What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo? - Page 3

fizban · 19-04-2007, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

The thing which interests me is, if the answer from Fabio that FCI (maybe only in Italy) allows to bring in new blood wolfblood in a breed here in the csw breed. Does anybody know if this is correct?

But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

I have no idea about FCI but ENCI allows people to (easy speaking) register *any* dog to the ENCI registers if they get "Very good" or "Excellent" for the "supposed" breed by a judge in an ENCI show. If you had a pure wolf, you present it as a CsW and the judge (often not skilled enough in CsW) thinks it's "Very good" for being a CsW, you can register it at the LIR. There, now you have an F0 registered as CsW.

Is it legal? Yes. I've said it in other post. Is it questionable? It's relative. To me yes, it is questionable. To the Slovakian club (as far as reported), the one that is supposed to protect the breed according the FCI, registering non pure-breed dogs as CsW is not legal, unless approved by them.

You seem to ignore a lot of portions of the emails supposedly attributed to Fabio Caselli. For example, this Jinda guy is having "problems" by breeding Mutara in Czech Republic. Do you need someone to tell you the problems he's running into? Pavel and others have explained it already. Behind this mutara garbage there's Hartl - it's not new you know - just browse the past posts on this matter. Does it mean it's legit according to the Sk club? I don't think so. Hartl founded the breed, so what? Is he in charge for the breed still? No, he's not.

Do you need any hint on the reason Mutara supposedly landed in Italy? Since it was impossible (or not possibile, or hard) to keep the experiment going in Czech rep or in Slovakia they looked for a country where the official club didn't have a position on the matter and where a "friendly" breeder wouldn't have mind to keep it going by mating with CsW and (supposedly) register the offspring as CsW.

Is it legal according to our laws? Yessir.

Navarre · 19-04-2007, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Last Navarre the dog attack, do you mean it was Sangria?

No, Lion, his father. My english is so bad ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Much better dog Lorenz Farouk brother to your dog?

Of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

They don´t bring him into the breed anymore because there were I don´t know one or two puppies from him with HD D. since they know this they don´t use him.

Sorry but... or they aren't breeder or you are saying bull@@@@s.

Navarre · 19-04-2007, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

Why not ? Why keep secret ? Why declares at past dog shows and bonitation that they are sons of Vicky ?

He is not a simple owner, he IS the breeding committee of italian club.

Kinga · 19-04-2007, 12:48

Thanks, i not wish have puppies from "puppies producent" with not clear pedigree.

Thanks for information

hanninadina · 19-04-2007, 13:09

Fizban who do you think you are, talking in this way over Hartl? Let me ask you, who are you? Having a one year old csw coming out from nobody knows! It seems to me that you don´t have any respect. What is your interest in this breed which is so new for you? You are not serious, sorry to say. Having a csw from a none fci-breeder and mixing in things he knows nothing about. this is an wolfdogbreed. And I think everyone is proud of it. And please tell me why breeders are looking for old bloodlines and are mating and breeding with F 4 Kondor for example? Yes, because they love it. And if you have a problem with dogs which are in some kind a bit more wolf than the ordinary dog, take a gsd in gray or Husky, than you don´t have problems with this wonderful wolfdogbreed.

Last Navarre, Baschan von der Wolfsranch ist the son of Lorenz Farouk. I don´t know but Ina Eichhorn the breeder is vet. And she wants to breed a total healthy dog breed. From my point of view it is consequent! Maybe Ina can tell to you personally, because she is reading here too. I know that you will have in every litter maybe one puppy with not so good hips. There are only a few litters where all puppies are clean. But mostly not all puppies were x-rayed.

Christian

Mirkawolf · 19-04-2007, 13:22

Christian, I do not know who are you, but could you please stop attacking people here on the forum? Thank you.

saschia · 19-04-2007, 13:37

sorry, I think I need to jump to this also.

Christian, you say like what Hartl supposedly said is true and the law. You forget several things.

