How can I be sure I'm not buying from a puppymill/dishonest?

[RaeLee]

I too am new to buying overseas and I don't know how to go about buying a puppy without getting caught in the scam or buying from a puppymill! If I purchase one I'd like an indoor, family raised, puppy that came from titled parents that the breeder took the time to do themselves. I just don't know how to verify wether or not a breeder is legit. I'm not in any big hurry so I have time to get to know someone first but I'm still a bit concerned. Is there somewher I can look up reputable breeders?

[Mirkawolf]

I do not think there will be many people, who will reply to this publicly and honestly. I can only tell you, be smart, keep your eyes open and use your brain.

If somebody is having several litters every year, how they can have enough time to pay enough attention to all the puppies? If somebody has ten or more wolfdogs at home, how can he pay proper attention to all of them and also to the puppies? Not to mention, you can hardly have indoor ten adult wolfdogs ..

Look for breeders, that have at home reasonable number of wolfdogs and their dogs appear on different events (dog shows, trainings, meetings). That means these people pay attention to their dogs, they do something with them and it´s more likely they will raise well also the pups.

Proper socialisation of the puppy, starting at the breeder´s home, is very important. But also important are the parents of the puppy! Don´t buy puppy from parents, who were not x-rayed for hip dysplasia or with bad HDD results. You can´t imagine, how many troubles it is, to have dog with severe hip dysplasia, both for you and the dog.
Don´t buy puppy, who´s parents did not pass the bonitation, the bonitation is made to make sure, non-standard, shy and aggressive dogs won´t breed. Would you like to have shy or aggressive dog? I guess not.
Don´t buy puppy, who´s parents and their relatives are closely related, means where inbreeding appears in the pedigree. Appearance and character of the dog might be tricky, too.

There is many things you should think about, before you buy a wolfdog. Are you sure you want this kind of dog? When you never saw it, never met it? What do you know about them?

I do understand you hardly can just get airplane ticket and go see the dogs and the breeders, before you get the puppy. But certainly you should go and and pick up your puppy yourself, see where it grew up, see the mother and speak with the breeder.

There is nothing like a list of reputable breeders. There is no such a guarantee. But if you study the results of dog shows, pedigrees of the dogs, x-rays, bonitation codes and photos of the parents of each announced litter, you might find some answers..


Note: I am not having any pups at the moment. Just for those who might ever think this was something like an advertisement of my kennel.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

. I can only tell you, be smart, keep your eyes open and use your brain.

100% in agreement!
this is the most important

Don´t buy puppy, who´s parents did not pass the bonitation, the bonitation is made to make sure, non-standard, shy and aggressive dogs won´t breed. Would you like to have shy or aggressive dog? I guess not.

this is the ones that had not passed in the Bonitation, but the Bonitation still does not exist in all the countries where they exist breeders of this breed, then it is very good you for knowing the parents personally.

A breeder who loves its dogs has certain concerns before sould the puppy,
probably go to want to know what you know about the breed and the reasons that took you to choose the breed, will be open to any doubts in relation it and will go accept the puppy return in devolution case.

A good breeder never goes to hinder to see you the installations of the kennel and all dogs that live there.
Looking at certain details you can to know if the dogs remain much imprisoned time or little imprisoned time, as well as if they receive an feeding adequate.


Paula Helm Pandolfo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I normally tell people who contact us because they are interested in getting a wolfdog to take their time and get to know as many dogs as possible. For that it is the best to go to summercamps and special dog shows of this breed. There you meet most breeders and dogs and you get an impression how they should look like, how the breeders relationship with their dogs is and how their dogs behave. Titels that have been won on international dog shows very often mean absolutely nothing. We had cases on one of the biggest German dog show when the swedish judge thought that the perfectly yellow eyes of some dogs weren´t dark enough, on the one before the judge prefered shepherdlike dogs without a good mask. Because of many of those experiences I only care for the ranking on special dog shows.
If I would like to buy a puppy overseas I would wait one or two more years and spend it on visiting Europe and visiting breeders and summercamps or special breed shows. Even if a good breeder is willing to send you a dog overseas without knowing you personally he won´t give you the best of his dogs, he will give that dog to a person he knows much better and he will meet from time to time.

Regards Ina

[Koos]

Hello to you all,

At the most of the things, metioned here, I fully agree with it, but there will make a cleaning of breeders again.

At first, We have, my husband and myself, several dogs, and we take care of all the dogs, during they day, because we are at home the whole day, so saying something about a breeders with more then 10 dogs, it depends on how may time you will spend with the dogs, during the day.


When a breeder has one dog and one litter in a year and is working the whole day, especially in winter, when the days are short, (and the most of the litters will be born in this time) and the owner is tired from his work, then it can be happen that the puppy's are also not socialized, because he don't have the energy to do it.


