'Just for fun' bonitation in Osieczna (PL)

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

I made a lot of bonitacion and my the signature is on many bonitacion cards official Czech and unofficail too.

Reset and cancel them from wolfdog. org database, please. Thanks.

Sorry but it is a very strange that an FCI judge have no idea what is a RULE. If you judge during a FCI dog show the results are accepted. If you make a dog show at you home you can even give a "World Winner" title to all dogs of your friends - but the titles EVEN GIVEN BY A OFFICIAL FCI JUDGE are worth NOTHING in this case.

Even child would get the difference...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi, would it be possible to translate the "apology" and the rest?
Especially point 6.

I hope Hanka will do this. Anyway someone is lying....

Grzesiek - the person who say that he was counting the inxedes (so it is visible he was in the bonitation comittee - anyway a person who not only took part in the bonitation but is good informed wrote on the Polish version:

Originally Posted by wilczakrew

Karty z Osiecznej sa w języku czeskim, a ja poprosiłem aby mi to samo przepisano [do karty polskiej, przyp. Margo] na moją kartę jako kopia.
Tylko dlatego abym wiedział co jest na tej karcie co.

Translation:
"The card in Osieczna were in Czech language. I asked only to write me the result also on my own [Polish] card as a copy. It was only because I wanted to understand what is written there".

So the person who TOOK part and also was person who organized it and helped the judge get a CZECH card.

Also the Czech versions were send by Ela, as far I understood it...

At the same time Monika told to the club the cards were in Polish language...

MATRIX

[Monika]

The bonitacion in Osiezna is on same level for Czech Club, like bonitacion in Pózno, for example for better understanding.

I not understand well Margo ´s " brainwashing " but this is normal for me.

Bonitacion in Osiezna was made by Czech Judge and keep Czech rules.

Margo is last person, who can to say if the bonitacion valid or not.

Strangres bonitacion for Czech club not are valid for memebers of Czech Club, only. The member of Czech Club can pass bonitacion in Osiezna :0) Pózno or Serramazzoni but this bonitacion isn´ t enough for czech breeding!
Czech owner must to pass for breeding Czech KCHCSV bonitacion, only!


And strangers NOT NEED this FOR BREEDING! This acction is OPTIONAL!
You go with your dogs on bonitacion when you want, only and when you think, he can pass well it.... And you breed CSWs without bonitacion, too!

SO what happened Margo, somebody took the toys?

I know the rules and my rights very well.

Who goes those rules you only .. you have no right to say that bonitacion are valid and the dog is good stud dog, or not!
Everyone can read, knows where the bonitacion done and by whom. There are also videos. Just make a valid entry, and without comment, if you want to inform correctly.
Bonitace can be never exactly the same. The conditions are different, Judge, rules and helper .. implementation. Slovak temperament test is another test ... Italy is different too....But this is not problem, for me surely.
Please let to say the Judge his opinion.
Everyone can read and knows where and by whom was the bonitacion done this is same like different HD results!

We can read and nobody need your explanation! Thanks!

Monika

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Monika

Nebulosa, nobody sais that bonitacion was under Czech Club! But according to Czech rules, yes - judgement of exterier, measurement, character test, shooting. The results are accepted Czech Club like others strange bonitacion....

I also dont say that the bonitation was under Czech club, but the fakt that "if" it was accepted as official by them, its the question.
For long time in some countries, breeders, clubs and owners had pay a lot for bring judges from Czech or Slovakia for judge a bonitation and have its code as official, and now we all know its not needed anymore, so I can make my own bonitation here also and it will be much valuated as the Czech one.

Originally Posted by Monika

Why you have problem with this, still?? Because Margo not was organizator?

Whats difference will make if it was Margo or Santa Claus?
If both follow the rules we all wait its really no problem, but when we have a bonitation in different way, with common FCI judge and without club or breed comission, so the things start to change and of course I will start to show more interess, as I want to have bonitated dogs here.
We all imagined that the bonitation need to follow some specific rules and be accepted before been done by the club for be considerated official and published as it, in this case we would have some costs for bring a recognized and accepted judge by the club, and make everything according Czech or Slovakian rules, as they wish, now we discouvered that its not needed anymore, so...

