Tamaskan CsW crossing - Page 2

wolfin · 31-10-2012, 14:45

only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results.
and yes I agree with Rona 10000%.

Rona · 31-10-2012, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

My students sometimes claim that there is nothing wrong in plagiarism, because others do it. Sorry, but such arguments do not appeal to me.

Personally I think that honest people should obey the rules of organisations and institutions, especially of those they volountarily belong to, whether this applies to dog breeding, or any other field.

I'm surprised, you have another opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

By insulting another breed?

Who insulted which breed?

I have nothing against any breed, nor against mixes or mongrels, only against people who thoughtlessly produce them without considering the far effects of their deeds

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

This is exactly what I did.

EOT

leila · 31-10-2012, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results.
and yes I agree with Rona 10000%.

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

avgrunn · 31-10-2012, 18:40

The news about mixing csv with a tamaskan are just so sad and dissapointing

yukidomari · 31-10-2012, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by leila

you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed.

being that the 'registry' approved this cross means that the dogs are currently simply mixed breeds to begin with.. not a breed, anyway.

Puma · 01-11-2012, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patty33

If anyone is interested in a puppy from this mating then you can contact me: XXXX "

This part is revealing the real motives.

A person in need of money.

Not a breeder, that has any noble intentions for the animal itself.

I am disgusted with the action and with the breeder.

Juri Z.P. · 01-11-2012, 18:26

Yes

sad and dissapointing

yukidomari · 01-11-2012, 18:35

a CzW male this kennel planned to use for this bitch is still too young this year.

so this year she plans to have a mixed litter and next year a purebred litter with the planned male. on another forum this kennel wrote something like, it's never too late to learn about a new breed. that's true - except 'tamaskan' is not a breed and anyway personally i think even if it were, learning about a new breed precludes an amateur to the breed from deciding to breed mixed ones.

like was previously said - just a commercial opportunity.

tupacs2legs · 01-11-2012, 22:19

All my other feelings on this subject aside.......

They want the 'wolfy look' of the csv but not the temperament. ...... risky!!!! For them and for our breed

Nebulosa · 02-11-2012, 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by leila

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".
I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

yukidomari · 02-11-2012, 19:04

anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland.

And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead?

And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos?

Czertice · 03-11-2012, 13:38

From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle.

Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail.

There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet.

Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf.

Puma · 03-11-2012, 13:49

First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open.

Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it?

A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective.

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

miran · 03-11-2012, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

Even when you know ( and this breeder also know that) that these mating will not happen when there aren't enough people on the list for the pups?

Puma · 03-11-2012, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

Even when you know ( and this breeder also know that) that these mating will not happen when there aren't enough people on the list for the pups?

Especially when the mating will only happen with enough people on the list. That confirms the commercial goal, doesn't it?

miran · 03-11-2012, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma

Especially when the mating will only happen with enough people on the list. That confirms the commercial goal, doesn't it?

Not in my eyes. Because if it was a commercial goal( beside that in my opinion every nest is even from 1 that just had 1 in there life because no breeder give their pups away fro free

) than you would have this nest no matter what
Than you do not care about if people are interested in an outcross pup or not. And than also you sell them as the same price as a tamaskan and not a reduced price because they are outcross and needs to be evaluated on an later age etc etc.
But of course it is just the way someone can look at it and all have the right of a different opinion....But when all is out in the open( so being done honestly and we all know that lots of people in every breed even do that) and they thought about what and how sorry than I can not see that the main goal is commercial but than I only think that I wish all breeders would think about that so no pup have to leave there nest when they are already months old or like some others have in their short lives different houses already because they where leftover form a litter so people just took them because they felt sorry But like I say just my opinion and you do not have to share that

Puma · 03-11-2012, 15:42

Miran,

Do you know this breeder? I do.

Lots of experiences, which I won't mention here.

Your comment about not giving away pups for free, as a statement as if each breeder is commercially driven, makes of course no sense at all. Thankfully there are breeders with the passion and love for the animals and the breed, who break even or even lose out some money and there are breeders, whose sole intention is to make money and use the breed for doing so.

I know who is in which category.

miran · 03-11-2012, 15:52

Last comment indeed make no sense on the subject but that is just my personal opinion about all breeding bad or good mixes or pure etc

For other I send you a pm

Angelika · 03-11-2012, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".

Yes, Paula, I´ve the same feeling. Wolfdogs were banned in the U.K. So it seems that they mixed a bit and called their "wolf-a-like dogs without any wolfblood" Utonagan - a name without any advertising effect. After a little tour to Finland a new name was created: Tamaskan. Sounds better - grin.

Quote:

I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

If I understand Puma correctly I should answer with a Liza Minnelli-song

wolfin · 04-11-2012, 03:13

from my info

price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree

and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too

but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter

or with price include vactination and pet pasport

31-10-2012, 14:45	#21
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results. and yes I agree with Rona 10000%. __________________

31-10-2012, 18:40	#24
avgrunn Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Trójmiasto Posts: 1,756	The news about mixing csv with a tamaskan are just so sad and dissapointing __________________ Ja & Urciowaty

01-11-2012, 18:26	#27
Juri Z.P. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 146	Yes sad and dissapointing __________________ [email protected]

01-11-2012, 18:35	#28
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	a CzW male this kennel planned to use for this bitch is still too young this year. so this year she plans to have a mixed litter and next year a purebred litter with the planned male. on another forum this kennel wrote something like, it's never too late to learn about a new breed. that's true - except 'tamaskan' is not a breed and anyway personally i think even if it were, learning about a new breed precludes an amateur to the breed from deciding to breed mixed ones. like was previously said - just a commercial opportunity. __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

02-11-2012, 19:04	#31
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland. And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead? And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos? __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

01-11-2012, 22:19	#29
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	All my other feelings on this subject aside....... They want the 'wolfy look' of the csv but not the temperament. ...... risky!!!! For them and for our breed

03-11-2012, 13:38	#32
Czertice Rakša Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Praha Posts: 292	From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle. Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail. There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet. Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf. __________________

03-11-2012, 13:49	#33
Puma Ottokar lovers Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 271	First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open. Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it? A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective. To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

03-11-2012, 15:42	#37
Puma Ottokar lovers Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 271	Miran, Do you know this breeder? I do. Lots of experiences, which I won't mention here. Your comment about not giving away pups for free, as a statement as if each breeder is commercially driven, makes of course no sense at all. Thankfully there are breeders with the passion and love for the animals and the breed, who break even or even lose out some money and there are breeders, whose sole intention is to make money and use the breed for doing so. I know who is in which category. Last edited by Puma; 03-11-2012 at 17:57.

03-11-2012, 15:52	#38
miran Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 245	Last comment indeed make no sense on the subject but that is just my personal opinion about all breeding bad or good mixes or pure etc For other I send you a pm

04-11-2012, 03:13	#40
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	from my info price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter or with price include vactination and pet pasport __________________