Is there at least one working line in the breed of csw?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

....just coincidence.... pure coincidence.... ko-ko's good part comes from Ajbix!!
massimo

Massimo please don't be angry BUT please tell me how can we "evaluate" Ko-ko's working abilities? I never saw her on the training place working, for me she look like typical "Bixi" (Ajbix). Maybe it is true what Hanka says but is she "working blood of Hasso"? How we can judge it if so far Ko-ko do not passed ANY exams - how can we see if she will really work so good? Maybe she will be TOO crazy to pass IPO? Nobody knows - there are no proves... So far we have only WORDS - nothing more...

Hanka writes Ko-ko is nervous type. I have daughter of Ajbix (NO Hasso blood inside the pedigree) - also crazy, nervous and also crying when we go away she can not wokr... When I see Merry Bell I see also Bixi working (but also Kelt or Hoky).... ALL of them had the same HIGH energy for work although Hoky, Ajbix and Merry Bell have nothing to do with Hasso...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Massimo please don't be angry BUT please tell me how can we "evaluate" Ko-ko's working abilities? I never saw her on the training place working, for me she look like typical "Bixi" (Ajbix). Maybe it is true what Hanka says but is she "working blood of Hasso"? How we can judge it if so far Ko-ko do not passed ANY exams - how can we see if she will really work so good? Maybe she will be TOO crazy to pass IPO? Nobody knows - there are no proves... So far we have only WORDS - nothing more...

Now I really feel I have to say something. I think that Hanka knows her dog well, and probably she has experiences with wolfdogs enough, to be able to tell if her Koko is working dog or not.
If she can proove it by passing exams, is different thing. But we all know, what kind of dogs we have at home and if we are honest to ourselves and to the others, we can say if we have dogs keen in working, or not.
And on the contrary, I know dogs that have passed exams, maybe many, but never showed any drive for working and if they did not have consistent, patient owners, they´d never pass anything. Should I call those dogs working dogs?


About "only words". Yes, you cannot maybe evaluate dogs working abilities without working test, as much as you cannot evaluate or justify breeding on dog without bonitation. You can say milion times (and I am not speaking about you or any concrete breeder), that a dog is looking fine, he´s got titles and he´s been judged by a good judge who said the dog was looking great. But he has no bonitation and .. so far we have only WORDS.

This might be again considered off-topic, but as Daiva says, she´d not get future working puppy from dogs, which don´t have exams, yet the owner claims them to have drive for working...well. I would NOT get any CSW puppy for any purpose from parents where one dog is not bonitated, even if I was told hundred times how great the parents were and no matter on how many titles they had.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Now I really feel I have to say something. I think that Hanka knows her dog well, and probably she has experiences with wolfdogs enough, to be able to tell if her Koko is working dog or not.
If she can proove it by passing exams, is different thing. But we all know, what kind of dogs we have at home and if we are honest to ourselves and to the others, we can say if we have dogs keen in working, or not.

Mirka but I still think we need MUCH more to say about one dog "I have working dog". It is not against Hanka but when we will say that "the words of the owner are enough because the owner KNOWS his/her own dog" then we will get 99% of working CzWs because EVERY owner will say the same...
I saw "working dogs" with exams and without them, I can show you dogs which are EXTREMLY shy but the owner will fight to the end saing he has "working dog" with great stable character and some exams passed.

So do you think the "words" are really enough?

The second thing - how can we judge HOW the dog will make IPO3 if we will NEVER see the dog working on such lever? We can not play faires... If the dog has stable character and like to cooperate - for me it is NOT enough for being "working dog".... because it is enough only to say it is "typical CzW"....

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

And on the contrary, I know dogs that have passed exams, maybe many, but never showed any drive for working and if they did not have consistent, patient owners, they´d never pass anything. Should I call those dogs working dogs?

No... And it is my point of view... I know many dogs which passed many exams ONLY thanks to the HARD WORK OF THEIR OWNERS. And you can see some of them are called here not only "working dogs" but also founders of working lines...

