Wolf Dog Education

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation. I'd be saying the same with Saarloos and Lupo Italianos.

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact.

There are quirks (and I don't mean that as a bad thing) in their personality that are not from the German shepherd side so where did they come from? The only time we've seen these quirks, and they were in a much less scale, was in a Czech line German shepherd whose ancestors were part of the vlcak program but stayed on the GSD side (despite the fact that kennels deny this).

When people start to deny where things come from that's where problems start. I don't deny that herding (as in a dog herding sheep) is modified hunting. I also don't deny killer whale and dolphin shows are hunting demonstrations - just modified to look entertaining to us ignorant humans. When you look at it hat way you respect it and when you lose that respect problems happen.

Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own. We're far enough out from the initial project so we can consider them their own breed. This doesn't mean you can deny where the breed came from.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

I have video of Strongheart and will have digital video of the original Rin Tin Tin by the end of the weekend. These weren't far from the original GSD (maybe 10-15 years for Strongheart and 15-20 years for Rin Tin Tin). I'm sure people will notice quirks from them.

Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten. I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog.

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall). He is skittish and doesn't like strangers. I've been working on this a lot, giving neighbors treats and telling them NOT to make eye contact - just have their hand out with treats and it's been (slowly) coming along. He is much better than he used to be and he is beautiful (I think that is his saving grace) and very playful and loves the szhutzhund game (if we get his off-lead obedience down we might be able to put a schutzhund title on him). He's an odd fellow, out on the field he's confident and acts like he's the best one out there. He has it in him we're just trying to get it out more often.

Edit: Here is some Strongheart video I put on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rEpXcAG0E

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

OT, but for a long time I did research on GSDs and wolfblood with a friend into GSDs who is very interested in this myth, and have not found anything to substantially support it at all. I have looked at the older versions of vS's book and found nothing, though I have yet to find access to the stud books. What sources are you drawing your information from, besides the one oft quoted yet unsubstantiated article by Dresselhus (which is also posted on your kennel site), who is a breeder of wolf and dog mixes?

Some people have said that Cita z Ps appears in both CsV (as F2) and GSD pedigrees, but I've yet to see proof it's the same bitch as well.

Personally, as long as I can't substantiate it, I would not repeat it because it seems to me to be a sort of 'justification' of the breed which may or may not be real, which I don't think is needed in either case. As long as it's as unprovable as a rumor, I'd let rumors alone.

[GalomyOak]

Jing,

A trip down memory lane, post #13 (maybe it's hearsay, but I trust Margo! ):

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=334

[yukidomari]

Thanks for the link; According to there, it seems like the sources are the stud books and also the book:

"100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schäferhund". Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung.
Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.
April 1999"

Will have to dig around. Thanks!

PS. Trip down memory lane indeed - funny to see posts by Tina @ New Zion kennels/ Shiloh Shepherds.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I never said that reserve indicated in the standard means shyness. A typical wolfdog is not a friend of all, but does not escape in panic at any unkown object or sound.

Originally Posted by draggar

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation.

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Originally Posted by draggar

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact. ...... Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own.

Nobody denies wolf and GSD heritage in vlcaks, but still, as you say yourself they are dogs. I think Saschia explained it clearly enough.

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

Luna's had the best background any owner could dream of - good ancestry, caring, conscious breeder, good socialisation/training from the start. No wonder she's developing so well. I keep my fingners crossed for her just as for the whole first 'historical' US litter

Originally Posted by draggar

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall).

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona:

"If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!),...."

and

"When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. "

This is exactly right !

And that´s the main thing and the big difference !!

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Isn't that one of the points of this thread considering the title "wolfdog education"? Part of that would include responsible breeding and that includes not mixing vlcaks with hybrids.

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

Pollux has been many lessons.

Originally Posted by Rush

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

On the pedigree database I can trace Luna back to the project. While there are not many birth dates in the beginning of the project a second generation dog has a birth date in 1960 (May 21, to be exact). Since the start of the project was highly secretive so it may not be exact but it appears that Luna is 9 generations from that vlcak's generation (the one born in 1960).

Also, you don't always need recent wolf genetics to make a dog wolfy (yes, I know, I sound like I'm contradicting myself). We bred a little of Finnish Spitz and still work closely with the local breeder (who is a good friend of my wife's) and they are *extremely* wolfy in temperament even though they are thought to be one of the oldest breeds of dogs (don't forget, all dogs today are descendants of either modern day wolves, a now extinct variety of wolf, or some common ancestor (like humans and apes).

This can also from selective breeding (which is what helps keep a vlcak's lines a vlcak).

[Rush]

Aha, 9. generation is yours?.. That is closer. My pup is supposed to be the 6th generation.
I would like to hear others to tell about it too, thanks

[Rush]

Hm but i didn't understand what you ment with 9 generation from "vlcak" ?
Isnt vlčak as in czech ment to mean "wolfdog"? :-)
If you maybe didn't understand i'm asking how many generations since there were wolfs in breeding until there were no wolfs anymore.. Probably i complicated it now even more

[draggar]

In the USA we're calling them "Czechoslovakian Vlcaks". I think in the UK they call them "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs".

Here in the USA when you say "wolfdog" people automatically assume it's a hybrid (odd though that "wolfhound" is OK?). Hybrids have a very bad reputation due to a ton of misinformation and lack of education. (But I'm sure some of it is earned from poor breeders and owners, too).

Also, Luna is 9 generations from that vlcak, there is one generation past him but I'm not sure if they're GSDs, Carpathians, or vlcaks. Luna is a 9th generation progeny of the project.

Think of this - 9 generations over 50 years, that's about 5 1/2 years in between generations on average. Considering she is a first generation American we can assume these 9 generations aren't "Americanized" breedings (breed many for looks). So I think it is safe to assume that either the breeders in Luna's lineage took their time to research and bred to dogs that produced well. I highly doubt any dogs were first bred at that age so the breeders were able to see what worked and what didn't and by the time Luna's ancestors were born they had it fined tuned pretty well.