MIX/REG/NON-FCI, Unknown - What is it?

Nebulosa · 12-10-2010, 19:49

New message from Admin explaining the new marks which appeared in several dogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

We were asked by the CzW breeders and owners to make order in the database.

There are more and more Wolfdogs which are not purebreed dogs but mixes of any kind of dogs but which get the FCI pedigrees (due to holes in the regulations in some countries) and claim to be "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs" due to the fact that it is possible in some countries to register any dog as purebreed CzW even if it is a visible mix and the dog has 0% of CzW blood.
Some breeders produce mixes "with papers" and sell them as purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Of course they "forget" to inform the puppy buyers that the dogs are not real CzWs.
Many breeders and many owners complained about it: because the pedigrees from some countries do not guarantee that the dog is a PUREBREED Czechoslovakian Wolfdog we decided to make some changes in the database to see the truth.

Other problem - some people apply to the database dogs which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with pedigrees. Before it was not possible to check if a dog listed in the database is a REAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or if it is a MIX or a dog without a pedigree. Now it changed....

When you look into the database you will find 4 kinds of dogs:

- "normal" wolfdogs
listed with the name and kennel name
To this group belong all dogs which were OFFICIALLY used for making this breed. These dogs are REAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.

- "MIXes"
listed with the word (!!!_MIX_!!!)
It means the dog is not a purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdog - in its pedigree you can see dogs which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
Here you can find any kind of Wolfdogs mixed with mutts or other breeds: with Saarloos, Siberian Husky, White Swiss Shepherd, Inuit Dogs, German Shepherds, Malamutes aso...

- dogs put on the "REGister"
listed with the word (!!!_REG_!!!)
Here you can find dogs which have "blank" pedigrees - which were not born as purebreed Wolfdogs but were registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs later (it is possible in some countries). To this group belong dogs which can be MIXES but also such which can be PUREBREED Wolfdogs. But because they origin is unknown they are treated the same way as "MIXes"...
There is a way to remove the "REG" - it will be possible by dogs which will have the DNA tests done saying that they are offsprings of male XXX and female YYY (and the dogs XXX and YYY are registered purebreed CzWs).

- "NON-FCI" dogs
listed with the word (!!!_NON-FCI_!!!)
Here you can find dogs which do not have the valid FCI pedigrees - they are registered by other kennel clubs which are not recognized by FCI.

- "UNKNOWN" dogs
listed with the word (!!!_UNKNOWN_!!!)
If someone will send us information about the dog but do not include information about the origin - such dog will be listed as UNKNOWN. Because it is unknown if it is a purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, mix, non-FCI or maybe even a dog of any other breed (there were already cases where people tried to register schnauzers and huskies).
If we get more information about "UNKNOWN" dogs we will move it to the proper category.

ANYWAY - the dogs from the categories MIX, REG and NON-FCI are no suitable for breeding. Litters of such dogs will be not advertised on Wolfdog.org and their breeders will be not listed on the breeders list. With the time the lines should disappear from the breed.

The reason is the main FCI rule saing:
The International Breeding Regulations of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) are binding on all member countries and contract partners.
· These FCI breeding regulations apply directly to all FCI member countries as well as the contract partners. This means that breeding may only be carried out with pedigree dogs which have a sound temperament, are healthy in functional and hereditary terms and are registered with a studbook or register (appendix) recognised by the FCI. In addition, they have to fulfil the requirements specified by the relevant FCI member or contract partners.(...)

Mixes of any kind, dogs without pedigrees and dog with not recognized pedigrees brake this rule and because of it such dogs are not recognized as purebreed by the origin clubs and any responsible breeder

yukidomari · 12-10-2010, 19:57

Thanks for clarifying! I was wondering for a while.

Gypsy Wolf · 18-10-2010, 00:58

So I have a question... Luna was bred and born here in the United States. Her parents were imported and, I believe, were registered with Kennel Clubs recognized by FCI before they were registered with AKC and UKC here in the United States. Luna is AKC and UKC, but it seems neither is recognized by FCI.
If I wanted to go overseas and show her in Europe, how would I be able to do that? And how would she be listed in the database? Would her litter have to be registered overseas or could I single register her as her parents are imports?

yukidomari · 18-10-2010, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

So I have a question... Luna was bred and born here in the United States. Her parents were imported and, I believe, were registered with Kennel Clubs recognized by FCI before they were registered with AKC and UKC here in the United States. Luna is AKC and UKC, but it seems neither is recognized by FCI.
If I wanted to go overseas and show her in Europe, how would I be able to do that? And how would she be listed in the database? Would her litter have to be registered overseas or could I single register her as her parents are imports?

