My Worst Nightmare

[Rona]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

at the least if you can't get your property (dog) back, you can at least get what you're due money-wise back. maybe she can be required to show proof of payment in form of bank stub, money transfer or so.. by that i mean lack of such.

Were there any penalty clauses in the contract, Christine?

It would be good if somebody (a lawyer?) posted a draft of a model contract in which owners like Tessa B. would find it cheaper to return the dog than face the court and risk paying e.g. 20.000 GBP compensation

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Rona

Were there any penalty clauses in the contract, Christine?

Sadly not As I said before, a lot of lessons have been learnt the hard way... I will not be so naive and trusting in future.

Originally Posted by Rona

It would be good if somebody (a lawyer?) posted a draft of a model contract in which owners like Tessa B. would find it cheaper to return the dog than face the court and risk paying e.g. 20.000 GBP compensation

That would be wonderful if it were possible (would any of your contacts be able to advise on this, Yukidomari?)

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Rona

http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/18021

Admin, !
I wonder which decent owner or breeder would desire to have a dog with such inscription in the pedigree

Excellent work, perhaps admin might consider changing the name of the owner back to the breeder as well? Clearly this Tessa doesn't have any claim on the poor dog at all (she gave him up after all).

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Sadly not As I said before, a lot of lessons have been learnt the hard way... I will not be so naive and trusting in future.

So sad that your trust was so abused. Hopefully a lesson other breeders can learn from as well (((hugs)))

[pixie]

Is there any news on whats happening yet

[Shadowlands]

Nothing I can report on, Pixie. Don't worry, as soon as anything happens - you'll all know (whatever that may be...)

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Nothing I can report on, Pixie. Don't worry, as soon as anything happens - you'll all know (whatever that may be...)

Still got all fingers crossed for you and Braveheart.

[Shadowlands]

Thank you xx

[Baz]

Have there been any developments to report in this case?

[Shoshone]

As some of you may know I have Braveheart { Moon }
He has now been with me for a couple of months this is how Moon has developed since he has been with me at Wolfzone kennels uk.
Moon came here as his owner had serious issues with him as you will see from an email she sent me which I will add to this post.
Had Moon not have come to me he was going to be put to sleep.
I paid the outstanding money owed for the dog to his owner in the uk.
I paid a nominal fee for Moon and he is my dog he is not stolen and the contract is in the favour of the previous owner in the uk.
I am not here to argue I am clearly stating that Moon is owned by Wolfzone kennels.
He was m worse nightmare for 24 hours and I wondered what I had took on when I was stuck in a kennel with a rabid dog baring all his teeth and roaring at me.
Myself and Kirsty have spent an incredible amount of time working with Moon, I am not going to bore you with an account of everything we have done, and I don’t have the time to sit at the pc for hours.
It just goes to show you how much work has been done with him, Moon has a two day film shoot for the BBC next week.

EMAIL FROM TESSA BROWN TO ANDRE AT WOLFZONE KENNELS UK

Tale of caution for all people who are considering importing a puppy in from Europe
Dont!
MY simple and clear advice
This is my experience

