Cesar about Wolf-Dog Hybrids

[mijke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpQVjYFcSE

[tupacs2legs]

yuk,yuk,yuk lol!

[Silvester]

Very interesting !! Good made , the infos are correct - with the exception of one :

There are no tigers existing in Africa ! Not now and not at any time.

(it´s told in the film that:....taking a wolf or high- content wolfdog in captivity or in a house ,it´s like you take a tiger out of Africa to your home...")

I´m wondering about that lack of knowledge - just because the other infos were correct and good, like I told before.

Nevertheless - fine video, thank you mijke!!

Nice sunday to everyone here!

Uli alias Silvester from Germany

[sssmok]

In the original film there was 3 wolfdogs and 3 problems (disobedience, fearfulness, separation anxiety). They have good ideas for helping dogs and their owners.

This film is very nice for people who want wolfdog - they see what could they have in home in future Behavior of this wolf-dogs and CSV is very very similar Not all dogs are like this from film but... better know everything

[Fede86]

But it seems to me they want to go a bit too much "Shaun Ellis" on a "wolfdog" that looks very much a pure dog That dog looks like a husky mix to me, I don't see much wolf there, I think they would do much better if they tried to treat her like a DOG and not like something she's not.

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Fede86

But it seems to me they want to go a bit too much "Shaun Ellis" on a "wolfdog" that looks very much a pure dog That dog looks like a husky mix to me, I don't see much wolf there, I think they would do much better if they tried to treat her like a DOG and not like something she's not.

Define what going 'Shaun Ellis' means?!

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Fede86

But it seems to me they want to go a bit too much "Shaun Ellis" on a "wolfdog" that looks very much a pure dog That dog looks like a husky mix to me, I don't see much wolf there, I think they would do much better if they tried to treat her like a DOG and not like something she's not.

My first thoughts were that as well.

I found some of it quite interesting.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Murph

Define what going 'Shaun Ellis' means?!

I mean that they want to relate to this dog as if she was a wolf, trying to explain everything she does by comparing her to a wolf... it seems to me she is just a dog that has not been educated well enough, nothing more nothing less.

I can't see the video, was it taken down?

[Tazer]

Seizes entire ethos, is based on his assumption that wild wolves and domestic dogs are exactly the same in terms of behaviour.
He works off the old dominance theory model, which has largely been debunked.

Personally, I don't rate him or his methods.


Taz

[Jennin Lauma]

I completely agree with Fede86.

Oh, my... I'm so tired of these statements like "the animal is confused, it does not know whether it is a dog or a wolf"... yadiyadiyadiyaa...
That does not make any sence at all! -If I breed a Dogo Argentino to a Lab, will the puppies have split personalities and be confuced because they do not know whether they should act like a fierce fighter or a seeing eye quide...? My gosh... think about it.

And the thing Jennifer does to this very low content wolfdog (mostly Husky/Malamute) when it starts chasing her and grabs her leg, would be down right dangerous with a wolf or high content wolfdog.
Just ask anyone (other than Shaun Ellis) who is REALLY experienced with wolves & high content wolfdogs, they would never recommend you to try acting like a wolf and dominate the animal by staring and growling to it's face. -You might just end up loosing your face...
All the real experts on wolves & wolfdogs tell you to act human and train the animal with the same methods we know today are the most effective ways to train a dog, -or just about any animal; the positive reinforcement. All those domination theories and punishment - based training methods are old days dog training, and today scientifically proven wrong and ineffective, often causing even more troubles.

And of course, to better understand a (real) wolfy wolfdog, one should learn to understand the differences in wolf behaviour and doggy-dog behaviour. Basically all the same behaviours we see in wolves, are found in dogs too. Only the wolf behaviour is generally many times more intense. -And that is what causes probles for people who don't understand, and do not know how to handle and train an animal. -And I'm not only talking about lack of knowledge about training a wolf or a wolfdog, but any animal in general.
Also it is important to know and understand the differences in hormone activity in wolves and dogs, and especially what that often means with mature wolves / wolfy-wolfdogs between the seasons. Wolves are fertile only once a year and during that time their hormones kick in, causing some changes in behaviour.

