Tamaskan Dogs..

[Gypsy Wolf]

Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

[Joswolf]

Sorry but Whiteang is Valco but is no wolf. This is a picture and everyone can see that its no wolf.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...1.jpg?download
Jos

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Sorry but Whiteang is Valco but is no wolf. This is a picture and everyone can see that its no wolf.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...1.jpg?download
Jos

Sorry, my mistype - Whitefang is not a wolf, he is a F1 wolfdog out of an Alaskan Tundra/Interior wolf sire and Sibe mother.

An Alaskan Tundra wolf looks like this:

http://longhairedhippy.livejournal.com/387530.html

(go half way down the page).

And this:
flickr.com/photos/10755025@N06/3294104949/

[Joswolf]

yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible

First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone.
Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous?
And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like.
I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect.
Jos

[yukidomari]

Yes, it would be the breeder at Polarspeed who bred Valko. Maybe we should DNA test Valko to the perspective sire?

And secondly I have never said 'wolves are dangerous', simply that lying about their pedigree is. It is dangerous for a variety of reasons including legal reasons and health knowledge. If the pedigrees are not forthcoming about the types of dogs used, then it is harder to isolate potential health problems commonly known to all breeds. If it is indeed true, for example, that GSDs were used as a foundation to Tamaskans, then breeders should be wary about the potential of Degenerative Myelopathy, for one.

Additionally, if a dog is not generations removed from wolf ancestry, it is illegal or requires a permit to own in many places and many countries. That is what is DANGEROUS. For both the dog and the owner, who can face the animal being confiscated, put down, fines, or otherwise. If Valko is a F1 wolfdog and Jodie at Blustag is his daughter, that would require a permit to own her.

You said, "At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect."

I have never said that nobody was happy with their Tamaskan dogs or that they were somehow trouble prone?

[Joswolf]

And i never said that you have said .... i made a statement about the people i spoken to. A F1 or F2 doesnot belong to normal dogowners. But i did not now of such case. And if Valco is from a wolf that is, so i asume, just an rumor. And when it is a wolfdog is used that after F3 til F5 (depends on what state) it is asumed to be a dog. Actually i do not realy care and would like a bit more wolf. But the Tamaskan should look like a wolf and i like a dog being natury build like a wolf and when it behaves like a familydog who cares. And DS have far more genetic mistakes then the few you mension.
Now days genetic experts claim every dog has 300 till 400 genetic mistakes and by close breeding like inbreeding you wil get sic dogs finaly. So mixing is only better then pure breeddogs. But for some mistkes like DM you can test the breeding dogs. So if the breedirs are smart...
Jos

[GalomyOak]

In the USA (where we certainly have Tamaskans), a wolfdog/hybrid is considered anything <F5. These are the guidelines from the American Humane Society, who heavily influence our animal laws. Many states take it a step further - if the owner represents the dog as a hybrid to an official (vet, animal control, police officer, etc.) , it can be confiscated, or even worse, if it bites someone, it can be euthanized to have it's head tested for rabies. There is one case I can recall in my state where a 100% dog (didn't look anything like a wolf even!) was put down because the owner bragged to his vet that he had a wolfdog...he later said it was only a lie to impress friends, but it didn't save the poor dog.

Further, the behaviors one can expect from a wolfdog, or methods to use to train it or house it are often different or modified from what we use in regular dogs - not to be passed to an inexperienced owner looking only for a simple companion. I think it is important as an owner to know what is there in a dog...whether it be husky, wolf, CSV or otherwise - until a consistent level of recognized homogenity conformed to a standard can be reached.

[Joswolf]

So a wolfdog CWD or SWD is a dog >F5. A wolf is not used and if a F2 or 3 was used it is not wise and should not come to inexperienced owner but very experienced owner. We agree.
And I believed in USA it was where the hybrides ar being bred.
Jos

[GalomyOak]

Yep, we have plenty of hybrids here. Some are bred legally - in some localities (very few) there is no regulation on breeding them. In others it is okay to own them with a permit, which usually carries very strong rules. Many hybrid breeders try to stay "under the radar" - using their wolfdog's lineage as a selling point to potential owners, but telling vets and officials they own a malamute or husky mix to avoid legal problems. In any case, the enforcement of animal laws in the US is very relaxed compared to the standards I have seen in Europe. So in most cases, breeders who wish to remain under the radar can, and continue their breeding with very little oversight of authorities - and sell to whoever.

CSVs are an anomaly here in the US- legal, but certainly a risk to the CSV's safety if their owner represents them as being a wolfdog or some kind of hybrid, because most of the general public - even officials - has no clue about them because they are so rare...it's very important for owners to know the legal ins and outs of the breed, to closely abide by all laws, keep careful records of their dogs, and act responsibly. With recent wolf blood - even past F5, Tamaskan owners have to think about these same things, maybe more so since no major registry recognizes them, and they have no official papers as proof - which they would not if there were no recent wolf heritage. If they are unaware, and they meet an official who "has heard" about the breed...it could cause real danger for the dog.

[hanninadina]

You wanna see a real Alaskan Tundra wolf? Look here, this picture was made in the Alaska Tundra http://alaskaone.com/wildlife/images/wolf.jpg

These wolves from lobopark are arctics!

Luna´s mom is completely right, most people look for pet dogs. And in history most people had dogs for pet dogs. There are only a few working dogs. And sure the dogs who have more working abilites end in shelters, because they are hard to handle. A good breeder would never give a working dog, it does not matter, if gsd, mali or Briard to a family who only wants a pet. But there are lots of breeder who do not care.

I am wondering about these rumors that Polar Speed has wolfblood inside. Gossip. And this so called F 1 Alaska Tundra Siberian Mix.... Hm, people do not make things interesting which are not worth to talk about it.

In his newest studies world wide leading genetic professor from University of California Bob Wayne found out that even in the ancient dog breeds who are older than 500 years like Basenji, Saluki, Malamute, Siberian Husky, Chow Chow are wolf genes in them. So are these wolfdogs too? It is a lack of knowledge which leads the people to head cinema.

Lunas Mom is right, if there are people who like "pet" wolfy looking dogs that if csw breeders are not able to bring them down, let other people investigate and develop new breeds. For comparison I started in dog world with Briard - Berger de Brie, french Herding dog -. In france these dogs were more aggressiv and working line. In germany the breeders were succesful in changing Briards to real pet dogs for families. And nobody is complaining, less problems more happy people. The society is changing and wants only nice dogs. So why hanging in standards and not looking for nice kind dogs. In italy the dogs are changing like my comparison with german Briards more to pet dogs because they are selection faster because of more puppies. That is the normal way of breeding.

By the way all of you who are complaining about "hybrids" please have a look on facebook in my videos or my website about my american wolfdogs. They are quite friendly and handsome with strangers, strange dogs and I like them very much as pet dogs and for doing sports as jogging, biking and swimming. And I have of course two csw as well and everyday again the comparison. It is as ever in life have a look for the good ones, means the good breeders, it does not matter which breed.

And of course you find in a shelter good dogs. My two male dogs were shelter dogs. And I took them because I could see the good things in them which are quite more than the bad things. With the puppy you will never know what genes will make out of him. Ok, I am an experienced dog owner so that I can decide which dog is "good" or not. But now a days I will always prefer a rescued dog.
Good night
Christian

[hanninadina]

Wanna know how a real Alaskan Tundra wolf looks? Here an complete article published in "International Wolf" the magazin from biggest wolf club in the world the International Wolf Center http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwma...tundratime.pdf . They linked it for the net.

At the end there fotos. Please make the comparison, they look different the "arctics called Tundra". Have fun! The learning of a human being never stops.

All the best
Christian

[Tazer]

I'd have an easier time believing the 'no wolf tamaskan' site or what ever its called, if it wasn't for the fact that the new aatu tamaskan breeders who continuously bang on about all of this, didn't appear to be such hypocrits.

They say high content wolfdogs and csvs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan, and by the way they write, it would appear that that is an issue for them so, one has to ask if indeed their claim is true, and they indeed have an issue with it, then why on Earth are they contacting breeders of csvs to see if they can use a male for stud, there was also mention of them looking at using the dogs bred by noble paws, I think someone posted a link to their site earlier on here. Are those dogs not wolfdogs, or at least, they're claimed to be, so again, if wolfdog in the tamaskan is an issue, then why are they using wolfdog or planning to, in their new aatu tamaskan?

They say, that the original tamaskan is plagued with health issues, and that they're going to fix the problems in their new breed. However, one of their founder studs is a monorchid, one founder bitch is from lines known to produce epalepsy, the first litter of aatu tamaskan born in the USA was from a stud without full health test results, and thats if he is indeed the sire, there is some speculation as to that.

Just as a point of interest, their new breed is called the aatu tamaskan yes, tamaskan, you know the breed they dedicate sites to slagging off, well the original breed is so bad that they'd like to keep the name association...If it was me, and the breed was as bad as they claimed with regards to health etc, then I'd want to distance myself as much as possible from that wouldn't you. Just to add to it, they seem fond of dropping the aatu part of their new breeds name, and refer to them as tamaskans, of course, that isn't going to cause confusion is it?.

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is.

P.s.
Where is the solid proof of the dna evidence that is being claimed. I was also under the impression that there wasn't a test for wolf content, as both domestic dog and grey wolf dna is so similar, that it is near impossible to tell by a dna test if a dog does contain recent wolf content or not. Apologies if that is wrong, it has been a while since I looked into the subject, so science may have progressed since then.



Taz

[hanninadina]

You are right, there is no test, how much wolfconten is inside. I am in contact with Bob Wayne who is worldst best genetic in wolves.

Sure it is true there is some wolfblood from csw inside Tamaskan. To be honest, for me it is not a breed yet. There are people mixing everything together with all they are maybe getting. I had an question too, if they could use my male csw. And of course they did even ask noblepawz. But Sky would never allow mating one of her dogs such Mixdogs. This shows me only that these people do know nothing about wolfdogs. And when you say that they are using even "ill" dogs so no one should buy one. I wrote already that there are enough lines of wolfish looking csw which behave more family like and less working like. I would really much prefer.

Christian

[Tazer]

Agree, I'd much rather have a csv too, and hopefuly I will do one day.

I would also agree that they're more of a type than a breed, like the rest of the wolf lookalikes. However, when compaired to those other lookalikes they do appear to produce more consistancey in their breeding.

Here in the uk we've got all the different types of lookalikes. They all started off with the same foundation stock, but at various times people broke away from the founder clubs, set up their own, mixed different breeds into their lines, changed the name, and then again people from those new groups broke off taking their dogs and starting the process all over again. So at present we've got the:

Northern inuit dog. Consisting of Siberian huskie, Alaskan malamute possibly, gsd, some random imported mixes from the USA of unknown parentage, some claim wolf or high content wolfdog, there was even a thought that they could have been mastiff added in as well. But basicly, people don't really know, and when you consider that the type is only around 20 years old, and one of the founder breeders is still very much living, you'd think there wouldn't be such confusion. Thats before we even get to the health problems, level of inbreeding, pedigrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on, lack of breeding ethics, etc etc. Basicly, its all one great big mess.

British inuit dog/british wolfdog. Northern inuit with the addition of csv or swh.

Timbre dog. As far as I'm aware, thats basicly anything that looks remotely wolf like in appearance.

Utonagan. Northern inuit with the addition of collie, not sure if anything else was added.

British utonagan. New break away group from the utonagan. Utonagan with the addition of the original founder breeds, siberian huskie, alaskan malamute, gsd, northern inuit, though they say they're not going to add collie again. They're also considering other breeds but don't know what they are, maybe bsd.

Tamaskan. Don't suppose I need to explain that one.

Aatu tamaskan. Refer to earlier post.


Taz

[Gypsy Wolf]

Well, again, it'll be buyers that dictate the market. People may breed the dogs, but if there are no buyers, they will not continue...
I would think a Saarloos would fit the bill if someone wanted a wolfy dog with a soft temperament and a predictable "look"... plus, then they could actually DO stuff with their dog as it is a "breed" and not just something someone cooked up.
I would bet that part of the reason there is an interest in a wolfy looking dog with no wolfy "ness" is the shy behavior. Most people want a friendly "wolf" - according to what I have heard, many Saarloos are shy... perhaps part of why they are not as sought after? And CsVs do not make the best pets for the average person...

[Joswolf]

I believe no wolfdogs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan but lateron couse of health and inbreeding risk looked for new blood. I also believe now they wouldn't want an CWD any more couse they are bred for using agression. They could be interested in Saarloos. But i listened to breeder who likes sleddogs and others who want an pet or family-dog. But they need to look like wolf. Funny is the wolf look alike claims now wolf and roomers say its part wolf and AWD claim 70-98% are mostly not really like a wolf but behave much like a dog. You just can't do it wright.
Jos

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

I also believe now they wouldn't want an CWD any more couse they are bred for using agression.
Jos

Could you explain, please?

[Joswolf]

Explain what? Why i believe this. Thats what i heard from several Tamaskan owners. Or do you mean explain why i believe a CWD is more agressive then a Saarloos.
Jos

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

.... explain why i believe a CWD is more agressive then a Saarloos.

Explain what you understand by "CWD are bred for using agression".
CSVs aren't lambs, but the word "agression" has lots of meanings. I was just wondering what you had in mind. I know breeds far more agressive than CSVs

[Joswolf]

That's the problem with the word "agression". I did'nt mean agressive dog couse almost all dogs are bred for using agression, defence and quarding. All terriers are bred for using agression. CWD was bred for bording defence and had to be willing to attack. Thouh that may sound bad it is what it is.
A wolf or mix would therefor go back. A CWD compared to a Saarloos is also a differnce. A CWD would faster attack then a Saarloos. I did not use the word dangerous couse a Jack Russel is more agressive but easyer to shake of when hanging in your leg. I do not want to use the word dangerous couse evey horse can hurt you as well.
I must say i love dogs and dogs love us aswell. So i don't want to give dogs a bad name couse they are men's best friends. Mostly they are our help and companions. So don't get me wrong.
Jos