Czech Mutara-Gate - Page 3

fenris · 17-09-2004, 10:32

To Pavel:
You think HD is the cause of the mutara crossings. I dont know if the hight incidence of HD is a x-ray phenomenon, or if an increasing number of CsW really suffer functional handicaps. If the latter is the case I understand the wish to add new blood. But due to your experience and also scientific investigation X ray results of HD are often false positive. If so this crossings can be an act of rush.

To Mijke:
If for any reason the mutara crossing is a positive add to our breed; I fully agree that it should take at least 3 generations of proper selection BEFORE the dogs fluxed into the registry of CsW. It is wrong to register another breed directly.

To Przemek:
I understand your practical argument. Because CsW have already been banned in Norway according to new law on "dog-keeping". The arguments against CsW was not only wolfblood but also its history and trainability as an attacking dog. The Saarlooswolfhond is yet not banned despite its wolf-blood becaust it is believed to be calmer and friendler and of no use in attacking. But new wolf-blood in the CsW will no doubt make it impossible to ever approve CsW in Norway - and even in other countries. So this is a good argument against the mutara-crossings.

You mentioned the strict selection by the army in the beginning of CsW history. My impression is that the Checks and Slovakans still practice good selection on function through their bonitation and training practices. Maybe strict show-breeding is the biggest threat to the breed??

To Margo:
I agree that there is a difference between european and canadian wolves. It is also difference between european wolves. But - if you want to improve HD I cannot see why canadian wolf would be contra-indicated. You must remember that by doing so we must breed back to CsW-lines anyway. The results will be CsW in the end - with improved hips if selected properly. We need not end up with canadian wolf characteristics.
See article on "backcross projedt" on Dalmatians (outcross with a pointer) to improve health. http://www.canine-genetics.com (scroll down to The Backcross Project). By the way; you will find a lot of informative articles on Canine Diversity Homepage.

fenris

fenris · 17-09-2004, 10:59

Suski:

Yes, this is a sad truth. First of all wolf-crosses are illeagal through law. The checkoslovakan wolfdog is illeagal because of too reacent wolf-crossing and its ability to attack. Saarlooswolfhond has been spared to now, but the breed has many enemies who tries to ban it. Just say :"wolf" and its like putting gasoline on fire.

Margo:

You quoted a text from the NVVSWH about timberwolf-blood in SWH. I have excactly (by word) the same text in a book; The Encyclopeida of the Dog by Bruce Folge. I also beleived this till I consulted reputable breeders and folks knowing the breed for decenials. They reject it. But there can be a difference between the NVVSWH dogs and the dogs bred outside the Club. Maybe this is the cause of the inimical stands between Club-members and outsiders in this breed. CsW-breeders have something to learn here. SWH is a small breed with very limited dogs, lines and founder-animals. And the breed is split in 2 groups (Club-group and liberal-group) that cannot cooperate - even when the breed suffer serious hereditary health problemes (vz PRA).

fenris

saschia · 17-09-2004, 11:23

Fenris - civilian breeders cannot select as effectively as the army - in army, dog-keeper is told to keep a dog or put it away and he has to obey. In civilian life, you can only suggest and as you dont provide the money, you cannot expect people do something that does not suit them. Of course, we have done a lot of work with improving the breeds character - you can see it clearlyu at our meeting, but we are already working with previously selected population.

Second thing against mutaras is that now we have CsV, which can be used as a partner for breeding with wolf, we dont need GSD with unknown origin. Also the popular belief of "blood dilution" is a very simplified view - if it worked, we would now have normal GSD. As we are now fighting recessive traits which came from GSD (HD is probably one of them, if it really is not present in wolves), the same way we would be fighting unwanted traits from canadian wolf. So use of canadian - GSD cross is quite bad, especially if we have CsV and carpathian wolves.