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

This might be again considered off-topic, but as Daiva says, she´d not get future working puppy from dogs, which don´t have exams, yet the owner claims them to have drive for working...well. I would NOT get any CSW puppy for any purpose from parents where one dog is not bonitated, even if I was told hundred times how great the parents were and no matter on how many titles they had.

Is it not the same? Look on some judges which make some bonitations.... So for me NOTHING counts really... I saw VERY untypical CzWs (GSD like) which get (also in CZ) the perfect bonitation code. Can we tell a CzW is typical ONLY because it passed the bonitation? I saw also shy dogs which passed the exams. Can we call them "working"?
So good bonitation will not make a dog typical and passed exam will not make a dog a working dog...

In this case I will NEVER buy a puppy from some P1 bonitated dogs because they are not really CzW-looking (not typical Wolfdogs). And I will also not buy a puppy from some so called working lines because they are really not working...

It is so and it was always so - the main thing is to know the reality... To SEE the dogs with the own eyes, to see them working, to see their life and the influence on the character.. Only on this case we can "evaluate" a line or a dog... And bonitation, show results, working exams can be easily manipulated...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

It is so and it was always so - the main thing is to know the reality... To SEE the dogs with the own eyes, to see them working, to see their life and the influence on the character.. Only on this case we can "evaluate" a line or a dog... And bonitation, show results, working exams can be easily manipulated...

Right, that is true. If this was said at the beginning, this thread would not need 3 pages. But honestly, I think bonitations matter, as well as the exams. It prooves something about the honesty and interest of the owner (or the breeder) in the breed. And that matters to me too.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

This might be again considered off-topic, but as Daiva says, she´d not get future working puppy from dogs, which don´t have exams, yet the owner claims them to have drive for working...well. I would NOT get any CSW puppy for any purpose from parents where one dog is not bonitated, even if I was told hundred times how great the parents were and no matter on how many titles they had.

Hi, Mirka,

You mean my litter? I think both parents have much more than only bonitation results. my female won last year the world dog show in Poznan and Harka was many times judged by slovakian and czech judges. the most important. she made bonitation in slovakia. and has also some exams.
the father was judged during the most important shows in slovakia. and he has youth bonitation with perfect descriprion. he has some exams and took part with good result in nationat obedience competitions.

it is much more than simple litter where the parents has only the bonitation and no exams and no titles. because exams show the working character and titles the standard looking.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

You mean my litter? I think both parents have much more than only bonitation results. my female won last year the world dog show in Poznan and Harka was many times judged by slovakian and czech judges. the most important. she made bonitation in slovakia. and has also some exams.
the father was judged during the most important shows in slovakia. and he has youth bonitation with perfect descriprion. he has some exams and took part with good result in nationat obedience competitions.

it is much more than simple litter where the parents has only the bonitation and no exams and no titles. because exams show the working character and titles the standard looking.

If the sire is so great, I am sure the male could pass the bonitation, too. But he did not, so, nothing against your litter, but it is simply NOT a litter from where I would get a puppy.

Btw. youth bonitation does not exist. Only youth PRESENTATION, which is exactly that - presentation of a young dog. The Slovaks don´t even give code to the dog at that time. Description is nice, but we all know, it is does not guarantee anything, the dog is still growing, many things can change. I do not have to explain that to you.

And sorry, but the titles do not show ANYTHING at all. There are dogs who should have them, but won´t get them because their owners don´t have the right connections, or the judges does not know what they are doing. And there are dogs, who should not get titles, and yet they get them.. for the very same reasons. Yes, there are also titles given to the right dogs by the right judges. But still a title is no guarantee of anything to me.

And guys, was not this all a bit off topic?

[Hanka]

Hello !Wolfin" ,
I was all life with my dogs on training area.All my dogs had much exams, I went to dograces. But now is for me different situation. Now I have family, children and my "hierarchy of values" is different. So, I prefer actions, where we can be all family. But it is not to be every weekend on training area with dogs. It is for example mushing with all family on the mountains, long tripes with all my dogs and with my family on the mountains, weekends in nature under tant . I can be there with dogs and all family too. I know, I have at home one wolfdog, who loves training and other "normal" wolfdogs. I don´t different between them. And Kony is female of my daughter. Now I prefer sporttraining like hobby for us. Maybe, in the future, when children will be adult, I can bring back to normal sporttraining. But now, it is not possible. Because if I want do it to 100%, I must have much free time for it.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

And guys, was not this all a bit off topic?

