Cesar about Wolf-Dog Hybrids

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Oh, I see, now! Yeah, semantics are all screwed up with dog training, just because of the associations connected to words over the years. Even if some ideas seem to overlap, it's become standard to drop things like "alpha" and "dominant" for other terms, like being firm with rules and not being a pushover, haha.

Just as an aside, I think the best learning experience I've had in terms of training was the wolf and dog behavior seminar my husband and I attended at Wolf Park in Indiana. They talked about how they train the wolves (only by reward and shaping behavior through treats, absolutely zero correction) and how you can use those methods on dogs, but never any other dog training (i.e. corrections, dominance, etc.) on wolves because they haven't been bred over the years to respond to humans the way dogs do. Just puts it into an interesting perspective.

I would love to go to that seminar!!! Marcy had mentioned going, I have checked out their site and some videos.. I even bought that book by Shaun Ellis and Monty Sloan, "Spirit of the Wolf"..

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Tassle

The dog only wanted to open him up because he threw it into a situation it was not equip to deal with.

He deliberately placed it in close proximity to a dog it cannot cope with seeing (the owners told him this) waited for it to get wound up, I am not sure if he deliberately ignored the signals the dog was giving off or he was not expecting the dog to react to his 'interference' the way it did.

the dog gives several signals before it reacts - he waits for it to be right on the edge and then he pushes it over by 'nudging'. What you are seeing is redirected aggression. The dog is SO hyped due to what he has done it.

This is a great clip on how to ignore dogs body language and what can happen when you do.

I feel so sorry for the dog.

That's exactly what I thought when I first saw this clip - he deliberately winds the poor dog up so that he can exact his punishment (sorry, 'correction') I didn't have a lot of time for his 'quick fix' methods before, but now am actually starting to detest the man for what he does

[AMERICANI]

I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..

I do not think the dog needed what he did - it was very sensationalist and made 'good' tv, which I guess is why he did it. But this was not rehabbing, it was making the dog more afraid of him, than of the presence of the other dog.

[AMERICANI]

I understand

[Jennin Lauma]

I have noticed that most Cesar fans are people who have little or no up-to-date scientific information / knowledge about the social life & communication of wolves & dogs, and what has been learned about the effectiveness of different training ideologies & methods.

Everyone who has been following his/her time in canine science aswell as the studies about the learning process in different mammals, know exactly why Cesar's methods are out dated and harmfull, and today completely lack scientific base, -or in better words: is today scientifically proven to be incorrect.

For further reading I recomment people to Google "Dominance theory", and read the articles that come up.

Also here are some that I had bookmarked:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...imal-behaviour

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose...ancemyths.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articl...s/Yin_MA09.pdf

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

The wolf bilogist Dr Dave Mech talks about why the "alpha" term he himself is somewhat responsible for, is incorrect and out dated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

[AMERICANI]

LOL... I guess I was trying to get someone to actually mention a specific alternative, rather than just tell me, "what he did was wrong". It is obvious that there are newer and more acceptable ways to get this specific dog to be helped... BTW, Thanks for the links...

[yukidomari]

If you hire a real, trained, licensed behaviorist, they wouldn't offer you a 'quick fix' and would have no reason to.

That is, unless someone prefers hiring someone so they can end up on TV.

PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example. at least that's how i would approach it, based on what I see in this video, but of course nobody would give you unqualified advice without actually seeing and interacting with the dog in life.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example.

that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning.

The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head.

The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method.

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by Fede86

that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning.

The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head.

The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method.

Thank You!! So very much.. That is what I was looking for. This is a possible example, and I know it is just speculation, but is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!), I could sit and ignore any tension between the two until one gives and looks away and then so does the other (the situation is calm - for the moment - decreasing distance according to time and progress..) Right then, I could provide a reward to the state of mind (calm and peaceful).. and this could very well continue for months! I believe I would need assistance from someone with the same knowledge to help with the other female simultaneously, right? Both want to be boss... I think I'm tracking - please correct me if that isn't so. I fully understand about the dipshits who would rather be on TV.., and with that video, there isn't enough background to give to anyone to make a proper decision.. I do however, remember the episode where this big dog was a "Red Zone" case and would attack everything and everyone he wanted (handler/owner included)... This might be an acceptable method if the dog would be put down the following day.. Thank for your input! I have mild issues that I have been slowly working on, and I want to do everything I can to make life enjoyable for my dogs as well as achieving the behaviors I like! ie: I can now walk up and feed my dogs without them going crazy and jumping all over me! (Before, I wasn't home for a while, and my mom got knocked down and injured by one that was just happy to see her)..

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Thank You!! So very much.. That is what I was looking for. This is a possible example, and I know it is just speculation, but is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!)

In my opinion, you can proceed with the same approach but you also must unfortunately realize there may be an limit it especially when it comes down to breeds known for tendencies to SSA et al; and that this may be a case of long-term management. it may be that the best you can accomplish is that the two dogs when supervised leave each other alone under direction, but must never be left alone together unattended. There is training and then there are genetics and you cannot make a pack of CsVs behave like a pack of beagle hounds.

I taught my CsV a solid 'leave it' when it comes to my little dogs and when he is getting to be too aggravating to them (stepping on them, punching them, etc). Course you start with 'leave it' at a distance on something not very valuable, and work your way up.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!), I could sit and ignore any tension between the two until one gives and looks away and then so does the other (the situation is calm - for the moment - decreasing distance according to time and progress..) Right then, I could provide a reward to the state of mind (calm and peaceful).. and this could very well continue for months! I believe I would need assistance from someone with the same knowledge to help with the other female simultaneously, right?