1) Hartl is not an almighty and allknowing god. He might make mistakes. He might believe people who use only his name.

2) Hartl is not owner of the breed. He is one of TWO founders of the breed, the only problem being that people often "forget" to add mr. Rosik. Although both are alive, they are old and they have right for some peace also.

3) If not for breeders in Slovakia, there would be no CsV at all! But is anybody asking the opinion of Slovak club, or of mr. Rosik? Only very few. And they don't keep it at all time before them to support their own views and present them as the views of the founders.

4) FCI does not approve of using different breed or wolves in freshening of blood. It can be used only in case when there are serious problems with health and inbreeding. CsV was accepted under some conditions in 1989 and we had to prove in 1999 that it is a vital and healthy breed, with people interested in them, so it would be accepted definitely. If we couldn't prove it, it would be rejected. Where was Italy at that time? They hardly knew about CsV. So please don't tell that Italians are the saviors of the breed because it is not true.

You are right that we should plan very carefully if we would want to add wolf again to the breed. I agree. But there is no such need at present time and if there was such need, there are plenty of carpathian wolves in zoos around Europe and such thing can be done by carefull planning, and under supervision of breeding commitees (even Slovakia as the guarrant of breed cannot do this on its own). There are many private owners of wolves, so keeping a wolf puppy with some CsVs would surely help so that it doesn't kill the mate when it is adult. And if there is problem with getting CsV females in heat in time of wolf rut, then there are also possibilities of the other way - male CsV and female wolf. But three male wolves were added to the breed in its creation, so there has to be a way, if we really need it.

wolfin · 19-04-2007, 14:19

Whe have very important worts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

But there is no such need at present time and if there was such need, there are plenty of carpathian wolves in zoos around Europe and such thing can be done by carefull planning, and under supervision of breeding commitees .(even Slovakia as the guarrant of breed cannot do this on its own).

See Your all THIS worts?

hanninadina · 19-04-2007, 16:26

Mirkawolf I don´t attack anyone, I say only my opinion. Why you ask me and not Fizban who is blaming one of the founder of the breed?

Christian

fizban · 19-04-2007, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mirkawolf I don´t attack anyone, I say only my opinion. Why you ask me and not Fizban who is blaming one of the founder of the breed?

I'm not blaming anyone. I said this Mutara stuff, that looks like is landed in italy, is garbage; I didn't say Hartl is garbage. I think this Mutara issue is garbage for the way it has been (and is being) conducted. See the interesting points that "saschia" has made (BTW, really interesting post, thanks) for the key points that I, in my ignorance, totally share.

hanninadina · 19-04-2007, 17:56

But why do you do as if Hartl has no knowledge? Because you don´t like it, that for him it is ok with Mutara? Hartl is one of the founder of the breed and why should what he tinks now a days be garbage? Only because of age? Sorry, that is a poor answer. So what do you know about Mutara and breeding between wolves and dogs? It is not serious what you are saying.

Christian

fizban · 19-04-2007, 18:20

Dude, stop putting words I haven't said in my mouth, it is frankly annoying to keep on replying and trying to rephrase something I didn't said, or even thought. And what's up with asking questions to me, replying on your own and saying "it's a poor answer"?!

Personally I think when one gets aged, he/she usually gets wiser. Also, when I was a kid, I was teached to pay respect to people older than me. However: have you read what "saschia" said about the rules to follow in order to add "wolf blood" into the breed? That's the model *anyone*, from the dumbest breeder to the founders of the breed should follow, nowadays, if they wanted to add wolf blood to the breed.

Given that according to the Slovakian club it seems there's no need to add wolf blood, at the present time, to CsW I therefore think the Mutara project is garbage and, the way it is conducted is kinda dangerous for the breed. Why? Because if it was a test, they (whoever is going on with this stuff) should NOT register or even try to register offspring as CsW - thing that they are not.