About selling a bad puppy over see, I think, you can better send the best puppy away and keep the worst, because it is a recommandation for kennel to send a good one. Somebody who send the bad one, don't look forward. It hurts also when you send the best one away, because you think, you never see him again, but when you hear that the owners are satisfied and maybe at shows or in obidience they will do it so good, then you are satisfied also and you know then that it was good so.


When you keep the best at home and selling the puppy to a family you know and think that they will do everything with the dog, but they only keeping him at home of in the kennel, but they have told you, to do everything with him, then you are bordering yourself and you are not satisfied at all.

If the new owner is satisfied with the dog, he will recommanding it to other people and so the kennel is in the picture again.

For example, I sold over 10 years ago, a German Shepherd to a family from USA which are at that moment living in Saudi Arabia.
After a few years they went back to USA. During this years till now, we have contact. The dog died a few years ago, but they will come back, next year to take a puppy again from our kennel. That's great, because German Shepherd you can buy at every corner of the street.

What I have written above, is my opinion, and I hope you will agree with it.

Letty

[Mirkawolf]

There are some things that I disagree with Letty. But it is also just my opinion.

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

At first, We have, my husband and myself, several dogs, and we take care of all the dogs, during they day, because we are at home the whole day, so saying something about a breeders with more then 10 dogs, it depends on how may time you will spend with the dogs, during the day.

Yes, that is absolutely true. But only in case, the time with the dogs is spent actively - by training, working with them, playing with them. If the dogs are at home closed in kennels or cages, then the fact that the breeder is present at home, does not change anything.

I am also at home all the time, have only two wolfdogs and we spent every day at least 3 hours on walks (not counting the little walks) in the forest or parks plus training. On the weekends it is of course even more. And it is quite tiring. Can´t image to do this regularly with more dogs.. But certainly there are people who manage more than me. For example, I quite admire Margo in this

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

About selling a bad puppy over see, I think, you can better send the best puppy away and keep the worst, because it is a recommandation for kennel to send a good one.

I am not exactly sure, what Letty here means by a good or bad puppy. Of course, it would not be good to send via plane puppy, that has low self-confidence, because the flight and stress would not help the pup. But honestly, what is the point of selling the best puppy (by look and character) overseas? The dog will probably never breed there, will hardly appear on a dog show, in the obedience no one has an idea there, how to train a wolfdog. USA is full of wolf-hybrids with uncertain character, appearance and wolf-blood percentage, thus many people there have strange ideas about wolfdogs or fear them.
Many of the new US owners also have only vague idea, what is CSW and how to socialise it, train it and properly raise it. It can be often seen from their questions here in the forum. I myself see the idea of selling puppy overseas as a big risk and certainly would think twice about it.

To me is more logical to keep the best pups of the litter here in Europe, where they can get to dog shows, proper training clubs, bonitations and affect the genetic pool of the breed, when reproducing.

Keeping a contact with the owner of the puppy (does not matter, in which the country the puppy is) is absolute must and does have nothing to do with the quality of the pup, according my opinion. But of course, with a large number of puppies it must be difficult.

What I stated above, as I already mentioned, is only my own opinion and certainly there will be always people, who will not agree.

[Koos]

Mirka,

As you said it is a lot of work to do with the dogs, but I am playing and walking and going to the village with them also, but because we are both at home, you can go separed, also we have a maedow where they can play with different dogs in all ages.

What about a good or a bad puppy is coming from the message of Ina, she said that a breeder will not given away a good puppy overseas, because you will never see that puppy again. So I used therefore the term good or bad puppy.

You said, it is better to keep the good dogs in Europe, for getting Bonitation, shows, breeding and so on.

Do you know how many people will do this and how many dogs will be used for breeding??

The most of the people I know will have a dog for compagny and are not interesting at all in Bonitation, breeding and shows.

Is there then any difference if the puppy will stay in the USA or here in Europe??

The only thing is, it will be at the right place with the right owner and people from the USA or other far-away country can even be a very good owner for the dog the which any europian man or woman. Also in Europe are bad owners who don't give any attention at the dog and not socialisate them and don't give them food at all. And there are more terrible things to mention about keeping a dog. And this is counting for all kind of races and not oonly for the CW.

Letty

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

What about a good or a bad puppy is coming from the message of Ina, she said that a breeder will not given away a good puppy overseas, because you will never see that puppy again. So I used therefore the term good or bad puppy.

You said, it is better to keep the good dogs in Europe, for getting Bonitation, shows, breeding and so on.

Do you know how many people will do this and how many dogs will be used for breeding??