Originally Posted by Monika

Why you must to have problem with everything??
Your dogs has some bonitacion official or unofficial?? NO? And you breed with them?

I really have problems with nothing, principally in when we talk about rules as I follow "all rules of our club" and much more than it
By the rules of our kennel club we also dont need HD or ED results, we only need a pedigree female and mate it with other pedigree male of the same breed. Do you think it that right to do?
I dont make my dogs pass exams only because the clubs will or because rules, I do it because I want select the breed and of course like all bredders I want show my work for the breed lovers.
But I wondered...
I ever found bonitation simply a bright idea when it has been done properly, but seems that now it turns only in ego war for show "my dog have P1 your not" even if this P1 is a lie
Then, normaly breeders try to respect the origin countries will, and if you all do bonitation, so its because its needed and all others countries will try to do it also, so its normal that I want my dogs bonitated like all Czech or Slovakian dogs.
Even, someone already dared to ask why my dogs have no bonitations, so for avoid the common bad talk wich exist in all breeding community, I also want to make official bonitation, recognized by at least one of the orign countries.
That's why I wonder about this topic.

[Hanka]

Margo, my english is not so perfect for correct translating from czech to english.
I think is stupid to give on english forum some link of czech text without translating, if somebody wants to tell something to english speaking people......

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Google translator is not very good but as far as I did understand was the excuse for the step to do this:
""Board stopt delegation of Ing. Monika Soukupova by valuation of aktions, they are organisate by KCHCSV ..."
"Výbor pozastavuje delegace Ing. Moniky Soukupové při posuzování akcí pořádaných KCHČSV..."
Because the step was taken thinking that official Czech Club forms were used for a not official Polish bonitation. After the Club realised that the forms weren´t given to the owners of the dog but only used privately by the judge there was no reason for this step any longer.

This doesn´t change anything for the discussion about this bonitation itself and doesn´t say anything about it´s value.

Was this right?

Ina

[Rona]

Guys, it seems to me that Monika DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of your concerns.
Maybe I'll try to put it clearly so that she and all who got lost in all the arguments could follow:

1. We all know that in the countries of origin bonitation is a breeding requirement, so all dogs that go into breeding MUST have it.

2. In many other coutries bonitation is not required for breeding. (e.g. Poland) This means that in such countries breeders do not HAVE TO bonitate their dogs, but MAY if the wish.

3. Bonitations can be organized anywhere: Roudnice, Jevisovice, Późna, Osieczna, etc. etc. provided the organizors have registered the event in the Czech or Slovak Club and the club delegated bonitation commission - three people with specific rights granted by the Club. This means that place does not matter, only the formalities.

4. This also means that the comission brings oficial boniation cards, stamps, etc. etc with them and the board have rights to sign the pedigrees of the dogs and the results are published in the official Club documents.

4. In that case, if the requirements and formalities are met, any Czech or Slovakian wolfdog can be taken by his/her owner to any of these registered bonitations (even if the boniation takes place in Kozia Wólka or on the Moon), the dog can be oficially bonitated, its code is put into his pedigree document and recognized by the breeding commission in the country he comes from, i.e. the Czech Republic or Slovakia.

5. In Późna I saw Czech and and Slovakian wolfdogs being bonitated and I heard their codes appreard in the official Club documents/webpage.

Now, my question to Monika and others is: if any Czech or Slovakian wolfdog took part in the boniatation in Osieczna would it be possible to put his code into his/her pedigree and would it be recognized by the Czech or Slovakian breeding commission?

To me this is the true validation of the bonitation, otherwise - it's a social event and I see not reason why anybody should insist on calling it boniation or making so much fuss around it as it has been done here.

[Hanka]

Yes Ina, this sentence was about czech club forms used for not czech club bonitation. You are right.

