Tamaskan Dogs..

[Rona]

Sorry Christian, but it's you who don't understand what I'm writing.

I never said that my experience with wolfdogs was big. In reaction to your repeated claim that it's impossible to raise a CSV so that he/she would be able to run unleashed and play with other dogs when adult, I'm just describing what I've seen with my own eyes: the owners of Argo od Starkej, Kanti Radov Dvor, Evan Braterstwo Wilczakow, etc. can recall their dogs when they need when the dogs are running on public meadows. In other words, your statement is not 100% valid. But since you seem to be deaf to arguments, further discussion is a waste of time

I don't think it matters if the dogs've been raised in the city or in the countryside, but how they're raised, what the priorities of the owners were, how much effort they put in training and it also depends on the character of a specific individual. I never said that it was easy or natural for CSV to act golden retrievers.

[XWOLFX]

Hello everyone,
I have been very interested in this thread and although it was sometime ago I thought I would register on this forum and comment on it. A little background information about me first, I absolutely love wolves but living in California is not the best place to own or even see a wolf. I am looking to buy my first Tamaskan Dog for their close resemblance and their laid back personalities and are very easy to train. Other important qualities are that they are a bigger type dog and are very active and love the outdoors such as myself.
I have been and am still researching about the breed trying to find out as much as possible about their background. Someone mentioned the name of Bluestag and about the TDR, Tamaskan Dog Register. I found this website to be interesting and maybe useful or not to others http://tamaskantruth.com
As for me, which is bias, I am thankful for the Tamaskan line. I can get the dog I have dreamed of without bringing all of the "real wolf" blood line qualities with it. Please let me know of any information or concerns you may have

[Tazer]

Ah yes, I remember that website.

Reminds me that one of the main people responsible for it some time ago said they have actual proof of there being wolf in the TDR tamaskan lines.
They also said that they would provide the proof, for all to see.

Now, as the proof has to my knowledge never been provided to back up their claim, it gives me two reasons to play with as to why this is:

1. They've got the universes slowest scanner.

2. They were talking a load of bs and never had the proof to begin with.

Which do you all think is most likely?

They complain about the possible use of csvs and high content wolfdogs in the tamaskan lines, but are quite happy to try and use some of these dogs themselves.

Pot, kettle, black.


Taz

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Tazer

Now, as the proof has to my knowledge never been provided to back up their claim, it gives me two reasons to play with as to why this is:

Tazer - As of last year a dog out of a Blustag kennel litter was proven by DNA link to be the progeny of the F1 wolfdog Valko aka Whitefang, as stated by Tuuli at post #2 (with scans of the DNA results).

As I understand the complaint is transparency, or lack thereof, not that wolfdogs are not to be used per se.

[hanninadina]

Taz, please check this out and I know some finish people who saw the developement of these F1 and F 2 animals, children from Boogie and Husky Blondie personally and I know some of the dogs.

So, please check this out:

The person behind the "No Wolf Tamaskan" -website is Tuuli Kontio (former Salmi), who helped Lynn Hardey (former Sharkey; the English woman / breeder of Blustag -kennels) to buy the dogs from Reijo Jaaskelainen @ Polarspeed kennels.
While Lynn lived in Finland, they were friends with Tuuli.
Lynn bought and owned Valko and his sister "Henki" (nowadays Jodie at Blustag) while living in Finland, but though she imported Henki (Jodie) into UK with her when she moved back there, she left Valko behind. Valko went to a Finnish wolfdog breeder, who made several litters out of him. From one litter Lynn picked up a puppy and imported to UK. She strictly told the breeder not to ever tell anyone she bought a puppy out of that litter.

