good training/behaviour young CSV

[TimoleonVieta]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

We all look forward to seeing pictures and hearing who this puppy is (it is important that you get in contact with some of the breed guardians in the UK as the KC demands 20 individual, unrelated dogs in the country before they will consider recognising the breed - something I am sure you would hope will happen too)

This would be a pleasure. Due to my lifestyle many people will meet my CSV & I hope we will be both good ambassadors for the breed.

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

.. isnt TimoleonVieta a book?

Yes, about a mongrel

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

I also do not like encouraging a dog with food, merely that they will like there own & take pleasure from it. In training & learning I need to reserve judgement & plan both ways depending on how I find her young character & how well we can relate & learn without a chicken in my pocket & a car full of stinking tripe

From my very limited experience (I only own one Czech WD, so I don't want to generalize) I think if you like a dog you can't just relate to simply through a bunch of positive and negative reinforcements, you will probably enjoy this breed.

I find that my dog likes the idea of "collaboration" for a common interest much more than he likes to do something that in his head has no meaning for a bite of chicken. The fact that he is able to reach his goal by doing his part in a team play is extremely rewarding for him and I believe it strengthen the bond as well.

[TimoleonVieta]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I find that my dog likes the idea of "collaboration" for a common interest much more than he likes to do something that in his head has no meaning for a bite of chicken. The fact that he is able to reach his goal by doing his part in a team play is extremely rewarding for him and I believe it strengthen the bond as well.

I watched your beautiful videos, they have brought back many memories. When you walk alone with him, he constantly looks back at you. He seems so interested in the world around him, but no more so than checking you are with him.

The dog is so free within himself & still dedicated to you. Maybe the best number is two, one man & his dog. It is making me wonder if I am making the right choice to want a bitch of this breed more than a boy

Can I ask a couple more things? Was it exactly 60 days when you took him with you? & do you know if he was the dominant alpha male of his litter?

[AMERICANI]

Yes, I think I have one of each also.. and of those which did "negative" things as puppies (puppies get into trouble - this is a fact of life), those same dogs are my most motivated to do things.

[Czertice]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

I really enjoyed the webpage, it's a mine of information for the novice & photographer to. Konrad Lorenz seems to have had a good effect on you as well as the breeders good advice you sought. I will look more into Mr Lorenz he's ideas are facinating.

May I ask, considering you had Shiva the cat at the time you brought your puppy home, how you think things might have gone had you had your own 8 month old female collie dog or similar at the home when you introduced Raksha to your lives.

It is a hard thing to hypothesize but do you think this may have helped Raksha bond with other females & been a managable relationship in itself.

I am attracted to this combination because I feel that a well loved & secure collie is one of the most humble animals on earth. That it may prove to be a nice foil & friend for the CSV. Not only that I want a CSV so much but couldn't wait 13 years or more for another collie!

I honestly don't have a clue about a collie, cats live in a whole different world from dogs:]
I have been warned that if you already have a dog, the wolfdog puppy might bond more with the dog than with you, or be too much dependent on the other dog.
Raksha can live with Shiva, but her relationship with him has no effect on her behavior to other cats, she loves chasing them, no matter what.

[Rona]

It's very hard to write about upbringing and traning a vlcak, becasue it's a very "private" experience and depends a lot on the individal character of the dog and the owner. There is more of relationship building than training itslef in it, and methods that work for one CSV not necessarily do for another.

IMO a person who is mentally strong and is aware of his own strengths and weaknesses + has learnt about the breed specificity and is open minded has better chance to succeed than someboy who carries a vision what his dog should be like and wants to tailor it to this shape. I don't mean you, these are just general comments.