[Monika]

I think Hana understand Czech very well and she understand perfectly what si writen there!
all text from " Alexa " Mr. Skoupý: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...70959&langid=1

some important part:
KCHČSV v ČR bere na vědomí zadané bonitační kódy (kopie bonitačních karet byly českému klubu předány) jako kteroukoliv jinou informaci z bonitace v zahraničí (tzn. veškeré dříve pořádané bonitace v zahraničí, které nepořádal KCHČSV v ČR, což byla pouze bonitace v italské Pavii 2008 ).
Kdokoliv má právo uspořádat bonitaci bez toho, aniž by se na to ptal českého nebo slovenského klubu. Pokud by na takovou bonitaci však jel např. český majitel se svým psem, nebude mu tato bonitace uznána pro chovnost v ČR, pokud nebyla přímo českým klubem pořádána (což je tento případ). KCHČSV uznává pro zařazení mezi chovné jedince v ČR u psů v majetku osob žijících v ČR pouze bonitace pořádané českým klubem.

English:

KCHČSV in CR notes entered bonitacion code (copy Breeding cards (from Osiezna) were sent to the Bohemian Club) as any other information from the abroad bonitacion (ie any previous bonitacion held abroad no organized KCHČSV in the CR, which was only in Pavia, Italy 2008 ).

Everyone has the right to organize Bonitation, without being asked to Czech or Slovak Club. If would go on Bonitation eg. Czech owner with his dog, he shall not be recognized for the breeding in the CR, if not directly organized by the Czech club (which is the case). KCHČSV recognized for the Czech breeding and Czech owners living in CZ with dogs, only the bonitacion organized by the Czech club!

Why is so difficult understand???
All foreign bonitacion are for Czech Club on same level (except bonitacion in Pavia - Italy - this could pass Czech owners living in CZ ) and isn ´t important if is Judge: Bognarová, Šimáčková, Jedlička, Dóra, Soukupová or Nesvadba (Swizerland)....or somebody else!

" Exception " has Slovakian bonitacion in Slovak, only - for Czech owners.
They can pass exterier and all measurement on Slovakia BUT for character test must to go to CR! Slovakien character test no accepted Czech Club!


Is so difficult accept this wiew?

...and if we are in bonitacion...why the some italy dogs has in database - only " X " instead bonitacion code? Because admin wants?? He says this bonitacion is no right for me? It is really stupid opinion. Is always better to have italy or slovak or swiss bonitacion than - nothing!

Judgement of exterier is same, measurement is same and character test? Never can be same. Some coutries has problem to lern " attact " to person and they have problems with this part of bonitacion. Train dog never. For me isn ´t problem when Clubs modificate - transfer character test. Any bureacracy belonging to the breeding of dogs! And Nobody has a patent on the reason.
Test must be properly constructed so Judge could to make correct judgement of impulses (the referee excitement ) and depresion. So he could to say if the dog is melancholic, choleric, sanguine or flegmatic - general.

Sorry for my English.

Monika

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As far as I remember was the question after what rules this bonitation was made and who were the members of the comission not if anybody could make one anywhere in the world.

Ina

[Hanka]

Yes, I understand czech of course, but maybe you can´t read what I wrote.....

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I remember was the question after what rules this bonitation was made and who were the members of the comission not if anybody could make one anywhere in the world.

You know the problem with Monika: she has HUGE problems to answer SIMPLY questions... On the polish version I asked her three times about the rules for the bonitation in Osieczna and people who were in the breeding comittee... NO ANSWER...

Typical - she never answer any problematic questions...

What she is promoting at the moment is:
if you have a friend who is FCI judge for the group 1. just invite him/her for a beer and ask to sing some papers. Ask him to measure the dog (don't worry if the measurements will be wrong - nobody care for it), make some character test (it must be not a proffesional one). You do not need any official cards - prepare you own... Write ANYTHING on the papers and remember - you can write the best codes you want.... You can also add some centimetres of height to have the code "better looking"... And remember - all dogs can get perfect notes. Do not care for the faults...

