Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Priska182

Personally I prefer the scientific point of view on this matter than the “Mixes possibility”...

So do I and I suppose, everybody here! Confirmation of this hypothesis would save a lot of trouble, costs, worries, efforts and maybe even some dogs' lives We should keep our fringers crossed when the DNA tests will be carried out.

Originally Posted by Priska182

I have some difficulties to understand why some big breeders, supposedly like Crying Wolf, “would do” mixes between Saarloos and CsV... and after that be oblige to cheat on their dogs pedigree...
I can understand (but don’t agree) why some “neo breeder” will be tempted to try this kind of thing... But one more time, why cheating after that?...

That's exactly why some people suppose it might have been just an "accident". The question is, if the breeder didn't know about it (saarlos/CSV pups could be almost identical with CSV pups), or knew and deliberately cheated on pedigrees. I prefer to belive in the first hypothesis. The wilingness to cooperate in order to research and explain the problem would be the best test for the affected breeders/owners honesty and goodwill and, in the long run, would be in their best interest

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo.

We know by experience in the breed (high inbreeding level) that the probability have to be ultra low, IMHO in this case with all associated problems around, this should not be researched as first evidences.

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

- Maybe, Daniela will determine if there Saarloos in these 3 dogs ?

This is difficult as if you don't fit a current research program, universities won't put a cent on this. So right now the effort should be put on DNA parentage testing.
Won't breeding clubs, with help of law(?), could help going in this direction ? Implication regarding number of offspring is scaring...

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

An interesting part in the paper, the fact that the authors did not consider for "Grackle" case a de novo mutation possibility could show their thinking about the time scale of those kind of mutation is not so short:

"It is not sur-prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in
black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back."

[saschia]

Originally Posted by elf

Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back.

How many generations in CSW? I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

Between the creation of the breed and nowadays, there was at least one bottleneck, maybe several, that caused high relatedness in the breed. Such a visible trait, as the red/brown color is, would be noticed before, if it came from GSD, no?

And de novo mutations do occur all the time, we just usually do not see them. Maybe the authors of the paper did not take them into account just because the dog that had the unusual allele, was related to brown animals in just a few generations back. And may it was a mistake not to take possibility of de novo mutation, but it actually was not the scope of the paper to ponder the origins of the mutations, but only their presence and mechanism of their action.

But, the testing for the color allele would say a lot I think, so that's the fastest way to get any answers regarding Thalia and Sibir right now. If they do not find the mutations tested nowadays, that will tell us something. If they find the one that is also present in SAV, that tells us something too. If they find two different mutations, that again tells us a lot.

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

But this is not the point, the point is to know if the line is clean or not (blaming X or Y is another topic) and how to proceed for checks. In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.

Furthermore, those red puppies are only one of the "anomalies" we have in the line, I guess you saw some other pics Margo put. With the huge number of offsprings of this line, the impact in the breed as a whole is really important and should be investigated as best as possible the sooner possible.

[saschia]

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

[Silvester]

Originally posted by elf :
"In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it."

Hmmm....interesting...!

Originally posted by saschia :
"I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers..."

Yeah, you are right - such breeder SHOULD BE able to do so, no question!

[Hanka]

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

Scientifically, there may be a reliable, to make comparative DNA with the genetic map of personal Crying Wolf Thalia (daughter of Mona and Falko) ??

If so, I thank in advance all those who have taken the step to want to help me understand

Merci Hanka de tous les efforts que vous faites et de votre soutien ...

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by elf

when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.
.

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Attention, first of all I never said it was a male! I even pointed that, for what I could understand, it was a neuthered female of C.Keiser...
It was after the birth of the red pups, when I've warned Mr.capiez Frank by phone about Volos (among others) and he told me it was an male (neuthered)

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Suite .....Après de longues recherches, j'ai retrouvé une photo où on apperçoit le chien (ou la chienne ?) en question en arrière plan de Sibir ....(photo datée de mai 2007, date à laquelle j'ai été le chercher)
Je ne parviens pas (comme déjà expliqué dans un précédent post à déterminer si c'est un mâle ou une femelle) mais c'est bien un saarloos roux !


Continuing.. After a long search I've found an photo where appear the dog in question at the background, behind of Sibir. ( the date of the photo is May. 2007).
I cant (as already explained in the previous post, to determine if that's an male or a female) but it's an red Saarloos.

[elf]

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Suite .....Après de longues recherches, j'ai retrouvé une photo où on apperçoit le chien (ou la chienne ?) en question en arrière plan de Sibir ....(photo datée de mai 2007, date à laquelle j'ai été le chercher)
Je ne parviens pas (comme déjà expliqué dans un précédent post à déterminer si c'est un mâle ou une femelle) mais c'est bien un saarloos roux !

It's a male, you can see the testicle at the photo you posted.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by elf

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

knew I was not dreaming and that I had seen red Saarloos, from this breeder, I will not pretend to yesteryear, it is the same as your pictures (or even year) because I simply do not know ....

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

It's a male, you can see the testicle at the photo you posted.

Moi je ne vois pas assez nettement des testicules pour affirmer celà........je préfère donc rester prudente....

I cant see quite clearly the testicles in this photo to say this, then I prefer remain cautious.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Moi je ne vois pas assez nettement des testicules pour affirmer celà........je préfère donc rester prudente....

I think this photo can solve our problem.

[elf]

This Saarloos is Dvorak de Louba Tar. Not sterilized at the time of the picture as you can see here (had offspring in dec 2007):

https://www.saarloosuvvlcak-miraja.cz/products/vrh-a/
http://saarloos.webnode.cz/products/...aarloosu-v-cr/

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by elf

This Saarloos is Dvorak de Louba Tar. Not sterilized at the time of the picture as you can see here (had offspring in dec 2007):

https://www.saarloosuvvlcak-miraja.cz/products/vrh-a/
http://saarloos.webnode.cz/products/...aarloosu-v-cr/

If Dvorak also had other Saarloos litters, is it possible for DNA test to be carried out on Saarloos offspring to find some familial ties to questioned Vlcaks?

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I think this photo can solve our problem.

For me a photograph is not enough .... it may be a track and it is in any case for evidence that I have not told anything, when I said that I had seen a Saarloos ..... but otherwise, only the results of a DNA test to be conclusive evidence to my eyes .....
or by comparing the DNA of Rambo, Sibir and Thalia, who was sent to Daniela
or with the help of people who have dogs, whose DNA can also be compared ....
is of course, with the consent of the owner Galiba (if it were to change his mind)
or concrete information from the breeder ....,

I do not know what basis of scientific research will be preferred and will get replies unassailable, but one thing is certain, I do no fies a photo to pretend that I have found irrefutable proof

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I think this photo can solve our problem.

En effet, sur cette photo grossie, je vois mieux .....