I've been doing research on this as well, and as far as I know, you might have to cross-register your dog with either the Mexican Kennel Club or Puerto Rico KC (the closest ones without residency requirements). Both the FCM and FCPR are FCI members so if you have registration with them you will also be able to show your dog in any of the other 80+ FCI participant countries including most of Europe. BUT..but you'll have to double-check, because even though FSS is under AKC, it's not considered a 'real' registration and it may not be acceptable. I've been reading some conflicting accounts. .. here is an interesting letter from FCI: http://fci.be/uploaded_files/Letter%...C_16072008.pdf

The #3, "It is up to the FCI to decide about the registration of dogs born in the USA belonging to breeds not recognized by the AKC".

Nothing about procedures, though.

Then I found this, albeit about another FSS breed, the Cane Corso, but here it says,
"In some cases AKC FSS papers are accepted as well."

http://www.canecorsoinfo.org/akc.htm

André · 18-10-2010, 21:40

I see some dogs have two "-" before and after the breeder name. What does this mean?

GalomyOak · 19-10-2010, 04:13

@ Luna's mom...

Until our dogs are accepted into Misc. for AKC, FCI won't recognize them in FSS. FSS is AKC's stubborn way of honoring their reciprocal agreement with the FCI. It's why I keep begging people to register their dogs with AKC, even if they don't plan to breed.

However, I think it is possible to register FCI with Puerto Rico, since they are a US territory. I was in touch with their kennel club awhile back, and they said it was no problem. Pete from Blusteel (who owns 2 wolfdogs) was heavily involved with the development of the Cane Corso in the US - she has registered several of her dogs in this way (before they went Misc.). Try getting in touch with her, she can probably tell you more.

Marcy

Nebulosa · 19-10-2010, 21:41

For what I know, CBKC accepts AKC pedigree from FCI recognized breeds.

admin · 23-09-2011, 15:42

Because there are more and more problems with the "strange" things happening in some kennels and due to the huge interests of Wolfdog owners and breeders to make the problems better visible we will rebuild the database.

The "sure" Mixes will be listed as it was done before.

But we will add new option - "under investigation". It will be added to ALL puppies from a litter where even one totally untypical dog was born. For example - there are red puppies born in the litters of Sibir nd Rambo Crying Wolf. Because of it we will mark as "under investigation" all dogs from "R" and "S" litters of Crying wolf and all their offsprings.
I hope it will force the breeders to allow the official DNA test by their dogs. If the case will be solved the "under investigation" will be either removed or changed to "MIX" (depending on the results).

Mikael · 23-09-2011, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

Because there are more and more problems with the "strange" things happening in some kennels and due to the huge interests of Wolfdog owners and breeders to make the problems better visible we will rebuild the database.

The "sure" Mixes will be listed as it was done before.

But we will add new option - "under investigation". It will be added to ALL puppies from a litter where even one totally untypical dog was born. For example - there are red puppies born in the litters of Sibir nd Rambo Crying Wolf. Because of it we will mark as "under investigation" all dogs from "R" and "S" litters of Crying wolf and all their offsprings.
I hope it will force the breeders to allow the official DNA test by their dogs. If the case will be solved the "under investigation" will be either removed or changed to "MIX" (depending on the results).

Super

Good Work / Mikael

admin · 04-10-2011, 12:10

Here I will post the list of suspicious dogs with justification. When I ill get official DNA prooves showing that the dos are pure I will publish the results and remove the dogs from this list.

If you want to speak about dogs listed here please use the topics here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21164

admin · 04-10-2011, 12:29

Crying Wolf Thalia (Fallko Kollárov dvor x Mona z Krotkovského dvora CS)
Crying Wolf Sibir (Crying Wolf Galiba x Crying wolf Flash)

Reason: red (bb) puppies:

admin · 04-10-2011, 12:54

Offsprings of Blood's Lykan de Louve Blanche -Running Wolf- due to the fact that the "original" dog was "replaced" in France with a mix.

admin · 04-10-2011, 13:01

Due to the fact that the listed dogs are not pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs:

Demoniak Diamond de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Yvanka de New Flame)
D'Eyden de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Celeste de la Louve Blanche)
F'eira de la Louve Blanche (Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf x)
Erha de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Au Ténébre de la Louve Blanche)

and because there are more problematic dogs sired by Volos and Yarl we will mark all dogs sired by both males. We know that it is possible that only some litters were cheated and maybe that only few dogs of the mentioned litters are mixes (because there is the possiblity that one litter was sired by two or more males, that the females are replaced and/or the some of the puppies were replaced) but due to the cheating done by the breeder "suspicious" are all of them.

admin · 26-01-2013, 21:06

Information next to the dog names

/ Neutral
(_!_) - means only that the dog has in the pedigree ancestor(s) from the kennels which are dealing with counterfeiting of pedigrees, or mixing CzW with other dog breed. Because such breeders are completely unreliable, untrustworthy are also pedigrees of puppies produced by them. Probably most of these dogs is pure wolfdogs, but doubts remain.