Now. It's pretty clear to me that we do not share our point of view on this matter, and it's ok. You are free to think the way to think, and I hope to be free to do so as well. If you want to say I'm wrong and you are right, you are free to do so. However, from now on, PLEASE refrain from sticking words I haven't said in my own mouth.

Regards

hanninadina · 19-04-2007, 21:49

My last words to this theme:

Susanna you have two really nice dogs, but why the hell did you do inbreeding in your first litter? Jolly and Grey Wolf have the same mother! And this is not all, the fathers of Jolly and Grey Wolf are brothers.

Doing inbreeding is bad and causes high demages and illness. Inbreeding, if it is necessary, what sometimes can happen, is something to be done by really experienced breeder. But sorry, is it right that this litter from Last Navarre and Isabeau is your first litter? Didn´t you talk to Margo or/and Sarka? Why can somebody like you who is doing such a thing, blame things like Mutara where is coming really fresh blood and genes into the breed?

Sorry, I don´t understand this italian csw world. That is to high for me. What kind of csw safer you wanna be? Fizban who want to be Robin Hood - I want too -but I go first and inform me over years, talk to breeders, watch lots of litters and puppies and of course parents, watch the puppies grown up, watch wolves and wolfdogs, read books, watch documentations and and. And then I start talking about things.

That´s it. It is not real what happened in here. Sorry to say.

Christian

Hanka · 19-04-2007, 22:14

To Christian:
"fresh blood and genes into the breed" ??? Do you mean fresh blood of not pure breed german sheepdog and canadian wolf to our breed? Oh no.

We try remove from population long ears, long tailes, longer body, dark eyes- what have wolfdogs from GS. It is work for next 20years. And you want give it back to population of wolfdogs? Why??
And what will be about HIP dysplasia? It is relict of GS in breeding of wolfdogs. Do you know, what rtg results have Mutaras?

z Peronówki · 19-04-2007, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

To Christian:
"fresh blood and genes into the breed" ??? Do you mean fresh blood of not pure breed german sheepdog and canadian wolf to our breed? Oh no.

We try remove from population long ears, long tailes, longer body, dark eyes- what have wolfdogs from GS. It is work for next 20years. And you want give it back to population of wolfdogs? Why??
And what will be about HIP dysplasia? It is relict of GS in breeding of wolfdogs. Do you know, what rtg results have Mutaras?

Hanka, keep smiling...

Everytime when the breed looks better and there are more and more nice typical dogs "Mutara clan" appears and mixes some GSD blood to the lines... They really care for us - for ALL breeders... They care that all breeders have always something to do... We reached nice results - the ears become smaller, formats better, eyes lighter, black mask almost disapreared. So what they do? They add German Shepherd Dog mix so we can have occupation for next 20 years....

michaelundinaeichhorn · 19-04-2007, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

My last words to this theme:

Christian

Apart from Margo's prophecy of a bright future for us breeders to rebuild the standart CSW, the only positive prospect on this topic for the future.

Regards,

Michael

zikika · 19-04-2007, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monika

I keep smiling always when some people speaking and writing about Mutara!

Good night

Monika

Ok...we will smile too when in your garden you will have a white CSW with long hair,hip displasy and your beautiful child or some friend of you will be bite from him

or do you give them only to us?

Someone want Mutara?Hold them...in his house/country not in Italy please,we will have big problems for all the breed for this thing.

I don't understand the motive for this experiment,i could understand with a carpatian wolf and a true GS but not between a white wolf and a mix (GS,Malamute?

)...nothing to smile...really nothing.

freewild · 20-04-2007, 00:27

hi

i thing in fact white wolf without mask eyes clear woould be interesting ?????????

NO!! why do it one test any one solution i'm agree to said ths mixte is not interesting because in the futur we shuld found wolfdog without mask on totaly white

great

directly garbage

in contrary if some one with the autorized as commitie with a real wolf ( same as 50 years ago ) and rigorous selection why not ??

but one this moment I think it's not the time

Nebulosa · 20-04-2007, 05:24

Only forgoth to say about the color change with the climate, white or clear at winter, darker or colorfull at summer , that's the best !