Just some comments about this short off topic.

Hip x rays, Bonitations, pedigrees, working exams.
They are all very important for the breed but an INTELLIGENT and SERIOUS person judges not only by the paper he sees but by the real facts which accompany a dog and an owner.
If you do not trust an xray made in poland or a bonitation made in Italy or a working exam made in slovakia you are of course free to do it.
From one point of view all exams and certificates and beauty results should be a very importatn reference for those who are interested in a certain dog, but again, this does not necessarily mean that paper and certificates make a dog better than another.
A dog can be beautiful without being champion just because the owner is not interested in shows. A dog "could" be a working dog and no working exams just because the owner has no time to dedicate to him. A dog could be an excellent breeding dog but no bonitation because the owner lives in south of spain and has real serious difficulties to reach places were bonitations are held. A dog could could be the healthiest dog in the world but with no HD xrays because the owner is not interested in breeding.
Of course of all the things mentioned, we could apply the absolute OPPOSITE meaning.
Best way to know things is to see them personally, it helps a lot!
For example: If somebody does NOT trust my dog's HD results made in Italy just ask me, I can give a copy of xrays so you can see for yourself.

massimo

[Navarre]

I agree with who say :"There are working owners, not working dogs"

I own two good dogs, with well balance-self confident character, but I really have small time to train them...they maybe could be really "working dog" but till now they make only some easy exams.

Obviously with some very shy csw you can't do nothing, apart running 100km...so running for km and km it's not a prove of typical csw character, i think.

[Gaga]

Originally Posted by Navarre

I own two good dogs, with well balance-self confident character, but I really have small time to train them...they maybe could be really "working dog" but till now they make only some easy exams.

Obviously with some very shy csw you can't do nothing, apart running 100km...so running for km and km it's not a prove of typical csw character, i think.

yes, yes, yes
An exam of running 100 km can ONLY show us that our CSV has a perfect body building


My CSV- Cheitan practises obedience, he’s passed Polish exams BUT I know that working with CSV is not as easy as working with a GSD A lot of Polish coaches say: "training a CSV? It’s mission impossible!" They are very surprised when a CSV passes an exam or gets good results in competitions. This shows (despite the quantity aspect) that CSV is not such a working breed as e.g. border collie

Our friends –Joanna with Dewi train with us in the same school. I can easily see differences between the two dogs: Dewi catches new things very quickly and is ahead of Chey. It’s obvious that she has a better natural training potential. However, later Chey makes up for it with his diligence and in effect the results are similar. If I were to chose a dog for serious work I’d definitely chose Dewi who takes after her mother, Merry Bell - Margo mentioned earlier how much she loved working.
But I’d never say that any of these dogs belong to a “working line”. What can be just observed is that dogs from certain lines have more repeatable characters. But that’s all.


Gaga

[hanninadina]

I am sorry to say but I cannot understand that it seems to me that here are people who are not able to see the difference between working dog and show/family dog. Of course a working dog can be too a family dog. So if you give me 10 dogs and say, ok go on and tell me who is a working dog. I can tell you that it is no problem to find out really fast.

And please tell me why then if there are no wolrking lines even csw can start in the working class in shows? The answer, because there are working owners.... Ha Ha Ha. What kind of funny. Sure you can work with every dog, but please why some of you cannot understand, that it is a big difference to have a dog which learns much more easier and faster than another dog. And please why are there are a few breeds which are typicall working dogs. What do they do what a csw could not do? It does not depend on how good he makes it. It depends how fast he makes it and if the dog has fun to do this work. We are not in school.

