and was just a love to everyone there. I was happy to see her so extroverted.

19-04-2010, 00:57	#14
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well, I am really spoiled when it comes to Herding - my Malinois, Zorro, has only had a handful of lessons (it is 2 hours away and expensive) and is ready to earn his PT title (I worked him yesterday too, he hadn't seen sheep in over a year and a half and even back then he had only about 6 sessions with sheep). Zorro knows what he is doing from Mother Nature - I am just an idiot with a stick! Seriously, Zorro makes me look good! On the flipside, Luna works like a typical GSD, in my instructor's opinion - and very much like my GSD Kiri. She is a little predatory and bossy with the sheep and will require a firm hand and excellent timing. My instructor usually works my GSD for me, as she has way more experience than I do and she likes a hard dog, so it may end up that she works Luna for me too. I think it will depend on how frequently I can get to work on stock while Luna is still puppy enough for me to mold - otherwise she will require a more experienced hand. I like herding but it isn't easy with a dog like Luna. My instructor teases me and calls Zorro "Prince Charming" and "Gentleman Jack" and certainly encourages me to continue on - it will just take longer and more work with Luna than it has with Zorro. And Luna has her won ideas about what we should be doing - she isn't the type of dog that will "lie down" on command if she thinks she should be moving the stock. Zorro is obedient enough so that I have time to "catch up" to his sheep smarts, but Luna will not give me that - she will do things HER way. So I have to learn faster and figure out how to reward her with sheep or remove them from her when she does something wrong. She will take every opportunity to get what she wants, to heck with me. I predict a few shredded tails, and lower legs before I am quick enough to compensate...

19-04-2010, 01:27	#15
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	http://www.youtube.com/draggardevir#p/a/u/2/Zcqo6XHzpRI Here she is Herding! Last edited by Gypsy Wolf; 19-04-2010 at 01:27. Reason: Add description of video

19-04-2010, 01:48	#16
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Very interesting video! I am very surprised that Luna doesn't show more interest in the sheep initially. Thanks for sharing! Look forward to more videos.

19-04-2010, 01:58	#17
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Remember, she is only 16 weeks old, and a lot of her "lack of interest" in the video is actually her offering "calming signals" (looking away, pretend sniffing, moving toward them sideways to be polite) to the sheep. Never having seen them before, she was not sure how to "communicate" with them, so she used "polite dog" language. Not to mention all the smells of the other dogs, sheep pee, and more importantly, sheep POO. Disgusting, but true, she thought of the pasture as a salad bar - she ate at least a pound of sheep poo. So, there was FRESH poo in the round pen (hey, they are running Pez dispensers, mom!) to eat, as well. And what exactly are we doing, mom? What are they? Once she realized THEY moved if she chased them, she was all about that new-found power. It was the first time in her life that something bigger than her DIDN'T correct her rudeness! And they RAN AWAY so enticingly! And they have tug toys attached to their butts, too!

19-04-2010, 02:05	#18
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	I forgot about the sheep poo. Yeah............ there was a horse that passed through our park this morning and left some gifts and the two pinshers would NOT leave it alone. Much more interesting, course.

19-04-2010, 02:18	#19
Angelika Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 847	Yes, very interesting. One day Luna will eat them all loooooooool No, seriously: don´t you have the possibility to do "mantrailing" with Luna? CsW are really predestinated for that. Cheers Angelika

19-04-2010, 02:36	#20
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I do Schutzhund with her - one of the phases is Tracking, so yes, she has learned to Track. Her favorite thing is bitework, though. She wants to GRAB the man!