And according the the FCI judge, Monika Soukupova, such bonitation will be valid... I know for everybody who has any idea about the goal of bonitation this what suggest Monika is simply TRASH. But for her, JUDGE, BREEDER, CZW EXPERT it is valid, great and professinal....

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

The bonitacion in Osiezna is on same level for Czech Club, like bonitacion in Pózno, for example for better understanding.

I not understand well Margo ´s " brainwashing " but this is normal for me.

Bonitacion in Osiezna was made by Czech Judge and keep Czech rules.

Margo is last person, who can to say if the bonitacion valid or not.

Strangres bonitacion for Czech club not are valid for memebers of Czech Club, only. The member of Czech Club can pass bonitacion in Osiezna :0) Pózno or Serramazzoni but this bonitacion isn´ t enough for czech breeding!
Czech owner must to pass for breeding Czech KCHCSV bonitacion, only!


And strangers NOT NEED this FOR BREEDING! This acction is OPTIONAL!
You go with your dogs on bonitacion when you want, only and when you think, he can pass well it.... And you breed CSWs without bonitacion, too!

SO what happened Margo, somebody took the toys?

I know the rules and my rights very well.

Who goes those rules you only .. you have no right to say that bonitacion are valid and the dog is good stud dog, or not!
Everyone can read, knows where the bonitacion done and by whom. There are also videos. Just make a valid entry, and without comment, if you want to inform correctly.
Bonitace can be never exactly the same. The conditions are different, Judge, rules and helper .. implementation. Slovak temperament test is another test ... Italy is different too....But this is not problem, for me surely.
Please let to say the Judge his opinion.
Everyone can read and knows where and by whom was the bonitacion done this is same like different HD results!

We can read and nobody need your explanation! Thanks!

Monika

For me such lack of knowledge in UNIMAGINABLE for a (so called) experienced breeder and FCI JUDGE! What I see here is PURE EMBARRASSMENT.

1. LIE:
Do not compare Osieczna with bonitation in Pozna, France or Italy. Because Osieczna was made according not existing rules (NOT CZECH). The other were made STRICTLY keeping to slovakian or czech rules.

2. LIE:
Bonitation in Osieczna do not keep to the Czech rules. You, FCI and CLUB JUDGE, should know that the regulation DO NOT SAY that the bonitation is "something what happend when dog is measured, character is checked and someone is shooting". NO!!! So before you will start to write us another fairy-tales READ FINALLY THE REGULATION OF YOUR OWN CLUB!:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?vi...tent&Itemid=75

*** "Bonitace jsou pořádány v souladu s ročním plánem chovatelských akcí klubu a jejich termín musí být uveden v oběžníku klubu. Místo a datum konání bonitace navrhuje pobočka a schvaluje je výbor chovatelského klubu."
Translation: Bonitation must be included in the year-long plan and the places must be listed in the club bulletin. Place and date is suggested by the branch of the club and approved by the board of the club.

NOBODY knew about the bonitation in Osieczna. It was not listed - nor on the web pages neither in the club newpaper.
CONCLUSION: The bonitation was not made by the Czech Club.

*** "Bonitační komise je nejméně tří členná. Tvoří ji: posuzovatel pro exteriér, poradce chovu a vedoucí bonitace."
Translation: bonitation comittee is made up at last of three people. It is made by: judge for exterier, breeding comittee member and person leading the bonitation.

In the bonitation in Osieczna was ONLY YOU. Where (who) was the breeding comittee member? Who was the person leading the bonitation. On the cards there are only your signs.
CONCLUSION: There was no VALID bonitation comittee.

*** During the club conference which took place on 14.6.2008 since 2009 the bvonitation code MUST include the indexes.

If you want to make bonitations you should READ and KNOW the regulations because NON of the bonitation you made abroad have it. Also the bonitation codes from Osieczna are not valid according the Czech rules...

CONCLUSION: There was no VALID bonitation codes.



DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CINVINCE ANYONE THAT THE BONITATION IN OSIECZNA WAS ACCORDING THE CZECH RULES? DO YOU REALLY WANT STILL TO DELUDE AS. Do you think anyone will believe you?!?!




There is more dear FCI judge.... The results of the bonitation in Osieczna were written bonitation cards singed with "Klub Hodowcow Czechoslowackiego Wilczaka" (translation: Club of the breeders of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog). WE DO NOT HAVE ANY FCI CLUB for CzW in Poland. So the club listed there is for 100% NON FCI. You, dear FCI judge, you should know IT IS VORBIDDEN for FCI judges to judge during NON FCI meeetings... The cards are FAKE - singed by NON-FCI (or non-existing) CLUB!!!

If the club listed there is real - could you be also so nice to give us the names of the people who made this FAKE club so we could hold them responsible for it?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

Strangres bonitacion for Czech club not are valid for memebers of Czech Club, only. The member of Czech Club can pass bonitacion in Osiezna :0) Pózno or Serramazzoni but this bonitacion isn´ t enough for czech breeding!

I know - and I understand their possition in 100%!!!! They were simply affraid that owners of all the untypical, shy, too small dogs will travel abroad and take part in such PSEUDO-bonitation which you promote...

I understand that they don't want accept the results of Italian male and female who are EXTREMLY SHY but on the PSEUDO-bonitations made by you or with you the dogs get THE PERFECT character codes.

I understand that they don't want accept the results of dog which you measured 65cm, and who is in the reality 61-62 cm height...

Do you wonder that the Czech club do not want to accept other bonitation when there are more and more examples where a dog who will be in Czech Republic disqualified (P14) get by you or by your friends PERFECT bonitation code...

The same is with Wolfdog - in the database are more results 'recognized' - all the bonitations must fulfill are: they must be done according the valid bonitation regulations (Czech or Slovakian). Because of it the bonitation in Germany, Lithuania, Poland, France, Holland and some in Italy are considered as valid....

Pseudo-party-bonitation made according non-existing regulations are considered as "bonitation for fun" and are not listed...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

And strangers NOT NEED this FOR BREEDING! This acction is OPTIONAL!
You go with your dogs on bonitacion when you want, only and when you think, he can pass well it.... And you breed CSWs without bonitacion, too!

SO what happened Margo, somebody took the toys?

I see Monika you to no get the point - you to not understand the problem here...

Of course we all do not need the bonitations. We can breed WTHOUT THEM.
Of course we can make our own fake bonitation - we can meet us all on dog shows, grill parties or any other meetings and make some pseudo-bonitation written on our private bonitation cards.
You are RIGHT - WE CAN DO THIS. Ela can do it in Poland, people can do this in Germany, Holland, France, Italy, Finnland. In any country. And the Czech and Slovakian Club can not forbid people to do this. Czech and Slovakian Club do not have influence on it.

BUT IT IS NOT THE TOPIC HERE!!!

CzW owners from other countries do not want any FAKE bonitations!!!! If the Dutch and French clubs invite you they EXPECT that you will make a bonitation STRICTLY according VALID Czech regulations. They pay you for judgment and for the trip and expect PROFFESIONAL WORK. Not a parody "because they don't need it" but a REAL BONITATION looking exactly the same as the bonitations in Czech Republic.

The same was with Osieczna - the people there were thinking it will be CZECH bonitation made according CZECH rules, on the CZECH cards and that they will get CZECH bonitation codes.
And not FAKE bonitation made by a FAKE club, with FAKE codes written on a FAKE bonitation card.


It is so hard to understand the CzW owners do not want to have FAKE bonitations but they really want to do MORE than just the basic requirements in their countries.
And ESPECIALLY YOU, should help them. And not to try to convince them to make FAKE bonitation instead of bonitations made according valid regulations...