There was an argument, that no crossing of CsV and carpathian wolf worked - but how many were tried? If we want to do experiments, we have to prepare them. And we have to try out one solution as long as it takes to prove it is impossible (though, of course nothing can be proved in science

). Now as the crossing of dog with carpathian worked once, you cannot say that easily it is not possible.

Also popular is that Mr. Hartl is standing behind this. But CsV is not only Mr. Hartl's work. Mjr Rosik did a lot of work with the breed and we have to thank him that the breed was not exterminated when it proved it was not that suitable for army as was first expected. Slovak club did a lot of work and is the garant for FCI and should have some say in this too, BEFORE any experiments start. And, any dog resulting from experiment should be showed internationally, and judged by people that have at least no connections with their producers and supporters. If the people that want mutaras also judge mutaras, how can we know that they really are good for the breed?

Laura/Vlad · 17-09-2004, 15:59

Hi to everibody,
first of all I've to say that, as my English is not perfect, it's possible I,ve not understood perfectly all the discussions. So, before speek about the CWD, only a answer, in many magazines or books about dogd here in Italy, it's written that the SWD is a crossbreed between GSD and siberian wolf (in a magazine is written tha it suffer warm temperature because its siberian origin); what is the truth, there is a differente between carpatian and siberian wolf?
About CWD, as I'm a neophyte of these breed, and as there is a very little literature about it in Italian (a little book from the Italian club, that written from MR. Hartl is out of print from long time), all I know is what I've found on internet, but I Know that from when the breed was recogniced from FCI in 80', it's forbidden to improve the breed with wolf blood.
How this "dog" has the pedigree?
I also agree with all that say that as the problems that have actually the English owners, why use other wolf in breeding? Also in Italy we have many problems for all the breed of "big" dogs. I can speak only about our ministers here in Italy, and as a lot of them haven' t never had, or seen, o dog in their life, if they know that somebody cross dogs with wolves at present time, and sell them, I only imagine what will happen, a mess!!! (isn' t that so Stefano and Massimo?)
It's really necessary to use new blood? It won't better to control the pairing off (it's right? I don't know the exact word) of the all CWD we have?

saschia · 17-09-2004, 17:00

Laura/Vlad - there is no siberian wolf in CsW. Difference between siberian wolves and carpathian ones are quite small, but these tqo subspecies evolved separately for quite long time. By the way, I don't think siberian origin would make wolf descendants feel bad in warmer climates (I mean southern Europe, of course Sahara is bit different

), because there is also a warm weather in Siberia (even warmer sometimes than in middle europe), only winters are harsher than here. And I think CsW suffers less in hot weather than most of other long-coated breeds. The coat is quite good isolation against warmth, either.

It is true, that since 1982, when the stud-book was registered, no mixing with wolf or other dog breed shoul take place (at least such puppies shouldn't be registered). But there is this problem - Mutaras are registered in "help register" which should be used for dog which are not registered, but which have all the properties of the breed and could be helpful in next breeding. So they can be used for breeding and after 4 generations their puppies can get registered normally, if all the generations were typical for that breed (no unwanted characteristic occured). So, if Mutaras get good marks (no matter who judges them, just it has to be recognized judge), their progeny in 4th generation could get into the stud book.

Laura/Vlad · 17-09-2004, 22:03

For Saschia,
sorry but I lead you into error, writing SWD I meaned Saarlos wolfdog, and I have only translated what was written in the magazine.
In the Italian post there is now a translation of an article of Mr. Hartl; ok, I've quite understood now, it's a sort of an experiment, but how can it be compareted in a dogshow with CWD? It had to be presented alone, not in comparison with other breed, it is the only one; this is my opinion, i don't want to convince anyone, I only ask because I'm very ignorant.
Only one thing, then I'll go, my old vet, yaers ago, said me that the HD problem, that all the "big" dogs have not only GSD (at that time he and I didn' t know anything about CWD), descend from wolves.
Is this true?

Pavel · 19-09-2004, 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

Also popular is that Mr. Hartl is standing behind this. But CsV is not only Mr. Hartl's work. Mjr Rosik did a lot of work with the breed and we have to thank him...

