DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

[jasmine]

As we are just breeders and not the God , of course problems could appear. The question is always that how could we handle the problems.

DM is exist . But it is quite complex problem, as that kind of physical ruination could be caused many many other things , especial old age. There are many illnes with almost the same symphtoms.
We still do not know too many things about DM , still are many open questions.
So I think we have to make DM test...but we have to handle the result in "right place". These test will have spell some years later , when more % of the population will be checked and we could see the problematic lines and the inheritance of the bad gene (which is real cause problem).

[jeannie]

Rona,

of course it does make sense to test as much as possible dogs. We are just at the beginning of the research and need all possible data. To see if it is a general problem or if there are only some lines affected - every test result helps.
Good people are working on a solution to get needed data, please stay open minded until they have new information and then decide if you will test your dog or not.

Best regards
Stefan

[saschia]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Do you remember that you have been in germany in may to the speciality with your dwarf 6 month old csw? Afterwards we had some pn contact. People over there told me that that dwarf pup is from Ondraj. I did not know that it is your pup. When we were in contact, I did ask you, if it is true what I heard? I got til today no answer.

I think it is just the stated reason. Why do you want to know which breeder it is from? The breeder is not guilty of producing the dwarf pup and therefore should not be punished by negative references. Why do you speculate and try to deduce the information that a person, who knows about the disease and promotes the mechanisms to eradicate it, does not want to reveal? Mijke has very good reason - this one:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It would be a good thing if people start to be honest and breeders would not breed with ill dogs, like your breeder did. Maybe he did not know till his litter came. But now he has to stop breeding his bitch.

What you write is not true! First, nobody sane breeds with dog affected by dwarfism or DM, or any such crippling disease. They may breed the carriers only. And it is OK to breed carriers! It is only important not to combine them with other carriers. If you stop all carriers from breedeing, you will have only a small population of dogs, and you yourself say that inbreeding is a bad thing.

Lot of people would not buy from breeders that are known to have carriers, so how can you expect them to advertise it? That is what keeps a lot of people from testing their animals - they are afraid of a witch hunt just like yours.

[jasmine]

You are right.Many people are philistin.

[saschia]

Just a quick math to show why breeding carriers is OK:

Let's say A is gene for DM or dwafism - single gene disorder. The form A is normal, the form a is mutant. So AA is clean, Aa is carrier and aa is affected (on the level of genome, in case of DM it does not have to show).

If you combine carrier Aa with clean AA, you'll get these possibilities: 50% AA, 50% Aa. So no pups will be affected and any pup has a 50% probability that it is a carrier, but also 50% probability that it is clean!

If you combine two carriers, you'll get 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa. But, in dwarfism, some dwarves die before being born, in DM not all affected animals actually get sick. So any live-born pup has a 50% chance of being carrier, 25% chance of being clean, and less than 25% chance of being affected and sick. If you have a rare bloodline, even combining carriers might be more beneficial to the whole population, than loss of the genetic material. The dog may be DM carrier, but it may also be, at the same time, clean for dwarfism, or other genetic disorders...

The more disorders you can test for, the more difficult it is to find good combinations, so it is important to keep in mind that sometimes the risks should be taken, and although it is very sad if a pup is born sick, it is still more sad if no pups are born at all.

[yukidomari]

Good post, Saschia.

Very interesting and heartening to read so many knowledgeable posts and to know that there are many people who care about this topic a lot.

[massimo]

I just want to underline once again that Blaming a breeder is NOT important in this case, DM is a recent thing (not the illness but the widespread knowledge we have about it) therefore it is USELESS to start blaming this or that breeder because of the breeding plans he did.
We should all CHANGE our perspective now...
It is POSSIBLE to breed dogs in a wide variety even if they are not N/N, all we have to do is to pay a LOT of attention.
Of course, If I have a positive dog, I would be careful which male or female I would use her/him with, but it doesn't mean the dog MUST be put out of breeding.
So, it is important to underline and stress the fact that, just because a breeder made a test on his reproducers and found out somebody is carrier or positive, this is NOT to be condemned, but instead , it is good information and will allow to make FUTURE breeding plans without the "ghost" of making a DM Positive dog.
I personally have more esteem and respect for a breeder who has a certified positive DM dog than for one who has many dogs with NO results.
I'd personally go for the Positive DM dog who is mated in an appropriate way than no info at all....