The most of the people I know will have a dog for compagny and are not interesting at all in Bonitation, breeding and shows.

Is there then any difference if the puppy will stay in the USA or here in Europe??

The only thing is, it will be at the right place with the right owner and people from the USA or other far-away country can even be a very good owner for the dog the which any europian man or woman. Also in Europe are bad owners who don't give any attention at the dog and not socialisate them and don't give them food at all. And there are more terrible things to mention about keeping a dog. And this is counting for all kind of races and not oonly for the CW.

Letty

I said a breeder won´t give his best dog to a person he has never seen before. And the reasons are the ones Mirka wrote. I would always give my best puppy to a person who will show it, put it to bonitation and breed. A puppy overseas is lost for breeding in Europe. For me there is no such thing as a bad puppy but there are dogs that shouldn´t be lost for breeding and dogs that shouldn´t breed at all.
If someone wants to get a good breeding dog overseas he has to be informed very well about the race and breeders and keep contact before the puppy is born or the chance to get a really good one is very low. If he knows breeders and they know him as a responsible person that wants to fund a good breeding kennel they will help him to get good dogs.

No responsible breeder would give a puppy to a bad place and will allways try to find out as much as possible about the new owner and keep contact. If there are problems he will take the dog back and he will have a contract that gives him the right to take the dog back. The last is quite difficult with a dog overseas so you have to be very sure that it is the right owner for the dog.

Ina

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

You said, it is better to keep the good dogs in Europe, for getting Bonitation, shows, breeding and so on.

Do you know how many people will do this and how many dogs will be used for breeding??

The most of the people I know will have a dog for compagny and are not interesting at all in Bonitation, breeding and shows.

Is there then any difference if the puppy will stay in the USA or here in Europe??

Letty

As I mentioned in my post, this was my opinion and I expect that there are people who will not agree.
I it is quite normal, that every breeder has his own ideas about breeding, breeding ethics, purposes for breeding and also very special ideas about the future puppy owners. And of course, about the future of the pups.

There is nothing wrong to sell a pup to a person, who is not interested in breeding, bonitations or dog shows. But of course, then there is no reason (from my point of view) to sell this person the best pup of the litter, that might be of better use at owner, who intents to breed, show and bonitate.

That´s what I had in my mind. Maybe I just did not explain it well.

[RaeLee]

I it is quite normal, that every breeder has his own ideas about breeding, breeding ethics, purposes for breeding and also very special ideas about the future puppy owners. And of course, about the future of the pups.

There is nothing wrong to sell a pup to a person, who is not interested in breeding, bonitations or dog shows. But of course, then there is no reason (from my point of view) to sell this person the best pup of the litter, that might be of better use at owner, who intents to breed, show and bonitate.

[/quote]

Letty,

I must say that I agree and understand the point. My opinion is the same. I think it is VERY important for the breeder to know the true intentions of the buyer and the buyer to be honest in what those intentions are so that everyone can be happy. If I were breeding I would want the best since the whole point of breeding is to better the breed. However, like previously mentioned, what is "better" to one person may not be the ideal to another. For example, I may think a short stop is "better" than the longer stop and all it comes down to is personal interpretation of the standard.
I do not have any intentions of breeding so outward conformation may not top my list of importantance. That does not mean that I would't want to show in Conformation, Obedience, Lure, etc.. That doesn't mean I should accept the last pick of the litter because nobody else wants it. I should be sold the last pick of the litter if it happens that the last pick (or first pick, or middle pick, etc.) if the breeder thinks that particular puppy is the BEST SUITED for me...that's where trust on MY part comes in. That's where MY honesty and the breeder's honesty have to prevail.
I also think that any breeder that believes they should just send whatever overseas (or anywhere else) is setting up a potential disaster and in my opinion would make that breeder untrustworthy and furthermore undeserving of the breed. It is that type of breeder I dread the most.

I think ANY dog sold is and will ALWAYS be a representation of the kennel from which it came regardless of the informed/uninformed use of the pet/dog. I also feel that the person/dog team will ALWAYS be a reflection of the relationship between breeder and buyer. If the buyer isn't honest about the intentions then how can the buyer expect to be happy? If the breeder isn't honest then how can they ensure a long loving life for the puppy? That, I think, is the whole problem. It is so hard to find a good "match" of breeder and buyer because there are soooo many untrustworthy people on both sides. I can sit here all day and tell you my dog will be a pet, in my house, with my children, go with me here and there but how does the breeder KNOW this??? How do I KNOW the breeder is a good one??? Time.

Anyway, that's my opinion on this too. I understand what you are saying Letty and it sounds responsible to me. Perhaps I'm misinformed with my opinion but until I learn different that's what it is.


RaeLee