That's the basic concept. I'm no dog trainer but I would probably start from a distance that cause no tension at all, reducing it at a pace that never allows it to reach levels that cause the dogs to express the unwanted behavior (when eliminating a bad behavior you want to reduce its frequency to a minimum, so you avoid to put the dog in a position where that behavior surfaces). I guess the specifics of the method may vary depending on the dog and on the situation.

[Jennin Lauma]

Good posts Fede86 & yukidomari
You two took the words out of my mouth (I completely agree with you, and would have given the exact same answers).

When dealing with wolfdogs, unsocial behaviour (towards other canines and especially of same sex) is quite typical, and absolutely natural behaviour for a wolf.
Wolves are often concidered being pack animals, and therefore incorrectly interpret to be social animals. But the truth is that wolves live in family units, and usually the pack consists of a mother and a father and their offspring from the last couple springs untill they mature and leave the pack to find their own territory & mate.
Of course there will always be exceptions to rules and so it is in this case too; there are some reported cases of more complex wolf pack structures than described above, but those are just that; exceptions and usually occur only under special circumstances.

[AMERICANI]

All of mine (with aggression problems toward each other) are Csvs.. I do have one mutt male. They all grew up together as pups.. So you you are saying there is still a chance of them never getting along together? I do not have any 3 Csvs that can be together right now, and I am very eager to try something.. I'm just waiting for something that makes sense lol..

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

All of mine (with aggression problems toward each other) are Csvs.. I do have one mutt male. They all grew up together as pups.. So you you are saying there is still a chance of them never getting along together? I do not have any 3 Csvs that can be together right now, and I am very eager to try something.. I'm just waiting for something that makes sense lol..

I think you should always have the ultimate goal of having all your dogs living together peacefully, but the key is to understand it may not be possible, so you don't put unnecessary pressure on yourself and your dogs. Effective (i.e. Long lasting) training is a slow process and while at times results can be quick, training against instinct takes time. For example, it's in my husky's nature to chase anything small, furry, and quick, but we taught him the cat is off limits. The only way I felt comfortable bringing a cat into the house, though, is after 3 years of training to establish a "no chasing" command.

The problem with using the "quick fix" of dominance training is that, like it's been said, you're only treating the symptom, not the cause. What ends up happening is you "break" the dog. Sure, she'll behave, but her personality will be changed. She will lose the confidence to make decisions for fear of correction, and that's no way for a dog to live. You want to slowly desensitize to the stimulus in a way that keeps them from escalating in the first place, so they learn to be more calm on their own, because it's rewarding.

Honestly, you can read, read, read about methods that can help, but if you're confused at all about how to proceed, the best thing would be to find a positive personal trainer who is accustomed to sensitive, willful breeds. If you go to Victoria Stillwell's website, positively.com, she's started a group of trainers all specializing in positive reinforcement training. It might be a good place to start looking.

[saschia]

Just my two cents - maybe going all passive (waiting for them to calm) may be fastened a bit by active desensitization - like redirecting attention and otherwise showing the dog what is the right thing to do. But, of course, still slowly, still starting from the safe distance, and I think what complicates it is that you actually need another person to direct the other dog, as you don't want one going crazy while the other is desensitized.

But positive reinforcement is the best in this case for sure, the dog shouldn't be punished because it is put in the proximity of something it does not like. I only punish my dog if she actively goes and attacks another female even though she was told not to, and that punishment is physically taking her out of the conflict, and then giving her commands she has to obey and are completely boring and she has to do them properly and look at me, not the other dog, until she does it in the way that deserves praising and then I praise her and she can go run again. If she ignores the other bitch, or redirects her attention to me when called, I praise her. And I must say it helps, although slowly (I prefer to walk in places where there are no other females, so I don't train it often enough).

[hanninadina]

Americani, how old are your csv and which sex are they? Neutered?

To be save, means keeping only a male and female of csv. Sometimes mother and daugther works. But all other combination do not work when they did mature. I am talking about the regular average case. having two males will work if there is no female. Even a neutered female and intact female will not work. That is the normal case. CSV are to dominant and to aggressiv.

So you do not have to try to train them, but you have to seperate them and built two packs and a save fence between them, a double fence.

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de

[AMERICANI]

Thanks both of you.. Saschia, you are saying exactly what I described earlier

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Americani, how old are your csv and which sex are they? Neutered?

To be save, means keeping only a male and female of csv. Sometimes mother and daugther works. But all other combination do not work when they did mature. I am talking about the regular average case. having two males will work if there is no female. Even a neutered female and intact female will not work. That is the normal case. CSV are to dominant and to aggressiv.

So you do not have to try to train them, but you have to seperate them and built two packs and a save fence between them, a double fence.

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de

All of mine are in tact.. I have 3 females 1 - 4yrs, 2 - almost 3.. 2 males, 1 - 3 1/2 and 1 - 2 yrs

I don't want to lose hope.... All of these pics I see on Wolfdog of 5 or 6 all playing together... is it a temperament issue?
Thank you.. I have them separated in different pens.. I just want to enjoy the lake and hiking and do things together. I hate bringing 2 and leaving the rest at home

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

All of these pics I see on Wolfdog of 5 or 6 all playing together... is it a temperament issue?

It may or may not be; and it matters if the dogs pictured are actually all related and grew up together with their mother and fathers, aunts and uncles, etc. It also matters the ages of the dogs.