There are some principles of which it's good to know:
1. vlcaks are meant to teach their owners humility - and thus people who have more distance to themselves and are able to take things with humour are more prone to enjoy their vlcak pups. They take a lot from their owners, but always give more, that's why it's so easy to forgive them all their mischiefs. When they're young every day's a bit like this: General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

2. They are exteremly rational in their "reasoning", though the reasoning is not necessarily human-like. Thus the ability to understands what the vlcak wants to tell you is crucial for training. The owner must remember that in case of CSVs communication is a two-way process to much greater extent than in case of other breeds. Vlcaks never destroy things for fun - it is one of the methods they communiate things to their owners - a signal that the communiation channel must be improved. They learn by doing, so whenever they do something bad, don't give them any chance to repeat that.

3. Vlcaks' senses are more sensitive than of other dogs and definitely of humans' and their empathy is enorumous. This may lead to problems, because the dog might react to something "mysterious" the owner is not aware of. Our late Tina was most placid and trustful animal, but three times in her 14 years long life reacted with agression or fear towards humans. In one case we later found out the guy was a dog fat trader () , in another - a person guilty of home violence. She simply "knew" what we couldn't have known.

4 If the owner manages to build a sound relationship with the dog, the dog will behave in a rational way in genuine circumstances. GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%. But then, why should they? They have their own brains and know when obedinece is vital, and when they're only doing things for fun and sport. That's why it's good if a vclak has a job - does something which is imporant for the owner and "genuine" in the dog's perception.

We can take our vlcak everywhere now, just like we were able to take our late Tina: to a party, restaurant, store, to walk with her in the woods without a leash, she's extremely good with our grandson (2). We can travel with her by bus, tram and in a car, we take her to dog playground (though have to be careful with strange, fearful females, like others mentioned above). We practise mantrailing and she treats this very seriously - this is her real job! But we've learnt all those things by doing, and on the way experienced several ups and downs, which were part of the fun of having a CSV. There are still things we simply have to put up with, like her welcome jumping on the people she loves We treat this as part of the mutual contract and secretly enjoy

I hope these comments will help you understand your little girl when she arrives. Happy New Year!

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Rona

General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

Very good post Rona, but particularly liked this bit of advice

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

Can I ask a couple more things? Was it exactly 60 days when you took him with you? & do you know if he was the dominant alpha male of his litter?

If I remember correctly, he was 61 days old. I wouldn't know about alphas, but he was quite "bossy" with his littermates... I also remember he growled to his mom when she tried to scold him

Originally Posted by Rona

1. vlcaks are meant to teach their owners humility - and thus people who have more distance to themselves and are able to take things with humour are more prone to enjoy their vlcak pups. They take a lot from their owners, but always give more, that's why it's so easy to forgive them all their mischiefs. When they're young every day's a bit like this: General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

2. They are exteremly rational in their "reasoning", though the reasoning is not necessarily human-like. Thus the ability to understands what the vlcak wants to tell you is crucial for training. The owner must remember that in case of CSVs communication is a two-way process to much greater extent than in case of other breeds. Vlcaks never destroy things for fun - it is one of the methods they communiate things to their owners - a signal that the communiation channel must be improved. They learn by doing, so whenever they do something bad, don't give them any chance to repeat that.

4 If the owner manages to build a sound relationship with the dog, the dog will behave in a rational way in genuine circumstances. GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%. But then, why should they? They have their own brains and know when obedinece is vital, and when they're only doing things for fun and sport. That's why it's good if a vclak has a job - does something which is imporant for the owner and "genuine" in the dog's perception.

I pretty much agree with Rona's picture of the breed, especially with these three points...

I think their "rationality" makes them extremely good at learning from real life experiences, and also makes them "wiser" as they live, learn and make mistakes. Personally, this is something I absolutely love about my dog.

I believe there are some breeds whose behavior is very conditioned by their genetics and by what they are selectively bred for, and this makes them very "instinctive" in some circumstances, they shut down their brain, and this makes more difficult to modify some parts of their behavior. For example there are some breeds that are genetically inclined to be aggressive with other dogs, breeds whose prey drive is stronger than their reasoning, or breeds who don't have any sense of danger and self preservation when they are doing what they are bred to do.