Quote:

Originally Posted by zikika

I don't understand the motive for this experiment,i could understand with a carpatian wolf and a true GS but not between a white wolf and a mix (GS,Malamute? )...nothing to smile...really nothing.

Now I know that isn't only I that not understand this, this have no explanations!

saschia · 20-04-2007, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Only forgoth to say about the color change with the climate, white or clear at winter, darker or colorfull at summer , that's the best !

Yes and if arctic wolf is not enough, will breed also arctic hare into the breed! Nothing can stop us now! Muhaha

19-04-2007, 13:22	#46
Mirkawolf Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 556	Christian, I do not know who are you, but could you please stop attacking people here on the forum? Thank you. __________________ :: :: :: Cira & Ali & Tulip :: :: :: http://vlcisen.mirkawolf.com

19-04-2007, 13:37	#47
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	sorry, I think I need to jump to this also. Christian, you say like what Hartl supposedly said is true and the law. You forget several things. 1) Hartl is not an almighty and allknowing god. He might make mistakes. He might believe people who use only his name. 2) Hartl is not owner of the breed. He is one of TWO founders of the breed, the only problem being that people often "forget" to add mr. Rosik. Although both are alive, they are old and they have right for some peace also. 3) If not for breeders in Slovakia, there would be no CsV at all! But is anybody asking the opinion of Slovak club, or of mr. Rosik? Only very few. And they don't keep it at all time before them to support their own views and present them as the views of the founders. 4) FCI does not approve of using different breed or wolves in freshening of blood. It can be used only in case when there are serious problems with health and inbreeding. CsV was accepted under some conditions in 1989 and we had to prove in 1999 that it is a vital and healthy breed, with people interested in them, so it would be accepted definitely. If we couldn't prove it, it would be rejected. Where was Italy at that time? They hardly knew about CsV. So please don't tell that Italians are the saviors of the breed because it is not true. You are right that we should plan very carefully if we would want to add wolf again to the breed. I agree. But there is no such need at present time and if there was such need, there are plenty of carpathian wolves in zoos around Europe and such thing can be done by carefull planning, and under supervision of breeding commitees (even Slovakia as the guarrant of breed cannot do this on its own). There are many private owners of wolves, so keeping a wolf puppy with some CsVs would surely help so that it doesn't kill the mate when it is adult. And if there is problem with getting CsV females in heat in time of wolf rut, then there are also possibilities of the other way - male CsV and female wolf. But three male wolves were added to the breed in its creation, so there has to be a way, if we really need it. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

19-04-2007, 18:20	#52
fizban Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bergamo Posts: 244	Dude, stop putting words I haven't said in my mouth, it is frankly annoying to keep on replying and trying to rephrase something I didn't said, or even thought. And what's up with asking questions to me, replying on your own and saying "it's a poor answer"?! Personally I think when one gets aged, he/she usually gets wiser. Also, when I was a kid, I was teached to pay respect to people older than me. However: have you read what "saschia" said about the rules to follow in order to add "wolf blood" into the breed? That's the model anyone, from the dumbest breeder to the founders of the breed should follow, nowadays, if they wanted to add wolf blood to the breed. Given that according to the Slovakian club it seems there's no need to add wolf blood, at the present time, to CsW I therefore think the Mutara project is garbage and, the way it is conducted is kinda dangerous for the breed. Why? Because if it was a test, they (whoever is going on with this stuff) should NOT register or even try to register offspring as CsW - thing that they are not. Now. It's pretty clear to me that we do not share our point of view on this matter, and it's ok. You are free to think the way to think, and I hope to be free to do so as well. If you want to say I'm wrong and you are right, you are free to do so. However, from now on, PLEASE refrain from sticking words I haven't said in my own mouth. Regards __________________ Ciao, Andre

