wolf percentage

Mikael · 08-08-2008, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance

Who dares to disagaree with me?

Yes that is what I think to, but there is a problem state that CsV are up to 30 % Wolf, sens people know aboute the problems whit 50% Wolf Hybrids is US and Canada.

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.

There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes

Regards / Mikael

GalomyOak · 08-08-2008, 20:53

In our country, and more specifically, states, there has been the struggle of what the legal definition of a wolfdog, or wolf hybrid is. Some states continue to outlaw hybrids, but I know from speaking to a family in one of those states, the government allows the CSV, since it has documentation that it is a dog. My state (Virginia) leaves it to the city or county to govern hybrids - you must have an exotic animal permit (and meet health/safety requirements) to legally keep a hybrid (of course, many are kept illegally in the US, though not in my city). I am NOT required to have a permit for our CSVs...they are registered DOGS.

Part of the question for the US government, or court, or animal control officer I think is: Who determines what a dog is - the kennel club, a veterinarian, green aliens from spaceships? I think our governments are smart (in this tiny instance) to recognize that there are organizations with more knowledge than themselves (such as AKC, or a veterinarian) to know what a dog is. Our AKC reciprocates registry with the FCI - if FCI calls it a dog, so does the AKC. The FCI called the CSV a dog in 1982, then AKC trusts, it is a dog (we just don't have enough CSVs here yet to have full AKC breed recognition). Dog x dog = 100%dog
Just in case our government had any questions, they look to the American Humane Society, who says anything after F5 is a dog - our dogs are several generations past...

Our new neighbors through the forest are not so easy to convince!

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..

Rona · 08-08-2008, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.
There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes

Well, I see your point now. But what makes the difference between a dog breed and dog/wolf hybrid is the level of predictability of the animal's appearance, character and behaviour. In case of CSV an exteremly tough and fast process of SELECTION for specific features took palce for several years. It was completed with a detailed breed standard and the establishmet of the breed. In in case of wolf/dog hybrids - there was no such targeted selection.

When getting a CSV the potential owner knows what animal he might expect (more or less

) . When buying a wolf/dog hybrid of any wolf blood content either 98% or 5%- he/she may expect anything - from a wolf to a dog or any combination of these.

Quote:

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..

You're absolutely right. Several elements seem to work "against" the breed: the term "wolfdog" itself, the clear and open attitude to the breed "history", the opennes of the owners/breeders about problems with pups' upbringing & dog training, not to mention the health problems, etc. etc.

But we have to choose: either we'll openly share information about the breed and particular dogs, honestly cooperate internationally at he level of clubs and particular owners, listen to each other and openly discuss various issues without prejudce OR spend time on anticipating what authorities in various countries think or may think and be bothered by that...

I don't consider the second attitude practical and I did explain the reason - we can never be sure what the authorities really think and what their true intentions/policies are.

I think that Per Olav's approach - the informative hard work 'at the bottom' is the best way to deal with institutional obstacles: people are scared of the unknown. When they get to know CSVs, see how the animals live and function in life, how predictable, and honest their owners are and how transpaent the breeding is (DNA, health tests etc. etc.)- they will be "domesticated" and stop treating CSVs and their masters as potential social threats.

Per Olav · 10-08-2008, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I think that Per Olav's approach - the informative hard work 'at the bottom' is the best way to deal with institutional obstacles: people are scared of the unknown. When they get to know CSVs, see how the animals live and function in life, how predictable, and honest their owners are and how transpaent the breeding is (DNA, health tests etc. etc.)- they will be "domesticated" and stop treating CSVs and their masters as potential social threats.

Thanks

In the Scandinavian countries the term "wolf hybrid" is a tense one, and as we all now incorrect - genetically spoken. Wolf hybrids are outlawed in Scandinavia and in Norway free living "hybrid" individuals are shot to death. If my wishes came true the History of the CSV should be re revised, or at least the "hybrid" term should be replaced with the more correct cross-breed og someting similar.
--
Per Olav

08-08-2008, 20:53	#2
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	In our country, and more specifically, states, there has been the struggle of what the legal definition of a wolfdog, or wolf hybrid is. Some states continue to outlaw hybrids, but I know from speaking to a family in one of those states, the government allows the CSV, since it has documentation that it is a dog. My state (Virginia) leaves it to the city or county to govern hybrids - you must have an exotic animal permit (and meet health/safety requirements) to legally keep a hybrid (of course, many are kept illegally in the US, though not in my city). I am NOT required to have a permit for our CSVs...they are registered DOGS. Part of the question for the US government, or court, or animal control officer I think is: Who determines what a dog is - the kennel club, a veterinarian, green aliens from spaceships? I think our governments are smart (in this tiny instance) to recognize that there are organizations with more knowledge than themselves (such as AKC, or a veterinarian) to know what a dog is. Our AKC reciprocates registry with the FCI - if FCI calls it a dog, so does the AKC. The FCI called the CSV a dog in 1982, then AKC trusts, it is a dog (we just don't have enough CSVs here yet to have full AKC breed recognition). Dog x dog = 100%dog Just in case our government had any questions, they look to the American Humane Society, who says anything after F5 is a dog - our dogs are several generations past... Our new neighbors through the forest are not so easy to convince! I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..