I would say (at least from what I can see with my dog) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are less "instinctive" and more rational in a lot of situations, and even when you may not be able to control them, they basically control themselves (depending on what experience taught them). I find this extremely useful in "real life", because if you manage to expose them to the right experiences in the right way, they can become very "trustworthy".

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I would say (at least from what I can see with my dog) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are less "instinctive" and more rational in a lot of situations, and even when you may not be able to control them, they basically control themselves (depending on what experience taught them). I find this extremely useful in "real life", because if you manage to expose them to the right experiences in the right way, they can become very "trustworthy".

I agree, with one reservation. It works like you've described it, provided the dog learns new things gradually and internalizes them - i.e. obeys because he chooses to follow pack pinciples and finds such behaviour rewarding, (a pup gets treats, when adult - is usually praised + sometimes gets treats).

Any training shorcuts, like prong collars, physical penalities, electric fences, etc. IMO do not work for vlcaks. I mean even if they do - when the owner is not looking the dog does what he wants. It works exactly like with kids - aggressive behaviour is the best lesson of aggressive behaviour!

Though positive training methods are the best it doesn't mean that CSV are to be trained only by them. Negative ones IMO should be rather based on signalling the dog verbally and nonverbally the owner's discontent and even genuine anger. It must be sincere, because it's hard to fool them.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Rona

Though positive training methods are the best it doesn't mean that CSV are to be trained only by them. Negative ones IMO should be rather based on signalling the dog verbally and nonverbally the owner's discontent and even genuine anger. It must be sincere, because it's hard to fool them.

Shadow knows when she has done something wrong if I stand with my hands on my hips and look stern - I don't have to say a word, she instantly stops the 'bad' behaviour and sits until I relax my posture. Then she comes to me and 'kisses' my hand.

Like Rona says, you must mean it with the reproach - they know if it is half hearted and it will soon lose the effect.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Rona

I agree, with one reservation. It works like you've described it, provided the dog learns new things gradually and internalizes them - i.e. obeys because he chooses to follow pack pinciples and finds such behaviour rewarding, (a pup gets treats, when adult - is usually praised + sometimes gets treats).

Any training shorcuts, like prong collars, physical penalities, electric fences, etc. IMO do not work for vlcaks. I mean even if they do - when the owner is not looking the dog does what he wants. It works exactly like with kids - aggressive behaviour is the best lesson of aggressive behaviour!

Exactly! I think we talked about this in a recent topic about Cesar Millan's methods: if you modify your dog's behavior with physical correction and inhibition, without changing his state of mind, once your control weavers the dog goes back to his bad behavior (or more often to an even "worst" behavior).

I think this goes for every dog, but for extremely intelligent and sensitive breeds like the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog it is even more true and evident.

As you said, they need to "choose". They have to be "convinced" of what you are asking them to do, and they have to be comfortable in doing so, otherwise they won't be reliable and consistent.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Rona

GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%.

Haha CSV owners (at least this one ), & owners of other breeds where I train say that GSDs are like robots or remote - controlled cars. The last thing that my CSV is, is dumb, she learns much quicker than any of the GSDs who I train with (& is much better behaved - normally ), however because she is smart, she sometimes says "I already learned how to do this, why do I have to do it again & again & again & again?" The trick with CSVs I think (& I guess with most dogs) is to stop them from getting bored when training, a little & often is more often better than continuous repetition.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Czertice

I have been warned that if you already have a dog, the wolfdog puppy might bond more with the dog than with you, or be too much dependent on the other dog.

My housemate has 2 bitches & when I brought my puppy home (aged about 7 weeks), she originally slept downstairs with the other girls. I was at training a week or two later & the trainer asked me to call her, which I did but I got no response, he asked where she was sleeping & I told him & he said exactly the same, that she was bonding to one of my housemate's dogs. His suggestion was to take her to sleep in my room until she was at least 4 months old & then slowly move her out as I wished. Immediately that I did that she started to respond much better to me, she still has 2 great friends to play with but she knows who her "daddy" is.