There is no doubt that Valko is a son of Boogie. Also the DNA tests that were made of Valko and a Tamaskan dog imported to Finland (bred by Lynn in UK) were made in the same laboratory in Finland, that makes the official DNA testing for Finnish Kennel Club. It is absurd to claim that the test was manipulated / incorrect, since it is in no way possible to manipulate those tests in that laboratory. And how in eart they could have gotten a positive test result here in FIN, if the true parents of that particular Tamaskan dog truly were in UK? To get a positive result, they would have had to get a sample of the parents; in other case it would have been a negative result. If the sire is not Valko, who sent the sample of the "real sire" from UK to the Finnish laboratory? :-D)))
The breeder Reijo Jaaskelainen @ Polarspeed -kennels has also verified that Valko is from a litter out of Boogie & Blondy av Vargevass, and Boogie has several other offspring that look exactly like Valko. I know this since I have seen with my own eyes and I have pictures of them too. Valko's mother was a light grey, pure bred working line Siberian Husky (imported from Norway to Finland; Blondy av Vargevass).
In the litter she had with Boogie, the phenotype of the offspring varied from wolfy to less wolfy. And as knowing genetics, it is no wonder! Valko looked more like a giant Husky/short haired Malamute (without a curly tail) with yellow eyes, but his behaviour was very wolfy, and he has passed on this behaviour also as other wolfy traits.
Some individuals are very wolfy. They have alot features from Boogie, like for example my own Woogie (son of Valko; grand son of Boogie)! If you compare my Woogie and Boogie you will find lots of similarities.

Since Boogie is originally imported from US (Alaska) from the place called Wolfcountry USA that has done high content wolfdog & wolf breeding over several decades, no-one can for sure tell if he is a "pure" wolf (are there really "pure wolves" anywhere in the world; especially in US??). For what I have understood of color genetics, pure white coloring is a recessive trait and therefore it must come from both parents.

Valko was pure white since birth; like Huskies.

Knowing this one could assume that Boogie is not entirely "pure wolf"; that he has to carry the pure white gene to pass it forward.
... are there even such a thing as a pure wolf? We allready know where the black phase coloring to wolves came from. We all know that during their existence the wolf and the dog has ALWAYS mix bred. Where goes the fine line what we should call "pure" and what not?

And even though we would not call Boogie a pure wolf, but a high content wolfdog, it does not change the fact that while having his offspring in their breeding program of Tamaskan dogs, they are lying when claiming they are 'wolfy looking dogs without the wolf''. -You cannot breed animals like Boogie to dogs and sell them as "wolfy looking without wolf"! They are wolfdogs; and of a pretty decent content too!
It is the same problem with the FCI recognized breeds the CsV and Saarloos; if you mix them with wolves / wolfdogs you should not lie to the buyers/owners.
I would totally understand mixing under a superviced breeding program. But when random breeders do it with dishonest ways, it is a hazard to both the dogs and the buyers that are unaware and miss quided of what they are really buying.

I do understand that the people who allready own and breed Tamaskan dogs, are trying to deny the wolf content in their animals, since it was illegal to own such (lower than F5) in UK.
But the truth must be out there for the sake of all the people who are thinking of getting a Tamaskan pup. Most people who take Tamaskans, take them because they want a wolfy dog WITHOUT wolf content. It is not right that what they get is a big fat lie.

And it makes absolutely sence because in former times wolfdogs were not allowed to have in great britain. From 2009 wolfdogs from F 3 are allowed.

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife...waa/hybrid.htm

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife...a-wolfdogs.pdf

But by the way, this is a czechoslovakian wolfdog forum and not about Tamaskan.

christian

[Tazer]

Interesting posts thank you. I do live in the uk so was aware of DEFRA's view change with regards to Csvs Swhs and hybrids, but thanks for pointing it out anyway.

Its just so confusing and frustraiting, I've been researching the erm wolf look alike types for several years and the lies, cover ups, half truths, U turns and the apparent pedigree fakings/alterings make it hard to outright believe or not believe anyone.

For an example, in the mid 90s their was a programme on the tv in the uk, a dog was on who's owner claimed him to be an F4 hybrid. Upon being investigated by DEFRA (called something else back then but can't remember what) the dog over night became not a hybrid, so did all the owners other dogs. The owner got off on a technicality and her dogs went on to be called northern inuits, which also apparently have no added wolf content. Yet one of the founder stud dogs, was the very same dog she refered to as an F4 hybrid on the tv.

I recall watching the programme at the time vaguely and have seen it again more recently, it was posted on another forum and is probably still there somewhere.

But yes this is a Csv forum and I should get back to lurking in the csv sections lol. Whilst hoping that one day the uk will get some good, ethical breeders that want to see the breed thrive hear, instead of just a tool to mix with whatever to make money.


Taz

[miran]

I have no proof of that there is wolf or hybrid in the Tamaskan but I know there is CVs in there and I am the one who has the proof for the SwH.
Why didn't I put that up on internet, just simple I like the breed Tamaskan no matter if it is in there or not.