/ Group "at risk"
(_?_) - this means dogs which have evident mixes among the direct descendants, siblings, or in their lines. Often these lines are characterized by a large number of anomalies, but because of the lack of verification by the responsible kennel clubs till now it has not been established what is the source. It is known that among these dogs are mixes, but there is no information which of these dogs are "safe"; for sure pure. The case is complicated by the fact that there are probably some litters of different parents.
Sending DNA tests showing that dogs "at source" are actually pure wolfdogs will immediately erase (_?_)

/ Group of "not for breeding dogs" - mixes of huskies, American hybrids, Saarloos, GSD, and "multibreed" dogs of unknown origin. Group including also dogs without documented origin - with so-called "empty" pedigrees, which by definition of Slovakian Club (the owner of this breed) are not recognized as Czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

(!_MIX_!) - Information next to the litter from Finish Wolfsirius kennel where falsification of the pedigrees took place (registered parents are not the real parents of the litter). It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs.
This group includes also so called "French Wolfdogs" produced by the la Louve Blanche kennes. With (!_MIX_!) are marked dogs where there is no doubt that these dogs are NOT pure.

(!_Saarloos_MIX_!) - Information next to the dogs from de Louba tar kennel, where ancestors come from the Saarloos x Czechoslovakian wolfdog crossings and similar crosses from the Hungarian Crying Wolf kennel. It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs.

(!_Mutara_!) - Information next to the dogs from Italian Passo del Lupo and Forest Incantata kennels that have registered so called Mutaras. Multibreed mutts with 0% content of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs.

(!_REG_!) - dogs with "empty" pedigrees - registered in so called registries

(?_NON-FCI_?) - dogs without pedigrees and dogs of unknown origin, which are likely to be mutts

(!_NON-FCI_!) - dogs without pedigrees and dogs of unknown origin
Important: In this group, there are also pure, FCI registered dogs with missing data on their ancestors. Please send me the details of parents of such a dog (or better update data in the database) and the words (! _NON-FCI_!) will be erased.

admin · 11-02-2015, 12:26

* PRODUCTION OF MIXES *

Because puppies have always two parents I will apply an amendment to the database and as "breeder of mixes" will be marked also the owners of stud dogs, which are used to mixes production. All stud dogs which covered even one female marked as !_MIX_! will be also removed from the stud dog list and marked as "not for breeding".

19-10-2010, 04:13	#6
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	@ Luna's mom... Until our dogs are accepted into Misc. for AKC, FCI won't recognize them in FSS. FSS is AKC's stubborn way of honoring their reciprocal agreement with the FCI. It's why I keep begging people to register their dogs with AKC, even if they don't plan to breed. However, I think it is possible to register FCI with Puerto Rico, since they are a US territory. I was in touch with their kennel club awhile back, and they said it was no problem. Pete from Blusteel (who owns 2 wolfdogs) was heavily involved with the development of the Cane Corso in the US - she has registered several of her dogs in this way (before they went Misc.). Try getting in touch with her, she can probably tell you more. Marcy __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

19-10-2010, 21:41	#7
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	For what I know, CBKC accepts AKC pedigree from FCI recognized breeds. __________________

23-09-2011, 15:42	#8
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Mixes and suspicious dogs Because there are more and more problems with the "strange" things happening in some kennels and due to the huge interests of Wolfdog owners and breeders to make the problems better visible we will rebuild the database. The "sure" Mixes will be listed as it was done before. But we will add new option - "under investigation". It will be added to ALL puppies from a litter where even one totally untypical dog was born. For example - there are red puppies born in the litters of Sibir nd Rambo Crying Wolf. Because of it we will mark as "under investigation" all dogs from "R" and "S" litters of Crying wolf and all their offsprings. I hope it will force the breeders to allow the official DNA test by their dogs. If the case will be solved the "under investigation" will be either removed or changed to "MIX" (depending on the results).