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

May I ask, considering you had Shiva the cat at the time you brought your puppy home, how you think things might have gone had you had your own 8 month old female collie dog or similar at the home when you introduced Raksha to your lives.

It is a hard thing to hypothesize but do you think this may have helped Raksha bond with other females & been a managable relationship in itself.

I am attracted to this combination because I feel that a well loved & secure collie is one of the most humble animals on earth. That it may prove to be a nice foil & friend for the CSV. Not only that I want a CSV so much but couldn't wait 13 years or more for another collie!

Again I can only give advice from my point of view (1st CSV, female aged 9 months) & from what I've read, but my girl had no problems with my housemate's dogs whatsoever & about 6 weeks ago I adopted a little stray mongrel & at first my CSV was a little jealous but after 2 weeks they were like best friends. I have read & believe it to be true (again at least in my experience so far) that CSVs will get on with most animals that are in your household (including livestock), so I don't see that having a Collie should present you with any serious problems, I would say that because of the strong pack instinct I think it's not a bad idea to consider another dog as a companion, problems are more likely (or should I say possible) with strange or unknown animals & people.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

I first lived for three years with my collie & her entire pack on the moors before we left together. It was interesting that only my collie bonded with me truly. Despite me offering her brother the same care & exercise it was like he & the 6 or 7 others realised they could not interfere with this bond. How does this work with your pack, is your bond closest with Shadow, Scrap, or equal with both dogs? & has the bond with your first two remained unaffected by the attention you give the others?

The bond we have with Shadow is a special one - she is a CsV after all - but our bond with the other dogs is still strong. There is always a little jealousy if one or another is getting affection, but there is enough of that to go around . Shadow sees it as her place to reprimand the others if we have told them off (in particular Newman who tends to go a bit 'deaf' on our walks, he never used to come when called...) - her reprimand is short and swift and never aggressive. They have their own order within the pack and, as long as we observe this order, they are all very happy and contented . It will be interesting to see how things alter once the puppies get older and start to try to find their place.

[Rush]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Don't think about it as 'bad' to train, think of it as an adventure

whenever you speak to anyone from any breed fancy, they will probably always tell you that all the dogs are different and individuals, but i think with CsV you can expect this to be especially true..

but to answer your question, "Has somebody had an experience when they had a nice car that the CSV did not destroy when young & left in the car for an hour?"

No.

My czw never did any damage in car so far. I can easly go shopping, go for pizza...He sleeps mostly in car.. But when he was in the car for more hours(driving+shopping ca 2-3h i think-don't remember) he did attack a bag with threats for him i bought in one of shops and ate some of them - he reached it over seats. He was 1 year old 3days ago anyway..

Enjoy

[Gia]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

Has anybody owned a CSV from puppy & not had their sofa partially consumed.

Yes.

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

Has somebody had an experience when they had a nice car that the CSV did not destroy when young & left in the car for an hour?

Yes.

But my female is not a typical vlcak in behavior You can ask Rona, because she knows a lot and personally my female, K-Lee. My English is too bad to explain what I mean

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Gia

Y
But my female is not a typical vlcak in behavior You can ask Rona, because she know a lot and know personally my female, K-Lee.

Haha, yes, I do know K-lee She is very human-oriented, wants to please the owners almost like a GSD and above all - loves food! She's a dream dog for training!

[Rush]

If i already wrote before, let me ask you guys a question.. What efficient methods do you use to stop czw from showing agressivness towards other dogs? As i noticed it doesn't do it only to males but doesn't really matter. He will just normally accept some dogs, and will make agressive body language towards other and start jumping to get to them. Food or such things in that cases dont help much, i am using psychical methods, which i know you will say it is not good for wolfdog and may connect it to other dogs(I do hit him with my fingers in his neck when he starts to snarl/go mad..) Not so much that he would feel pain or anything, just to change his "state of mind", it usually works good, but as soon as this "agression" is too powerful, even that doesn't work.. Also i don't think he would want to attack a dog, he never did any harm to anyone. And as breeder told me, he would usually do that when other dog barks or snarls at him, and in most cases this is true, but sometimes he starts. Also in many cases i do stop it pretty easly but not always as i said when his will for that is too powerful.