And so some of you mentioned it they know where to go to get a working csw. Me too. And why could we say this with safety? Because these are working lines and most of the puppies - sure not all - are able to learn faster and work easier than puppies from only showline. I did say it above. In a working line you can work with 5 from 8 puppies. In a show line you can maybe work with 2 of 8 puppies. You have to be realistic. What some you are trying to do is, living after lawrules for dogs. But there are no lawrules for what is a working dog.

And someone says we have only young breed only in gsd and Malinois could be working lines. I don´t know if you know the german herding dog Harzer Fuchs. This is no FCI Breed but lots of people who have sheeps work with Harzer Fuchs. He has red brown coat and the males are like gsd or bit smaller. These are only working dogs and puppies are only given to people who work with them. I don´t really know how many there are in germany but I think some like the csw. In my village are living two. So there is no need for big numbers of dogs to have a working line.

And sorry to say Margo, Torsten has a female from KoKo if I remember right and it same working dog as KoKo is.

Your problem is that you don´t know that there are no rules from FCI what is working dog. to be after FCI a working dog you only need BH and IPO 1. That is all! But some of you wants to make a university time with an exam at the end out of it. Maybe it will come some time. But dog breeding is nothing which is controlled by the state - only Bullterrier a.s.o. in germany -. So everyone who knows dogs will be able to see what dog is able to work and which is not able.

Christian

Christian

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Your problem is that you don´t know that there are no rules from FCI what is working dog.

Unlike you. You seem to know EVERYTHING!

[hanninadina]

No not everything, but what I know I share with you. And if you don´t write what you know I have to think that you maybe don´t know....

No stress, keep smiling.

Christian

[Gaga]

Christian,
If you claim that 5 pups out of 8 in the working line litters are good material for working dogs I would be very grateful if you provided some statistical evidence / background which supported your statements. Just tell us which CSV matches resulted in such 80% magnificent ‘working descendants’. And then, how many of them gave further working generations.

Besides:
1. It is enough for the dog to pass a 40km running exam to be presented in a working class at dog shows(e.g. Slovakia) but we all know, that such an exam is very easy for a CSV and thus neither does it prove that this is a really working dog, nor that he descents from a working line. So this argument is rather weak.
2. Already in civilian’s ownership - CSV have been never selected according to their working abilities,. There have rather been cases that people who wanted to train their dogs bought pups of parents that had passed some kind of exams. But this can hardly be called proper selection, can it? The variety in the appearance (e.g. consider just the differences in exterior of Czech, Slovak and Italia dogs!) shows that there have been significant differences among the breeders – their priorities made various elements prominent… We may extrapolate this trend over to other aspects. If so, what happened to the working and training potential?

And last, but not least: CSV have been designed to become working dog breed, so theoretically (and practically) each CSV should possess some kind of inborn knack for working. So if we speak about ‘working line’s it would have to mean that certain family lines should be extraordinarily easily trainable and conspicuously bright among other CSVs. At least that’s how I see it.

[milancin]

It , which is a big pluse wants to do tests and have good time.
to also adds to the discussion. (Google translation)
Ine is said that a know quickly disperse and am interested in something else. So training and tests (which receives no snacks) is a big difference. Of course, not everyonIt also adds to the discussion. (Google translation)
Ine is said that a dog has it, but do tests and different when the test and must keep the dog in the spotlight. Really it's not so simple-CVK and to know quickly disperse and am interested in something else. So training and tests (which receives no snacks) is a big difference. Of course, not everyone wants to do tests and have good time.
In a world-CVK and are not much good to see they are very particular character and their menu. People have a gap. So it is good if it works with dogs. Certainly over time create a work line, as in the dog. Just have to learn how to treat them. Art does not have parents who are in work line, but somehow exams obedience-CSAU, TAN, OB, OBE1, ZOP, ZPU1, BH
feet from me - PS, EEPS-RCI, FCI1, 2xFCI2, RU.
Kusacky are forbidden in France. Jump back and forth to Germany for training. Apparently in Germany also is not much you ciek cv-piece.
So, to create a true working breed and versatile us an opportunity "moment" lasts. But it is true that there are more and more people who work with CVG-tions