[massimo]

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.
That is REALLY a hysterical reaction, totally WRONG.
I hope everybody doesn't get hysterical about things.
A POSITIVE dog is not a SICK dog, he just is "at risk" for DM.
A CARRIER or NEGATIVE dog will never be sick for DM

DM/DM=Positive (He "could" be sick of DM, he surely will pass the gene but only "risk" about illness)
DM/N=Carrier (he CANNOT be sick of DM, he "could" pass the gene)
N/N= Negative (non può avere DM, he CANNOT pass the gene)

This is obvious to many but it seems not to ALL:

Possible Combinations:
DM/DM + DM/DM = DM/DM 100%
DM/DM + DM/N = DM/DM 75%, DM/N 25%
DM/DM + N/N = DM/N 100%
DM/N + DM/N = DM/DM 25%, DM/N 50%, N/N 25%
DM/N + N/N = DM/N 25%, N/N 75%
N/N + N/N = N/N 100%

The "risky" couplings are the ones indicated in bold
No mating will SURELY give sick dogs, because even a Positive dog can be super healthy till he dies.
I believe best would be to "avoid" risky matings but not to condemn them.

It is true, if you don't care about making puppies it's not so important to make the test...BUT
if you do make the test
1)you give indirect information about the parents of your dog ( a N/N dog CANNOT come from a DM/DM dog, a DM/DM dog CANNOT come from an N/N dog)
2) you will be more careful about the illness if you know your dog is DM/DM, you will be more careful about symptoms, and eventual cures that will be discovered.
3) you will anyway contribute to map the illness/genetic predisposition and to help find out if it's as widespread as is believed or if it is a minor problem for our breed.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by massimo

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.

Are they totally crazy please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Are they totally crazy please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian
Very best regards / Mikael

Believe me...on Italian forum has been written a lot more than here, just that people tend to be affected by hysteria, so short recaps (like I did both here and there) are sometimes necessary.
Not crazy nor stupid... just distracted, excited, scared...

[Gypsy Wolf]

It is foolish to remove A/A dogs from the gene pool if they have qualities we need in the breed - not to mention simply keeping our gene pool from becoming too small... carefully planned breeding, with screening for the genes, is what we need to do. Of course it is every breeders choice whether they screen or breed to Abnormal dogs...
A/A dogs are only at risk for DM, as stated before. Apparently there are other factors (perhaps developmental, nutritional, environmental) that affect whether or not the dog develops the disease.
Here in FL we are lucky to have Dr. Clemmons, a world-renowned expert on the disease who actually found the genes and devised the test. He also has designed a specific nutritional, vitamin/mineral/nutroceutical program for those dogs that have DM, and has advocated putting at risk dogs on the program, too, with the hopes of staving off contracting the symptoms. It is really unknown whether or not this affects progression of the disease, as it is so variable in progression from patient to patient, so even a "control" group of DM dogs is not necessarily going to help prove efficacy of the program.
I have spoken to him several times on the phone regarding DM, as I have had several friends with dogs who have contracted the disease, and I also have GSDs and occasionally breed my GSD. He feels that up to 50% of GSDs carry an Abnormal allele - whether they are A/N or A/A - so testing is important. Interestingly, I am the only breeder I know of in this area that tests for it. The other breeders I know down here scoff at the test saying it's "too new" and "doesn't mean anything." Personally, I think they are afraid of knowing if their dogs are carrying the genetics... that would mean they would have to inform puppy buyers, and potentially remove some of their stock. One breeder I know cranks out puppies for profit (she has well-bred parents - SchH titled sire) and is already on her "P" litter after only about 3 years of breeding... I personally know her male is a carrier, but she doesn't care and is not going to test her bitches, puppies or even mention the disease to her buyers. I wonder what will happen a few years down the road when some of those buyers tell her their dog is afflicted with DM? It is a genetically-based disease, and her contract guarantees genetic health. Here in FL she would be responsible for not only the purchase price of the puppy, but all the resultant medical bills, too. So stupid to ignore a problem like that - ethically and financially, in her case.
It's one thing if you don't know, and have no way of finding out, but it's another to turn a blind eye to such a debilitating disease... to knowingly produce Abnormal animals, that may potentially be used for breeding themselves... morally reprehensible, in my opinion, and a disservice to the breed.