I met someone who told me about this woman who was supposedly a really good family breeder in Bulgaria. she was also getting a puppy form her...
She had one puppy left and i connected with her and i told her that i needed a low ranking male, she assured me he was that and we agreed for me to buy him. She agreed to drive him over here and it all went according to plan. I was slightly concerned when she told me one of her dogs used to sit and watch him eat in case he missed something and the other cause of concern was he really missed another pack member when taken away. Little things come back to you...later on.
When he came he was an angry little puppy. Very grumpy and biting everything he could. She hadnt fed him much on the way over so he had started to eat his own shit which they do when theyre hungry
After two days she had to come and stay with me as i really wasnt getting on with him. My bitch didnt like him, his biting was off the richter scale and she stayed for a bit, on walks he was growling at other puppies. She kept making excuses for him and saying this was normal. At this point i should have given him back, but i dont give up easily and i also didnt know at this point the first 17 weeks are the most CRUCIAL in this breed of dog in their socialisation and development ( The daily mail recently had an article about this and how the wolf gene is different to the dog in development) I was already fighting a losing battle unbeknown to me, one he was actually an Alpha male and two he hadnt got the sufficient work in place that is essential for their well being.
I remember the amount of walking i had to do despite hime being a puppy as he was very aggressive still and hanging off myself and my bitch. I managed to stop this behaviour eventually but still couldnt work out why he was still growling at other dogs and puppies.
He went on to puppy classes and he did very well. We did our bronze obediance and passed. At the end of the classes i was noticing a new behaviour starting, he was lungeing at other dogs.
We moved to a very rural place. I tried to find good classes for him but at this point his lungeing at other dogs was becoming hard work.We met a trainer and she disciplined him for something and he left her arm dripping blood from his claws. He wasnt having someone tell him anything. We went to her puppy classes and his behaviour was appalling.
I found another behaviourist who said i would have problems with him and he would become aggressive. I didnt believe her and carried on with my training and walking them in remote and unpopulated places in a local forest and in the semi dark, so i didnt meet others.
I sent him to a residential trainer where he smashed up the kennel on the first night causing 500 pounds worth of damage and he was very difficult to work with so he came back early.
We came across one dog running towards us off lead and the owner had no recall, he got the lead out of my hands and ran up to the dog and body slammed him to the ground. He did have good recall and then came back. I was upset at this point. Walking had become a chore and a worry not the peaceful and relaxing time in Nature necessary to my mental and physical well being.
We did go to a wolfdog show, where he was lungeing a lot and being very nippy to my friends, which i dont accept or like. It was a very stressful weekend and i was more than exhausted. I decided to look into castration, but after pressure from the breeder about how he should be left to develop until two i didnt do it.
I did think about rehoming him at this point. The breeder suggested i gave him to a man who i didnt know or think was suitable. Not knowing anything about him and he was a long way from me so i wouldnt have been able to check on his progress. There were other factors but thats not relevant for here. I decided no and i would continue with working with him and doing my best. I started working with mushing them and walking them on a line and in harnesses. They both got fitter and stronger and our walks became faster and more furious. I noticed a change in his play, he started grabbing her back a lot but really hanging on to it. I stopped play when it got like that, and i wasnt happy about that at all.
I had another behaviourist in. The concensus was he wasnt socialised enough ( this is going back to the first 17 weeks, i got him at 15) so where can i socialise a big male with an attitude and lungeing problem and with whose dog? You cannot do this with unknown animals that belong to the general public and i couldnt find anyone with a dog i could use as a stooge with the right temperament. He had a chemical castration so i could see the effects of no testosterone and the behaviour continued, he wasnt interested sexually in any other dog. He continued to get worse.
Then the fight happened. I was walking at this point in a friends private wood. They were in the back of my land rover when all hell broke loose in the back right behind my head. I opened the back door and managed to get them out and it was stopped. His nose was bleeding, he had gone for my bitch, she had defended herself ( she has NEVER been in any fight in her life. She is four and a half). the next day we were out for nearly 3 hours so i thought they would be quite tired the following day. Not so, i let them off lead and the agitation between them was obvious, at this point he was running alongside her and grabbing her back hard.I stopped play and went home. We met someone with a male dog on the way back, his attempts to get the male dog were so determined i had to put the line round a tree to hold him. At this point i gave up and made a phone call to Andre. I couldnt risk a fight in the middle of nowhere and my girl getting hurt. How would i have got her to safety and managed to contain him at the same time? The simple answer is it would have been impossible. His size was much bigger than her and he was determined with winning the fight for supremacy in the household. He was not the right dog to be in my family and environment
Luckily Andre helped me
It broke my heart. I was so torn and upset as i had tried my absolute best. Then the breeder turned against me, after sending Andre an email thanking her for rescuing him, then demanding him back. I am happy with my choice and decision. He is happy and is unstressed and much calmer. He was never going to fit in my house and it was a potential terrible accident waiting to happen. I did consult many people who had experience with my story and who are behaviourists. They told me i was being responsible and doing the right thing.
I stand by my decision with MY dog. I was not handing him over to a woman who missold me him the first place and couldnt do the right socialisation,bring in bite inhibition, stop food aggression and who wanted me to give him to people she choose despite not knowing them and her living abroad. I have regular contact with Andre and Moon, in fact i cant tell you how hard everyone works to ensure the high standards of cleanliness, the good quality food they are fed, the training and socialising that is done. It is the best possible place for him. he was not a dog that could have been rehomed to a family. I didnt mention the destruction either and that was with the huge amount of physical exercise and mental stimulation he had with me. He was not the right dog in the right house and that is what the breeder should be aware of. My heart was destined to be broken right at the beginning. Now i see and hear many stories which are libellous and slanderous about me and Andre. How sad is that. He is happy and healthy and in a good place where i can remain in contact and he doesnt slip down the slippery rehoming slope where dogs with issues and problems invariably go ending up in awful homes, chained up and much worse. I was responsible for his well being and i made the right informed decision. He is a different animal know as Andre knows more about the wolf dogs than anyone i have come across. She is the best possible person to bring out the best qualities in him. I respect her and i trust her. He is happy and thats all that mattters. Moral of the story do NOT buy from abroad. You cannot ensure what you are getting, the work put in, munay had terrible seperation anxiety as all the puppies were kept together and then he was pulled away for his journey. He smashed crates like egg boxes as a result. He had bad food aggression when he came, he had no manners at all, he bit badly..and the saddest of all being sold the wrong dog after specifically asking for low ranking and being given a top ranking male he was destined never to stay. You do not want to go through this. It is the most heartbreaking experience i have had to deal with in many years. It also could have been avoided. Do not buy from abroad.