I just think that people should know but it doesn't make the dogs any less and the thinks about easier to train etc is still true..... so why is all that fighting about it necessary???
Am I ok with that they made false pedigree's? No of course I am not but we all know every breed have issues like that and you just have to know witch breeder you have to take.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by miran

I have no proof of that there is wolf or hybrid in the Tamaskan but I know there is CVs in there and I am the one who has the proof for the SwH.
Why didn't I put that up on internet, just simple I like the breed Tamaskan no matter if it is in there or not.

I just think that people should know but it doesn't make the dogs any less and the thinks about easier to train etc is still true..... so why is all that fighting about it necessary???
Am I ok with that they made false pedigree's? No of course I am not but we all know every breed have issues like that and you just have to know witch breeder you have to take.

Miran, I had wondered if you were the owner of Djoser van Rijnecker Hof!

I don't think the dogs are "any less".. I just don't think it's any way to go about building a 'breed' - in the truest sense of the word, establishing traits that breed true to type - which isn't really possible when the pedigrees are not true and when there are random and secret outcrosses that are covered up by the pedigree issuing body.. Yes, there are dishonest breeders in every breed, but like this?

Surely they are nice dogs though, like all dogs. There is one that is enrolled in obedience class taught by my friend here in the USA.

[miran]

Hi

I agree with you and that is why I and others asked and talked about it that it was better to let it be in the open.
It is also why I am no longer with the TDR anymore
And yes Djoser v rijneckerhof is my Saarloos and I also have a Tamaskan son out of that nest from it. But I have his real pedigree.
No the dog is no lesser to me because I still think it was a good match if the truth was told about it. What is said on the nofable site that he was a known carrier of DM is not true because we all know that the test for DM for the Saarloos came late 2009 and the pups where already born than. I tested the father and his son later that same year on it and that was the first time we knew. Later it turned out the mother was also a carrier.
Yes this all was very sad but because I tested against what some wanted and advised they know it is in every breed and so they can prevent sufferers like we also try in the Saarloos and the CvS.

I do not condemn every TDR breeder because there are that didn't know about this all and don't agree with it either but doesn't condemn the breed for it. I do also not. I still love the tamaskan for the goal they had in mind and made in my eyes I just can not agree with lying about some lines.

[Tazer]

I'd wondered why you hadn't been round the Tamaskan forum lately. I do miss looking at pics of your gorgeous dogs. I did suspect that this was the reason, you were the only one I could think of who owned a saarloos.

I don't think the dogs are any lesser, Tamaskan sound and look like really great dogs. After the amount of times I've heard of breeders within the various wolf lookalike types, finding issues only to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that if they ignore it, it will just magicly go away, its nice to see a group being open about the health issue and taking steps to deal with it.

My only concern with using a Saarloos would be their tendancy towards shyness, nice looking dogs though, but don't think the Swh is the right breed for me.

Taz

[miran]

I also do not find every Saarloos line an addition to the breed. In temprement I do can say I found him at the time good for that because he isn't shy at all and all of his kids are also not shy at all(Saarloos kids as well)
Not every Saarloos line is shy

And believe me that also the TDR and the TBA had struggles about being open with health issues but I am glad that these days that is going better.

I'd wondered why you hadn't been round the Tamaskan forum lately. I do miss looking at pics of your gorgeous dogs. I did suspect that this was the reason, you were the only one I could think of who owned a saarloos.

thanks but yes that is one of the reasons but my dogs pics can also been seen on my own website

[Tazer]

Nice to read your saarloos isn't shy and that neither is his offspring. The picture that has been painted of the saarloos breed over here is that they're almost all shy and or nervous of unfamiliar people and environments. But then I suspect that is because the dogs that were imported over here (if they are indeed pure saarloos), appeared to be under handled and poorly socialised.

Infact, the original importer described them as all being at various stages of feral. One escaped and gave birth to a pup in a den out in the woods and another was shot because of agression. The escaped one and her pup were recaptured, I've no idea how the pup is doing but from what I last heard, the mother was settled in her home. She was rehomed from the original breeder/owner a couple of years ago now.

Ref tamaskans

Yes I was aware that there wasn't always the same level of transparency with regards to health issues as there is today. The past can't be changed but the future can.

Taz