20-04-2007, 00:27	#58
freewild Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: gironde Posts: 2,329	hi i thing in fact white wolf without mask eyes clear woould be interesting ????????? NO!! why do it one test any one solution i'm agree to said ths mixte is not interesting because in the futur we shuld found wolfdog without mask on totaly white great directly garbage in contrary if some one with the autorized as commitie with a real wolf ( same as 50 years ago ) and rigorous selection why not ?? but one this moment I think it's not the time __________________ amitiées tchequelouquienne http://texwolf.free.fr www.amicale-chien-loup-tchecoslovaque.com une vrai passion pour une belle race ! signé fabrice tout simplement passionné....... et c'est deja ça

19-04-2007, 12:48	#44
Kinga Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2	Thanks, i not wish have puppies from "puppies producent" with not clear pedigree. Thanks for information

19-04-2007, 13:09	#45
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Fizban who do you think you are, talking in this way over Hartl? Let me ask you, who are you? Having a one year old csw coming out from nobody knows! It seems to me that you don´t have any respect. What is your interest in this breed which is so new for you? You are not serious, sorry to say. Having a csw from a none fci-breeder and mixing in things he knows nothing about. this is an wolfdogbreed. And I think everyone is proud of it. And please tell me why breeders are looking for old bloodlines and are mating and breeding with F 4 Kondor for example? Yes, because they love it. And if you have a problem with dogs which are in some kind a bit more wolf than the ordinary dog, take a gsd in gray or Husky, than you don´t have problems with this wonderful wolfdogbreed. Last Navarre, Baschan von der Wolfsranch ist the son of Lorenz Farouk. I don´t know but Ina Eichhorn the breeder is vet. And she wants to breed a total healthy dog breed. From my point of view it is consequent! Maybe Ina can tell to you personally, because she is reading here too. I know that you will have in every litter maybe one puppy with not so good hips. There are only a few litters where all puppies are clean. But mostly not all puppies were x-rayed. Christian

19-04-2007, 16:26	#49
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Mirkawolf I don´t attack anyone, I say only my opinion. Why you ask me and not Fizban who is blaming one of the founder of the breed? Christian

19-04-2007, 17:56	#51
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	But why do you do as if Hartl has no knowledge? Because you don´t like it, that for him it is ok with Mutara? Hartl is one of the founder of the breed and why should what he tinks now a days be garbage? Only because of age? Sorry, that is a poor answer. So what do you know about Mutara and breeding between wolves and dogs? It is not serious what you are saying. Christian

19-04-2007, 21:49	#53
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	My last words to this theme: Susanna you have two really nice dogs, but why the hell did you do inbreeding in your first litter? Jolly and Grey Wolf have the same mother! And this is not all, the fathers of Jolly and Grey Wolf are brothers. Doing inbreeding is bad and causes high demages and illness. Inbreeding, if it is necessary, what sometimes can happen, is something to be done by really experienced breeder. But sorry, is it right that this litter from Last Navarre and Isabeau is your first litter? Didn´t you talk to Margo or/and Sarka? Why can somebody like you who is doing such a thing, blame things like Mutara where is coming really fresh blood and genes into the breed? Sorry, I don´t understand this italian csw world. That is to high for me. What kind of csw safer you wanna be? Fizban who want to be Robin Hood - I want too -but I go first and inform me over years, talk to breeders, watch lots of litters and puppies and of course parents, watch the puppies grown up, watch wolves and wolfdogs, read books, watch documentations and and. And then I start talking about things. That´s it. It is not real what happened in here. Sorry to say. Christian

19-04-2007, 22:14	#54
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	To Christian: "fresh blood and genes into the breed" ??? Do you mean fresh blood of not pure breed german sheepdog and canadian wolf to our breed? Oh no. We try remove from population long ears, long tailes, longer body, dark eyes- what have wolfdogs from GS. It is work for next 20years. And you want give it back to population of wolfdogs? Why?? And what will be about HIP dysplasia? It is relict of GS in breeding of wolfdogs. Do you know, what rtg results have Mutaras?