[yukidomari]

Reading the email from the original lady who kept Braveheart it seems he behaved as a normal developing immature male Czechoslovakian Vlcak? It's not for fun when people say they are 'dominant and challenging' dogs to own; it's only a shame that the owner did not realize this and neither did the breeder realize this in the potential new owner. Everything that was written there I have experienced first hand in young and immature Vlcaks.

Coprophagia is common for many dogs and isn't indicative of anything. Vlcaks biting, and biting HARD, jumping, mouthing, destroying things and being dominant towards other dogs is not exactly rare and unheard of, unless a person decided not to do any research whatsoever. A Vlcak, especially a male, seeming to be impossibly wild and 'aggressive' at right around the 1 year mark is WELL within the norm and could even be said to be the normal course of development in their maturity. She asked for a submissive male, perhaps she got the most submissive one of the litter? But he is STILL a Vlcak. A Vlcak (or any dog for that matter) behaving aggressively when suddenly rehomed especially as an adult is not exactly surprising either.

I don't know what the contract is between the breeder and the owner but if the breeders' contract stated rights of first refusal, which is what I gather (and common here to well-written contracts), then he should have first been (and the owner is obliged to) offered to the breeder to buy back. And in any case the contract probably laid out, or should have laid out, stipulations in regards to rehoming and breeding, including surrender, cross breeding, breeding without registration, and so on. If so, that's what I suspect the legal action is for. If not, then I think the breeder can take this as a lesson well learned.

Dogs are not predictable machines, they are living, growing, and learning creatures. Even the best breeder can't predict with absolute certainty how a dog will turn out. All a breeder can do is offer to take the dog back and take responsibility for him, which is what appears to be the case.

A buyer should take responsibility for their decisions; when somebody buys a breed widely said to be dominant and challenging and wants otherwise, that is a problem in itself, especially if the person wants a young puppy, all of which grow and have huge potential for change..