[draggar]

OK, I am mad, annoyed, and highly disappointed in the GSD community now.

Over 24 hours ago I posted a "why don't breeders test for DM" in a popular German shepherd based forum. I went into the benefits of testing, how it can be used, even the minimal costs of the tests ($130 for a breeding pair!!).

The thread has had 31 views. Anyone want to take a guess at how many responses?

25? Nope, lower.

20? Nope, lower.

15? Nope, lower.

5??? Nope, lower.

1???? Nope, lower.

That's right, not a single person (and there are many breeders on the forum) responded. Are German shepherd "professionals" this apathetic towards the test? Do they just not care??

All well as responses I get from so-called ethical breeders (like, "we don't test because it's not in our lines" or "we've never had an issue with DM so we don't test for it", and "the test isn't worth it").

Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot

Seriously, is this where the breed is headed? It's easy to breed DM into dogs and I'm sure it won't be long until DM is a serious issue (well, moreso than it is now). Statistically, 50% of GSDs are carriers (N/A or A/N) and only 25% are clear (N/N) (and the other 25% are affected (A/A).

I'm just glad that we tested Kiri and she's N/N. We can breed her to any male and guarantee (short of any genetic mutation, which the chances are extremely small) that her puppies WILL NOT develop DM - EVER.

[massimo]

Just for Public info as there is not a "DM" space to be put on WD dog profile yet (hope there will be soon)

Echo Crying Wolf
DM N/N = Negative

[Mikael]

Degenerative Myelopathy Testing

A DNA Test for
DM

Understanding the DNA Test for Degenerative Myelopathy

"We have discovered a mutation in a gene which is associated with development of degenerative myelopathy (DM).
In that gene, the DNA occurs in two possible forms (or alleles). The “G” allele is the predominant form in dogs that seldom or never develop DM; you can think of it as the “Good” allele. The “A” allele is more frequent in dogs exhibiting clinical signs of DM; you can think of it as the “Affected” allele.
Summary: “A” allele is associated with DM; “G” allele is not associated with DM.

Since an individual dog inherits two alleles (one from the sire and one from the dam) there are three possible test results: two “A” alleles; one “A” and one “G” allele; and, two “G” alleles.
Summary: Test results can be A/A (affected/at risk), A/G (carrier), or G/G (normal) .

Microscopic examination of a section of spinal cord (following euthanasia) is the "gold standard" for diagnosing and confirming DM. We do not have the opportunity to examine cord samples from all the dogs that have died or been euthanized due to DM, but for those cords submitted for evaluation, and where the cellular changes have been consistent with a diagnosis of DM, the dogs have had a DNA test result of A/A in all but 2 individuals. There is additional work being done to better understand these 2 exceptions, but it is clear that the vast majority of real DM cases do have the A/A test result.
Summary: Dogs that test A/G or G/G are very unlikely to develop DM. Dogs that test A/A are likely to develop clinical signs of DM at some point as they age.

Additional research now in progress is focused on understanding why some A/A dogs show clincal signs of DM at 7 or 8 years of age while others only begin to show clinical signs at 14 or 15yrs or older, or may die from some other cause without developing recognized clinical signs of DM.

The “A” allele is very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate the dogs testing A/A or A/G might be destructive to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dogs and a very unpleasant experience for the owners who care for them. Thus, a realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to consider dogs with the A/A or A/G test result to have a fault, just as a poor top-line or imperfect gait would be considered faults. Dogs that test A/A should be considered to have a worse fault than those that test A/G. Dog breeders could then continue to do what conscientious breeders have always done: make their selections for breeding stock in light of all of the dogs’ good points and all of the dogs’ faults. Using this approach over many generations should substantially reduce the prevalence of DM while continuing to maintain or improve those qualities that have contributed to the various dog breeds.

Summary: We recommend that dog breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize this test result. Instead, the test result is one factor among many in a balanced breeding program."

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MORE INFO HERE >>> www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/testDM.htm