Basicaly have no sense today speaking about the founders of breed or each persons. CsW is today FCI recognised breed and so that this breed own all breeders and owners of CsW. And all this people have the right to be inform and asking about agreement by such most important steps for the whole breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefano

It seems that if isn't there "agreement of recognition" that lupina is a "wolf" and Armin is a "GSD Mix" this experiment of CZ kennel club agree with FCI rules and should be recognized by other kennel clubs.

Yes, but whats a most shamy si, that in oficially apply form of Mutara litter is by "Father" written "Armin (CsW without pedigree)" !!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

In the Italian post there is now a translation of an article of Mr. Hartl; ok, I've quite understood now, it's a sort of an experiment, but how can it be compareted in a dogshow with CWD?

In the oficially formulation of breeding committee of CZ Club from 15.9.2003 is written (I put here the original czech text, which you can found on http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=294 :
"Pokud budou køí¾enci splòovat podmínky standardu ÈSV, budou posouzeni na chovném svodu a bonitaci a zúèastní se mimo soutì¾ i klubových a spec. výstav ÈSV."

English :
"When will the hybrids meet expectations of CsW standard, will be valuate on youth presentation and bonitation and also take a participation, out of contest, on club and special shows of CsW."

Here you can see, how manipulated is whole situation. "Out of contest" means for Mutara fanatics, that simply participating on shows in normally show calsses and get normally show titels. This people simply made a rules, which themselves counteracting.

Pavel · 19-09-2004, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Sometimes one must be gentle and quiet-mannered to be able to achieve ones goals - as all noise attracts enemies.
Maybe this discussion hurts the breed more than the supposed mischief done?

Dear fenris,
I think, that open discussion and publication of real dates cant hurts anything. We dont want hidden any informations about our dogs. We want introduce true picture about our dogs, which are not only positive side. Nothing is only black or white. And mor destroyed the breed such people, who inform the public only about positives by our dogs.
Believe me, I know many people, which buying CsW without deeper knowledges about this race. Later were such people very disapointed and dogs are poor - landing in shelter or rest of life close in cage.
Our dogs are not only perfect. They have HD as well, epilepsy as well, cryptorchism as well etc. CsW is not race comming from space and the breeders and owners too. We living on this planet and also between us are super openly friendly people and on other side bleeders and just criminals as well.
Hidden informations only put the problem temporary to the fog and everybody will self imagine what can be in background. Later come the problem any case back deeper and stronger. Do you think, that such situation is better ?

massimo · 20-09-2004, 00:38

It's a fact that the CZ club is doing this experiment.

It's a fact that they are not hiding it completely (they done bonitation and done 2 dog shows (yes, it's not the first one).

It's true, as I think fenris mentioned, that if their experiment improves the breed without harming it, then it can only be positively judged.

That's enought positive thinking I can manage, sorry.

Before starting to make experiments on canadian wolves and German shepards, did they think about looking for CLEAN HDA bloodlines out of CZ???
If it's good working dogs they are looking for, did they even try using the best working CSW bloodlines??
It's amazing!
Compare what has been done with my example:
AIM: make a FAST wolfdog.
What do you do, look for fast wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or :
mate a greyhound with a timberwolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
AIM: make a small wolfdog:
what do you do, look for small wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or:
mate a chiuahua with a mexican wolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
Do you understand that the whole thing has no sense at all?? It's not a matter of racism or anger against the CZ breed, it's a matter of common sense.
I'm happy with my wolfdog's HD, with his behaviour (particularly with children), with his looks, with his biting skills.
Why should I want Canadian wolf's blood in his future?? Why not selecting an experimental super CSW bloodline and use this as much as possible instead of using something which has NOTHING to do with CSW?
Massimo

Pavel · 20-09-2004, 07:45

Massimo,
let me little bit correcting such "facts"

(as you see, some people dont understand yet) :

Quote: