Is there at least one working line in the breed of csw?

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Upstream Ariminnnum has very nice character but everybody knows that Aron Maly Bysterec, father of Upstream, gives such specific stable characters to his offsprings. I'm sure Mirka, owner of Mery Kysucka hvezda (daughter of Aron) or Saschia, owner of Frei Maly Bysterec (also daughter of Aron) will agree with me. It doesn't have to be contribution of Hasso. And there are much more offsprings of Aron with good, stable character and everybody who saw him working on sleeve during the camp in Slovakia will admit that Upstream is working like her father. I know that some people will never admit that there are Slovakian CzWs with nice character but it is so.

As the owner of Mery Kysucka hviezda, I might slightly disagree with you Przemek. I consider Mery to be very hard to train, because even that she understands many commands and learns rather quick, it is very difficult to get her attention and she hardly concentrates on what she does. She is restless and gets easily excited by minor things into such amount, that she´s not controlling herself. Mery is fourth wolfdog, who ever lived with me and I honestly find her the most difficult and demanding.
If I ever found any drive in her, then it would be drive for food.

If Monika´s Upstream has the same character (which I cannot say, cause I never really saw the dog), then I can only congratulate her on being excellent trainer to manage such a dog well.

But it is also possible, as Saschia says, that Mery with different owner would behave better and be able to pass exams. I still intend to pass some exams with her, but I do not think it would ever be something like IPO.

One of reasons also is, that Mery´s hips are in way bad shape. Which is a trait, that I believe Aron Maly Bysterec gives very succesfully - dysplasia. (just see Aron´s offsprings etc.)

[Huan]

if they receive the same socialization and training so it's obvious that's not possible.

It is exactly what I mean. Most of the CzWs has potential and it's only a matter of the owner what he will do with it. But everybody is saying about working line of Hasso but noone mentioned "working lines" of Milo Ruskov dvor, Grey wolf z Molu Es, Aron Maly Bysterec, Ajbix Mrazive ticho, Argos Mrazive ticho or Ali Reolup which gave mostly much better characters then Hasso. So it is the reason why it makes me laugh when I hear about working line of Hasso.

Originally Posted by massimo

But we can make an "opposite" calculation: how many dogs have ipo or equivalent today? does any of them have the same percentage of DIRECT SONS like Hasso in all the history of wolfdogs?

Yes. Fast example:
Asta z Tondova - 23 offsprings from which 5 has at least ZVV1 - it makes 5/23 = 21,74%

However it's still not the point. In the times when Asta was having puppies there were much bigger interest in training with wolfdogs. Many people did something with their dogs. They didn't buy their wolfdogs as family pets.

What I cannot deny is that usually a wolfdog with higher amount of passed exams can have more offsprings with exams. BUT.... in 99% of cases it is nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecy: people looking for a puppy for work are looking on the training results of the parents and are buying the puppy because they want to train and pass exams. So they usually start to train the dog faster than people who bought their puppy not for work. This is the reason why a dog with IPO can have more offsprings with passed exams. But from here there is a far way to genetical inheritage - the owners of such puppies work harder and not that the puppies are better in character (of course we are talking in general).

Originally Posted by massimo

cannot make this calculation as I do not have direct access to your database.
3/34=8.8%, and 34 is an interesting population (if it was 1 ipo out of 2 puppies number would NOT be significant).

And I mentioned 6 wolfdogs that were shy (and I mean really scared dogs not just less couriagous) - 6/34 = 17,64%. I bet that this percentage is also higher than in many other lines. So we have theoretically a chance of 8% that the offspring of Hasso will have IPO and 17% that it will shy and will pass no exams

Originally Posted by massimo

Big male studs (ex.Milo/Cutt/Clover/Charon/etc.) have same or similar coincidences with more than one direct son IPO?

Don't we have equality of rights? What about females? Why do you say that the character is inherited only from the father side?


You can find dogs with IPO in the countries where people do protection work. 99% of all dogs with IPO and similar are Czech CzWs because you can train protection and obedience in almost every village there. In other countries people do mostly obedience. Hasso was bred in Czech Republic, most of his offsprings stayed in Czech hands, also Kelt, Argos, Ajbix, Hero are all dogs owned by Czech people. They have very good conditions there to train protection work. There are no problems with doing protection with wolfdog like in Holland or France where protection work with CzW is forbidden. It doesn't mean that there are no wolfdogs with good character that could be "working dogs" there. Look at the percentage of dogs with exams in the countries. If we count it then Italy will have one of the lowest number of working dogs compared to the population (single cases vs 1500 wolfdogs). Do you want to say that dogs in Italy are useless for work because the percentage is low? I think it mostly because people aren't interested in training.

So because there are very few people working with their dogs and people working professionaly are even less we can't say anything about working lines based on exams. It just says that the owners do something with their dog.

Massimo, don't take me wrong. I don't want to hurt any breeders or dogs. In the fact I should be one of the first people which should shout: "yes, there are working lines. I have working dogs, I have working lines, I breed working puppies" because we would profit the most from such story. I and Margo made with our dogs over 30 exams, took part several times part in competitions (not only for CzWs) and the percentage of pups from our kennel which have some exams is higher than by many other breeders. Maybe that is the reason why I see how big influence on working dogs has an "working owner". In most cases it's a credit for the owner not for the extraordinary working genetics.

[Huan]

Originally Posted by MirkaWolf

As the owner of Mery Kysucka hviezda, I might slightly disagree with you Przemek. I consider Mery to be very hard to train, because even that she understands many commands and learns rather quick, it is very difficult to get her attention and she hardly concentrates on what she does.

I was talking about stable character and not about trainability of Arons pups. But as for dogs being hard to train then I think it's a normal that dogs with higher potential are usually harder to manage. Belgian Shepherds are know to be perfect and very efficient in work but they are hard to train and that is the reason why still German Shepherds are more popular - average but easier to train.

And there are no doubts that Monika has a very long experience in training with dogs (she achieved ZVV2 with her Asta a long time ago) and she can get a lot more from a wolfdog than many of CzW owners. The same is about Ira and her owner, Vaclav Zeisek who is professional trainer. Ira in other hands maybe wouldn't pass any exams (she has IPO2 now).

Originally Posted by MirkaWolf1

One of reasons also is, that Mery´s hips are in way bad shape. Which is a trait, that I believe Aron Maly Bysterec gives very succesfully - dysplasia. (just see Aron´s offsprings etc.)

I think this belongs to another topic - I don't want to make advertisement for Aron being the best stud dog and if we want to talk about inheritage of displasia we should start another topic. I'm just talking about character and I saw many offsprings of Aron - almost all of them with very nice character. What I can't say about Hasso offsprings.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Przemek

But as for dogs being hard to train then I think it's a normal that dogs with higher potential are usually harder to manage.

Fantastic Przemek! I have to remember this, as an excellent excuse, when I have to once again explain to somebody, why my dog behaves like idiot. I wonder if they will believe me, though.

Anyways, regarding dysplasia, it is definatelly off-topic here, I know. I mentioned only as we were discussing here, what traits Aron passes to his offsprings.

[Huan]

Originally Posted by MirkaWolf1

Fantastic Przemek! I have to remember this, as an excellent excuse, when I have to once again explain to somebody, why my dog behaves like idiot. Smile I wonder if they will believe me, though.

The working wolfdogs I know behave sometimes like idiots - anyway it's hard to call them nice family dogs. These dogs are very often hard dogs, self confident, very dominant and behave like on drugs (very active)

Originally Posted by MirkaWolf1

Anyways, regarding dysplasia, it is definatelly off-topic here, I know

It's not completely off-topic because health and especially the hips have big influence on working abilities. If the dog has HD we can forget about training with him IPO because there is a lot of running and jumping. But I wanted to focus more on character.

[hanninadina]

Nice comments and discussion. From my point of view Prezemek you see it to small. Please compare the breed csw with other working breeds. How many real working lines you will find there?
And I think you cannot say only because dogs have IPO 3 (or IPO 2) that they are working lines. Saschia had a good example. If everything is compareable between dog X and Y from my point of view sure it could be a working line. I don´t make it on exams. The point is, a puppy buyer who gets an working dog will have easier problems with a lets called nervous dog because he is everytime looking at you and asking: ok, what we gonna do next? A family or only show dog will be more quiet. And that is the difference to make from my opinion.

And for a puppy buyer it is more easy to find out that he will get a working dog or a family/show dog when he sees that the working dog has passed exams.

Przemek, you cannot make it on Hasso only. You have to look at the females too. I think you know it better than me, that there are breeders who look for mating dogs where they know that they have working potential. Looking at your breed I see that you and Margo are looking more for "important" let us say old csw bloodlines and not for working lines. Now a days one can say maybe you founded a new working line, because of your first three litters there are at least 3 puppies with exams if I remember right.

And of course a dog who is doing obidience and agility well is too a working dog. I know lots of dogs who are not able to do agility for example even so they have experienced dog owners and they tried the same like me to do agility. They have no fun to do it. These means the working dog does working because he wants to do it and not because his handler the human being wants to do it. And this is the big difference! And therefore you don´t need to pass exams! As Saschia wrote, Frey would be able to work.

In germany there is no more a shot by passing the BH in part A - obidience - and B - social part -.

Sure I accept all your opinions. It is/was an interesting discussion. Thank you all for this.

christian

[saschia]

Christian I think that you are saying the same thing as Przemek but in different words. But:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

From my point of view Prezemek you see it to small. Please compare the breed csw with other working breeds. How many real working lines you will find there?

But our breed is very small compared to those typical working breeds as the German Shepherds or Malinois. If they have few real working lines, how can we have at least one, especially if we want to avoid inbreeding? I am not really competent in this field but it seems to me that at least GS have very different working and showing lines, but it is a very popular breed with loads of breeders and loads of people who consider them for work, and with loads of even official organizations which select dogs for working abilities very firmly (like police, custom, etc.).

The CsW were selected very firmly by army during their creation and I think this is the reason it was able to remain as a working breed after "changing hands" to civilists, when the exams were not required for breeding of an animal.

[hanninadina]

Ok so I brign it down, there is no working line during these days, maybe in future. But if someone will look for a working dog, he will find bloodlines, where the dogs prooved over 4 generations that they are able to work and/bcause breeders look for mating to dogs which are both able to work. Can we say so?

And Prezemek, Hasso is one example, sure there are differnt ohter dogs.

Saschia I even have a briard male stud dog. He is a great working dog, but I did only BH. But we do bikejöring world- and german Championship. He is doing very well sleeve and of course Agility. His mother comes out of Tschje and is international Champion and has IPO 1,2. His fahter is only showdog, but worldchampion in beauty in 2001. But he got the working genes from his mother. He is crazy for working. And in the breed of the briards there are showlines and working lines. I know lots of Briards who would show you their finger if you wanted to do agility.

Mirka, that is for sure, I see it like Przemek, working dogs are crazy dogs, are difficult to manage, as I wrote, they are always looking ok, what we are going to do next!

christian

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mirka, that is for sure, I see it like Przemek, working dogs are crazy dogs, are difficult to manage, as I wrote, they are always looking ok, what we are going to do next!
christian

Ok, I have to explain to my dog then, that she is suppose to look what we are going to do next. Because she does not give a damn!
The only thing she looks for, is food.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Yes. Fast example:
Asta z Tondova - 23 offsprings from which 5 has at least ZVV1 - it makes 5/23 = 21,74%

Originally Posted by Przemek

And I mentioned 6 wolfdogs that were shy (and I mean really scared dogs not just less couriagous) - 6/34 = 17,64%. I bet that this percentage is also higher than in many other lines.
So we have theoretically a chance of 8% that the offspring of Hasso will have IPO and 17% that it will shy and will pass no exams

Ok let's stop playing with numbers, i know I started in the first place
Asta is an excellent example of what I mean, but I doubt you can find many many others...
The example of shyness i don't think fits because from all sons of Hasso you mention only 6 of the sons made with Cira Volani rodu, and i honestly wouldn't compare shyness (present in a EXTREEMLY HIGH percentage of CSW...) with an Ipo1..

Originally Posted by Przemek

What I cannot deny is that usually a wolfdog with higher amount

Well that's the only thing I am trying to say.
If I wanted to work with a dog, I would surely take a pup from (or from a very near offspring of) one of these dogs:
Asta, Ajbix, Kelt, Argos, Hero, Hasso, Upstream...etc.
I wouldn't personally choose a son of others if that was my intention. Maybe your're right, maybe it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, I want a working dog, i take a hypothetic working line, i work hard and i contribute to make a working line so.
it's a matter of choice.
I know what I would choose..and I surely know WHAT PARENTS i would NEVER CHOOSE if wanted to work with a csw....(I could make many examples ...)

Originally Posted by Przemek

Don't we have equality of rights? What about females? Why do you say that the character is inherited only from the father side?

of course but obviously it's easier for a male to make more puppies in his lifespan than a female (in the list i mentioned before there are 3 females...)

Of course at the end Saschia's example is and must be considered, and is repeating the same as said both by Przemek and myself before: NO exams doesn't necessarily mean No good for working, just that exams is a proof that "no exams" cannot give, and also that a big contribution to so called working lines is given by the owners...

[saschia]

You know people, you make me feel that good working dogs are just addicts with good character background (not cowards, not aggressors).

And of course my stupid mind made following pictures for me (I hope you'll find them funny, if not scientificaly correct):

1) Non-working dog: "You want me to sit? Well *** you, I got this bone here needs hiding."

2) Workable dog (my previous - Kei): "You want me to sit? Well what's in it for me? A yummy? OK, I'll sit! Now give it to me!"

3) Material for working dog (my Frei): "You want me to sit? OK, I sit, will there be something good? Oh, you are pleased with me, I'm glad... Can we play now?"

4) Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

[hanninadina]

good character? Oh I think there are working dogs without good character. And someone mentionted it, working dogs could be dominant, aggressiv, powerful be. From my point of view you will find the same amount of good and bad character dogs in "normal" dogs and in working dogs. It depends on the gene and on the way they are raised up from puppy.

Christian

[massimo]

Originally Posted by saschia

"You want me to sit? Well *** you, I got this bone here needs hiding."

"Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Saschia you make me die!!!

[Rona]

I personally think that only if
1. a really huge number of CSVs (preferably all of them ) were trained with the same methods, by the same people, who would devote more or less the same amount of time to their training
2. later the effects were measured in the same way, by the same judges in similar conditions
3. the results were objectively compared with statistical methods

we could honestly start making generalisations, comparisons and speak of working and non-working lines.

Of course the above procedure is not feasible and thus I agree with Przemek and others....

In fact theoretically every CSV should possess SOME working potential and it's up to the owner and other circumstances and coincidences if these abilites would be brought up or not.

E.g. it's like playing the instrument: nobody knows how many people from those we pass in the street might become top musicians IF the parents bothered to send them to music schools! On the other hand many of those who play in orchestras send their kids to music schools and the profession is passed on to younger generations, although none of them will ever become a Mozart.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

2) Workable dog (my previous - Kei): "You want me to sit? Well what's in it for me? A yummy? OK, I'll sit! Now give it to me!"

This my Tina at home

Originally Posted by saschia

4) Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

This is Tina in a quarry acting a geologist companion (before she retired ) She never took any formal exams but for years teams of reserchers relied on her situation judgements during the field work, especially when their safety was concerned.

Would you call her a working dog or not?

[saschia]

Rona - I personally call working dog every dog which at request from its owner does thing it would not do on its own accord and is able to do them for some period of time (half-hour to day to week, depend on type of work etc.)

So, if Tina just ran around and people could judge the situation based on her normal behavior, then she was not working. But if she responded to a command of sort, then she was working.

In my opinion wolfdog running along a bike at stable speed is working, while poodle fetching a ball for an hour might be just playing. Wolfdog running with it master without a leash stoppping for time and then running closer again is not working, while wolfdog running with its master at its master's speed is working. But this is again something for different discussion topic.

[z Peronówki]

WOW - great topic...

Originally Posted by massimo

The example of shyness i don't think fits because from all sons of Hasso you mention only 6 of the sons made with Cira Volani rodu, and i honestly wouldn't compare shyness (present in a EXTREEMLY HIGH percentage of CSW...) with an Ipo1..

Sorry, but I do not see that the problem was only with the dogs Hasso x Cira - I know even more dogs from Hasso's line than Przemek. Przemek mentioned one dog from the litter Hasso x Doubravka. Not shy but there was NO working interest by this dog... And the owners started to train their dog already when they took it home - they visited training field FREQUENTLY (because they had working HASSO puppy of course). Without any result.... At the age of 2 years the dog was not even able to pass the basic obedience exam... so the owners gave up...
From the litter Hasso x Ambra one dog is REALLY working dog (Ira), one is shy and one has serious reaction on shooting.
About Hasso x Cira Przemek already wrote everything...
The only mating - Hasso x Ajbix - gave good characters but not thanks to Hasso but thanks to Ajbix. Ajbix has VERY specific character and everyone who knows her will confirm Kelt is 100% mother in the look and character...

Anyway we have funny situation in Poland which shows the whole problem - people which are looking for a puppy with NICE and "working" character check first if there is NO Hasso in the pedigree... Funny but I'm not joking because if you will visit some dog shows here one day and you will see some of the dogs lying scared on the ground in the ring, hiding behind their owners you will almost for sure see offspring of our polish "Hasso working line"....


Anyway - Hasso had 6 litters. One (with Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic) "disappeared". Puppies from 4 matings (with 3 females) have pretty high number of VERY shy dogs. Only one litter have good characters... Sorry but speaking in this case about exceptional working blood and working line is..... senseless.

Originally Posted by massimo

If I wanted to work with a dog, I would surely take a pup from (or from a very near offspring of) one of these dogs:
Asta, Ajbix, Kelt, Argos, Hero, Hasso, Upstream...etc.
I wouldn't personally choose a son of others if that was my intention. Maybe your're right, maybe it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, I want a working dog, i take a hypothetic working line, i work hard and i contribute to make a working line so.
it's a matter of choice.

Before I bought my first CzW I always owned German Shepherd Dogs.... It is still pretty easy to find very good working dogs of this breed. I "switched" to CzW because of their HEALTH, CHARACTER and LOOK. 3 important things to me...And because of this:

- I would not buy a puppy of 4 dogs listed by you because their puppies have more similar characteristics with shepherds than wolves. And if I would like a good working dog which also LOOKS like shepherd dog I would not buy a CzW but stay by German Shepherd Dogs.... Simply said: a dog which DO NOT look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog according the breed standard (it means which is not WOLFISH) is not for me a TYPICAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdog EVEN if such dogs is nice working dog.

- I would not buy a puppy of 1 more dog listed by you because of visibile hips problems by the offsprings. I do not own GSD anymore because I don't want to have a dog which is "invalid". If a dogs have great character but problems with the hips his great character is for nothing because such dog will be NEVER good material for working dog. I know 2 CzWs with super character which already passed some important exams but the owners had to stop to work with them because the dogs got problems to jump and to move...

If I would look for a puppy I will take into consideration ONLY 2 dogs from your list and few more from my own list which "guarantee" not only good CHARACTER but also TYPICAL look for this breed and famous great HEALTH... For sure you will agree with me that it make no sense to buy a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog which LOOKS like GSD, which has CHARACTER like GSD and which have bad HEALTH like GSD....

Originally Posted by hanninadina

good character? Oh I think there are working dogs without good character. And someone mentionted it, working dogs could be dominant, aggressiv, powerful be. From my point of view you will find the same amount of good and bad character dogs in "normal" dogs and in working dogs. It depends on the gene and on the way they are raised up from puppy.

Yes, you are right... "Working dog" is great thing but only if it is owned by a person which has enough TIME, WILL and EXPERIENCE to handle such dog... I know how many serious problems had some of the owners of dogs listed here... And some of them still have problems even if the dogs passed many exams...

But there is also another thing which was not mentioned here (maybe a little bit by Saschia). What is a WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG?
Is working CzW dog which has great herding instinct and is working with the herd?
Is working CzW dog which has so lazy and dominant character which make him great guard dog (watch dog)?
Is working CzW dog which behaves like GSD and has character like GSD?
Is working CzW dog which love to pull things and works as sled dog?

NO. NONE of these dogs are good working Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs because they make something else as Hartl's idea for this breed....

Look on the standard: typical CzW must be "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions". It means FAST, QUICK, RESISTANT, ACTIVE. Many of the dogs which were listed as "nice working dogs" are HEAVY and LAZY. They have stable characters but are they typical as Wolfdogs? Can a dog which has problems to pass 40km run because he is too heavy to run so long distances be called WORKING CzW even if it has IPO1?

Another thing: Hartl was always saying that CzW were made for tracking work. It was THEIR domain where CzW were unbeatable. So I would say the working line of CzW should be made of dogs which are FAST and ACTIVE and on the same time which have great "nose". So for me there is 1 really WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG (not just "working dog") according to the exams which the dog passed: Hero od Úhoště that passed IPO-FH2 and took part (with nice results) in national tracking dogs championship....

Originally Posted by saschia

3) Material for working dog (my Frei): "You want me to sit? OK, I sit, will there be something good? Oh, you are pleased with me, I'm glad... Can we play now?"

4) Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

A CzW can be 3) and 4) on the same time... 3 when the dog makes something what it does not like to do. And 4 when it makes his favourite exercises...

Originally Posted by Rona

I personally think that only if
1. a really huge number of CSVs (preferably all of them ) were trained with the same methods, by the same people, who would devote more or less the same amount of time to their training
2. later the effects were measured in the same way, by the same judges in similar conditions
3. the results were objectively compared with statistical methods

we could honestly start making generalisations, comparisons and speak of working and non-working lines.

I think it is the most important thing which was written here - it is exactly what also Przemek wrote... We can not compare dogs which owners train with them and dogs which owners do nothing because in the first case we will get so called "working line" and in second "non-working line" EVEN if the dogs from the second group will have much better character than from the first group... There are too many factors which have HUGE influence on the character of the dog and his results by training...

[Hanka]

Like Saschie wrote:
Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something

It is my female Ko-ko. But I know, she is a copy of Hasso. She is the same nervous type. When she must be on one place and sit or stay, she cries very much uííí uííí uííí. Like Hasso.
Whe she do obedience, she looks into my eyes and she tells me: what else I can do for you? I do it very quickly, tell me some direct, quickly.
I don´t know, what means Kamil about his male Kelt, but my Kony is 100% Hasso.

[wolfin]

Hi, i have one question for Hanka. You living in Czech republik, in Your land is very more exams, but You not have exams with dog, and if i will buy puppie from work (etc sport) i see to first all litter from parents with exams, and sory but You kennel in this case not be in me list.

If i living in Czech and see Your dogs real, maybe i say-this is very good dogs and hes like me and i will have pupps from this dogs, but i living in other country and not have posible this make.

I think: say "i have very good working linie or i have working dog" others exam is ...is stupid, but this is only worts and he not have proofs.

this is me think about this situacion.

regards

p.s. i not have bad idea or minds about Your dogs

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is my female Ko-ko. But I know, she is a copy of Hasso. She is the same nervous type. When she must be on one place and sit or stay, she cries very much uííí uííí uííí. Like Hasso.
Whe she do obedience, she looks into my eyes and she tells me: what else I can do for you? I do it very quickly, tell me some direct, quickly.
I don´t know, what means Kamil about his male Kelt, but my Kony is 100% Hasso.

....just coincidence.... pure coincidence.... ko-ko's good part comes from Ajbix!!
massimo