It is exactly the problem with Osieczna and bonitation in Poland. Please stop to tell some fairy-tales about the competition and rivals... That is (another) lie - I do not have any problems with people who want to organize bonitations in Poland. On the contrary - several breeders plan to make more bonitations in Poland this year and I help them as much I can. It is also in my interest to provide my puppy owners the possibility to make bonitation not only in Pozna but several times in a year - in different places in Poland (not only on the German border).
But I would like that they can pass REAL bonitation - not FAKE with FAKE codes but normal one: with real proffesional bonitation comittee, with real codes. On real cards.
All breeders who plan it want to do their job PROFESSIONALLY: they want to fullfil all reqirements. The bonitation in Osieczna was an exeption - and they KNEW they make it against the rules. But for them it was not important - important was to get good codes - in many cases MUCH better that they would get during a REAL bonitation... And you know what: the whole s'fight' was worth doing because the "osieczna team" was forced to gave up the organization of FAKE bonitations (like the one in 2009) and this year they prepare a REAL Czech bonitation which will be listed on Wolfdog when we will get the exact date.
No - nobody in Poland is against competition. We do not fight with people "thinking differently". Till they not start to LIE, to CHEAT and to DECEIVE...

I hope it is clear to you.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

You know the problem with Monika: she has HUGE problems to answer SIMPLY questions... On the polish version I asked her three times about the rules for the bonitation in Osieczna and people who were in the breeding comittee... NO ANSWER...

Typical - she never answer any problematic questions...

I know . But as a vet I have more than 20 years of experience in getting answers to my questions out of confused people. You just have to ask again and again and again, they will answer or they will disappear Till now I only was unsuccessfull once, with a mentally insane person.

So don´t give up, maybe one day we will have the shocking experience to get a direct answer to our questions.

Ina

[Monika]

I will respond to your graphomania attack, Margo is not necessary and everyone know you. (Me, too of course sweet Ina )

You're a great manipulator and Internet brawler.
The German, Polish, Belgian, Italian, Swiss, French, etc. bonitacion was called " all Czech and Slovak Commission?? Never!!
Except in Pávia 2008
This is your great delusion! And all oragnizators of abroad bonitations knows it.
Breeding Commission has meaning only in terms of controlled breeding in the CR and SR. Breeding committee member can become anyone. Not have to study its function, no school, no need to sit the exam! Accountability does not exist!
The situation in Poland I know
On abroad bonitacion is always invited Judge, only!!

And Your problems are for me ridiculous. Sit and write and write, dear Margo. I bealive, somebody will listen it... this is your life, very sad.
You and wolfdog. org isn ´t any official institution! You are not FCI and you not respect FCI or CMKU etc!...., You can´t to say who is Judge or not, that dog is a stud dog, who is the breeder FCI of CSWs or not. You trying only manipulate dates here! This is all.
For me this chapter closed. Dogs bonitation I reviewed 100x maybe 1 000 x however you try to challenge it, Margo, who has dogs from me and my person made bonitacion of them.

But your truth is always right, of course

Monika

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Well sorry, the German ones normally have, usuallly there is the judge, mostly the Slovakian breeding advisor and the responsible person of the German Club. The rules follow the Slovakian procedure. Slovakian judges don´t make bonitations when the rules aren´t followed.

And still no answer to this very simple question, maybe it was too difficult. Who made the rules? Who were the responsible persons beside you??
I am only interested in that one Polish Bonitation, you must remember, you have been there, it can´t be that difficult.

Ina

[Monika]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well sorry, the German ones normally have, usuallly there is the judge, mostly the Slovakian breeding advisor and the responsible person of the German Club. The rules follow the Slovakian procedure. Slovakian judges don´t make bonitations when the rules aren´t followed.

And still no answer to this very simple question, maybe it was too difficult. Who made the rules? Who were the responsible persons beside you??
I am only interested in that one Polish Bonitation, you must remember, you have been there, it can´t be that difficult.

Ina

I am absolutly sure, that everything was said here!
Read well and agian.
....and about which German bonitacion you are speaking.. " MOSTLY " ??
Ina stop these speculation!

Monika

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Who was in the comission and what rules did the bonitation follow??

Come on it can´t be that difficult to answer two questions!