[akna]

Much to be said about the breeder selling a dog that is known to be such to a person that clearly could not and can not deal with it! You only have to meet the woman to know this.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by akna

Much to be said about the breeder selling a dog that is known to be such to a person that clearly could not and can not deal with it! You only have to meet the woman to know this.

it ultimately is always the breeder's responsibility in my opinion, and it's why breeding shouldn't be taken lightly.. but perhaps more to be said about the breeder is that she's trying to handle the mess. One thing to sell a dog stupidly and wash your hands of it, and another to realize a mistake and attempt to fix it............

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Shoshone

. Do not buy from abroad.

Seems to me a piece of advertising of your own kennel! Show me ONE breeder in the UK who is breeding ethically, and only pure CSVs!
I don't breed myself, but I'm sick of reading about all those 1/2, 1/4, 1/3 and the half () CSVs bred by the British pup producers and then put on sale on auctions. I would never advise anybody to buy a puppy in the UK BEFORE the breed is recognized and honest, and decent people start ethical breeding there.

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Rona

Seems to me a piece of advertising of your own kennel! Show me ONE breeder in the UK who is breeding ethically, and only pure CSVs!
I don't breed myself, but I'm sick of reading about all those 1/2, 1/4, 1/3 and the half () CSVs bred by the British pup producers and then put on sale on auctions. I would never advise anybody to buy a puppy in the UK BEFORE the breed is recognized and honest, and decent people start ethical breeding there.

Owning a crossbreed dog who has huge problems of his own from the now 'owner' of Moon (due to lack of early socialisation and care) I can only agree with you.

I have been sickened reading about what has happened to Braveheart. He was taken on by this kennel for purely selfish reasons. No Decent or ethical breeder on the Continent would sell (knowingly) to a breeder such as this, and this has been a chance to gain a new dog from good bloodlines.....and what makes me SICK, is that even stating how terrible this dog's temperament was she was offering him as a Stud dog on her webpages within a week!!!!
That says it all for me. Despicable behaviour from someone who holds her own contracts in such high regard to blatantly ignore those of another breeder.

[Tazer]

So, if this dog has such an atrocious temperament, has been and still is? Such hard work, what ethical person would consider breeding from him and risk passing the traits on? After all, temperament isn't all environment.
I own a dog of the live stock guarding type known to be stubborn, independent and obviously guardy, he'll guard when let off lead, he's turning into a proficient watchdog... Research told me he was unlikely to behave like a stereotypical Labrador and that's not what I wanted.
Even the most basic breed descriptions of the CSV, makes a point of stating that they can be challenging, and males especially, so frankly, I don't know what else was expected?
Perhaps there was an underestimation of the level of challenge and perhaps the breeder believed that wasn't the case, at least the breeder is trying to fix the error.


Taz

[Shoshone]

I own a number of csv's including Moon and as i emailed the breeder and TOLD HER CLEARLY Moon is HD tested and he has a very good score.

[Tassle]

So all these temperament issues that you yourself have stated he had, and his previous owner said he had mean nothing? As long as he has good hips??

Either a) you are both exaggerating his behaviour - or b) you care nothing for temperament in your breeding program.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Shoshone

I own a number of csv's including Moon and as i emailed the breeder and TOLD HER CLEARLY Moon is HD tested and he has a very good score.

Is the good HD result your ONLY prerequisite for using a dog for breeding??? What about its compatibility with the standard re the dog's appearance and temperament? Not to mention such trifle as the dog reaching maturity - no good breeder would breed on a pup and proclaim a one year old dog a stud!

Until the breed is oficially recognized, breeding Czechoslovakian vlcaks in the UK is impossible. Production of wolf-like looking pups for money has nothing to do with breeding! No dog born in England can obtain a CSV pedigree and later be used in ethical, proper breeding in UK, nor abroad!

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Shoshone

He was m worse nightmare for 24 hours and I wondered what I had took on when I was stuck in a kennel with a rabid dog baring all his teeth and roaring at me.

24-hours as a nightmare Vlcak seems a pretty good boy ..

I think you can find many happy owners of normal Vlcaks who will say their little nightmare was for about two years or so ...