04-10-2011, 12:10	#10
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Suspicious dogs - listing Here I will post the list of suspicious dogs with justification. When I ill get official DNA prooves showing that the dos are pure I will publish the results and remove the dogs from this list. If you want to speak about dogs listed here please use the topics here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21164

26-01-2013, 21:06	#14
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Information next to the dog names - shortcuts MIX_REG_MUTARA Information next to the dog names / Neutral (_!_) - means only that the dog has in the pedigree ancestor(s) from the kennels which are dealing with counterfeiting of pedigrees, or mixing CzW with other dog breed. Because such breeders are completely unreliable, untrustworthy are also pedigrees of puppies produced by them. Probably most of these dogs is pure wolfdogs, but doubts remain. / Group "at risk" (_?_) - this means dogs which have evident mixes among the direct descendants, siblings, or in their lines. Often these lines are characterized by a large number of anomalies, but because of the lack of verification by the responsible kennel clubs till now it has not been established what is the source. It is known that among these dogs are mixes, but there is no information which of these dogs are "safe"; for sure pure. The case is complicated by the fact that there are probably some litters of different parents. Sending DNA tests showing that dogs "at source" are actually pure wolfdogs will immediately erase (_?_) / Group of "not for breeding dogs" - mixes of huskies, American hybrids, Saarloos, GSD, and "multibreed" dogs of unknown origin. Group including also dogs without documented origin - with so-called "empty" pedigrees, which by definition of Slovakian Club (the owner of this breed) are not recognized as Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. (!_MIX_!) - Information next to the litter from Finish Wolfsirius kennel where falsification of the pedigrees took place (registered parents are not the real parents of the litter). It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs. This group includes also so called "French Wolfdogs" produced by the la Louve Blanche kennes. With (!_MIX_!) are marked dogs where there is no doubt that these dogs are NOT pure. (!_Saarloos_MIX_!) - Information next to the dogs from de Louba tar kennel, where ancestors come from the Saarloos x Czechoslovakian wolfdog crossings and similar crosses from the Hungarian Crying Wolf kennel. It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs. (!_Mutara_!) - Information next to the dogs from Italian Passo del Lupo and Forest Incantata kennels that have registered so called Mutaras. Multibreed mutts with 0% content of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. It apply the same for all the descendants of these dogs. (!_REG_!) - dogs with "empty" pedigrees - registered in so called registries (?_NON-FCI_?) - dogs without pedigrees and dogs of unknown origin, which are likely to be mutts (!_NON-FCI_!) - dogs without pedigrees and dogs of unknown origin Important: In this group, there are also pure, FCI registered dogs with missing data on their ancestors. Please send me the details of parents of such a dog (or better update data in the database) and the words (! _NON-FCI_!) will be erased.

12-10-2010, 19:57	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Thanks for clarifying! I was wondering for a while.

18-10-2010, 00:58	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	So I have a question... Luna was bred and born here in the United States. Her parents were imported and, I believe, were registered with Kennel Clubs recognized by FCI before they were registered with AKC and UKC here in the United States. Luna is AKC and UKC, but it seems neither is recognized by FCI. If I wanted to go overseas and show her in Europe, how would I be able to do that? And how would she be listed in the database? Would her litter have to be registered overseas or could I single register her as her parents are imports?

18-10-2010, 21:40	#5
André Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 76	I see some dogs have two "-" before and after the breeder name. What does this mean?

04-10-2011, 12:29	#11
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Crying Wolf Thalia (Fallko Kollárov dvor x Mona z Krotkovského dvora CS) Crying Wolf Sibir (Crying Wolf Galiba x Crying wolf Flash) Reason: red (bb) puppies:

04-10-2011, 12:54	#12
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Offsprings of Blood's Lykan de Louve Blanche -Running Wolf- due to the fact that the "original" dog was "replaced" in France with a mix.

04-10-2011, 13:01	#13
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	Due to the fact that the listed dogs are not pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs: Demoniak Diamond de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Yvanka de New Flame) D'Eyden de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Celeste de la Louve Blanche) F'eira de la Louve Blanche (Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf x) Erha de la Louve Blanche (Volos Crying Wolf x Au Ténébre de la Louve Blanche) and because there are more problematic dogs sired by Volos and Yarl we will mark all dogs sired by both males. We know that it is possible that only some litters were cheated and maybe that only few dogs of the mentioned litters are mixes (because there is the possiblity that one litter was sired by two or more males, that the females are replaced and/or the some of the puppies were replaced) but due to the cheating done by the breeder "suspicious" are all of them.

11-02-2015, 12:26	#15
admin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 583	PRODUCTION OF MIXES * PRODUCTION OF MIXES * Because puppies have always two parents I will apply an amendment to the database and as "breeder of mixes" will be marked also the owners of stud dogs, which are used to mixes production. All stud dogs which covered even one female marked as !_MIX_! will be also removed from the stud dog list and marked as "not for breeding".