I would love some tips and you opinions to see what else i can try. I was reading about it and was trying many things. He also was socialized since i got him, he was playing with many dogs and he still does with those i can let him..

P.S. In other aspects he is really great, pretty obidient, he never runs away on it's own when off leash, excapt some prey drive, but he comes back sooner then half a minute usually. Also he is great towards people, excapt kids which he is afraid off and may show agressivness when approched to czw, becouse i did not have a chance to socialize him with kids, don't have any, and you can't say a friend or neighbour to borrow you a kid to train a wolfdog :-)

Thanks!

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Rush

If i already wrote before, let me ask you guys a question.. What efficient methods do you use to stop czw from showing agressivness towards other dogs? As i noticed it doesn't do it only to males but doesn't really matter. He will just normally accept some dogs, and will make agressive body language towards other and start jumping to get to them. Food or such things in that cases dont help much, i am using psychical methods, which i know you will say it is not good for wolfdog and may connect it to other dogs(I do hit him with my fingers in his neck when he starts to snarl/go mad..) Not so much that he would feel pain or anything, just to change his "state of mind", it usually works good, but as soon as this "agression" is too powerful, even that doesn't work.. Also i don't think he would want to attack a dog, he never did any harm to anyone. And as breeder told me, he would usually do that when other dog barks or snarls at him, and in most cases this is true, but sometimes he starts. Also in many cases i do stop it pretty easly but not always as i said when his will for that is too powerful.

I would love some tips and you opinions to see what else i can try. I was reading about it and was trying many things. He also was socialized since i got him, he was playing with many dogs and he still does with those i can let him..

P.S. In other aspects he is really great, pretty obidient, he never runs away on it's own when off leash, excapt some prey drive, but he comes back sooner then half a minute usually. Also he is great towards people, excapt kids which he is afraid off and may show agressivness when approched to czw, becouse i did not have a chance to socialize him with kids, don't have any, and you can't say a friend or neighbour to borrow you a kid to train a wolfdog :-)

Thanks!

how old is your dog?

does this happen on lead or off lead?

my boy went through this in his teenage,he would act all 'noisy and bouncy' trying to get the other dog to 'go away' he was going through a period of unease and needed his confidence boosting,lots more nice meetings with dogs offlead(so natural bodylanguage could be displayed) helped and he gained his
confidence back(that and time) thats not to say if a big dog on leash reacts to him on leash he wont shout back

i find physical corrections are counter productive(and you risk your dog redirecting to you),he needs to see other dogs are good things and not something to feel tense about... imo

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Rush

If i already wrote before, let me ask you guys a question.. What efficient methods do you use to stop czw from showing agressivness towards other dogs? As i noticed it doesn't do it only to males but doesn't really matter. He will just normally accept some dogs, and will make agressive body language towards other and start jumping to get to them. ....

I would love some tips and you opinions to see what else i can try. I was reading about it and was trying many things. He also was socialized since i got him, he was playing with many dogs and he still does with those i can let him..

Hi,

I think that depending how old your dog is this is normal CsV behavior - the selectivity towards who he will and won't be friendly to is completely normal, especially when it comes to new or stranger dogs.

To have a CsV who behaves otherwise and is welcoming to any and all dogs is rather uncommon, I think.

Upon maturity it's normal for dogs of many breeds, including CsV, to be selective.. For that reason it's also normal to see the majority of CsV of adult age to be in muzzles at off-lead gatherings of stranger dogs..

It's not something necessarily that you can 'change' - you cannot make your CsV into a nice social Beagle. You can continue to safely socialize him with those you know he is friendly to, introduce new dogs cautiously, and always be prepared to manage the situation knowing it's generally in their nature to be this way.