One part that was corrct in the film was that when Jennifer said noted that the wolf is a highly territorial animal. And so it is not a "collect them all" -kind of an animal for people who want their animals to be social. But the world is full of doggy-dogs that are known to be unsocial too. And though I do not own a CsV myself, I have understood that this is typical for those too, isn't it?

And BTW; to all Cesar fans here, this is how he trains a fearfull wolfdog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq62POnD7sA

^You call this today's dog training? Here in our country, strangling an animal is concidered illegal, and with "training" methods like this, you would soon end up in trouble with the authorities.
Also I've seen Cesar kicking the dogs, and for example using an electric collar on a black GSD to accustom it to the family's cat. -I wonder how the dog should learn to concider the cat as a friend / family member, when teached that every time the cat enters the room and the dog sees the cat, it get's painfull shocks...?

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

I completely agree with Fede86.

Oh, my... I'm so tired of these statements like "the animal is confused, it does not know whether it is a dog or a wolf"... yadiyadiyadiyaa...
That does not make any sence at all! -If I breed a Dogo Argentino to a Lab, will the puppies have split personalities and be confuced because they do not know whether they should act like a fierce fighter or a seeing eye quide...? My gosh... think about it.

And the thing Jennifer does to this very low content wolfdog (mostly Husky/Malamute) when it starts chasing her and grabs her leg, would be down right dangerous with a wolf or high content wolfdog.
Just ask anyone (other than Shaun Ellis) who is REALLY experienced with wolves & high content wolfdogs, they would never recommend you to try acting like a wolf and dominate the animal by staring and growling to it's face. -You might just end up loosing your face...
All the real experts on wolves & wolfdogs tell you to act human and train the animal with the same methods we know today are the most effective ways to train a dog, -or just about any animal; the positive reinforcement. All those domination theories and punishment - based training methods are old days dog training, and today scientifically proven wrong and ineffective, often causing even more troubles.

And of course, to better understand a (real) wolfy wolfdog, one should learn to understand the differences in wolf behaviour and doggy-dog behaviour. Basically all the same behaviours we see in wolves, are found in dogs too. Only the wolf behaviour is generally many times more intense. -And that is what causes probles for people who don't understand, and do not know how to handle and train an animal. -And I'm not only talking about lack of knowledge about training a wolf or a wolfdog, but any animal in general.
Also it is important to know and understand the differences in hormone activity in wolves and dogs, and especially what that often means with mature wolves / wolfy-wolfdogs between the seasons. Wolves are fertile only once a year and during that time their hormones kick in, causing some changes in behaviour.

One part that was corrct in the film was that when Jennifer said noted that the wolf is a highly territorial animal. And so it is not a "collect them all" -kind of an animal for people who want their animals to be social. But the world is full of doggy-dogs that are known to be unsocial too. And though I do not own a CsV myself, I have understood that this is typical for those too, isn't it?

And BTW; to all Cesar fans here, this is how he trains a fearfull wolfdog:

^You call this today's dog training? Here in our country, strangling an animal is concidered illegal, and with "training" methods like this, you would soon end up in trouble with the authorities.
Also I've seen Cesar kicking the dogs, and for example using an electric collar on a black GSD to accustom it to the family's cat. -I wonder how the dog should learn to concider the cat as a friend / family member, when teached that every time the cat enters the room and the dog sees the cat, it get's painfull shocks...?

good post!! completely agree .....and as for c.m!!

[AMERICANI]

That dog wanted to open him up. What method would you have used? Every time I have been in a fight and choked someone out or had been choked out, my eyes, face, and skin turn red, and my tongue turns bluish, but I have never been injured from it, so I know there is a possibility (he does care for the well being of the animal even if it looked really bad (which I'm not arguing - it did) I am not wanting to appear hostile! I do not condone any form of abuse! I just think, perhaps, that was the only way to get that dog out of that state of dominance. I just can't see another way to get this animal out of that state. The last thing you would want would be for him to turn on a person (especially the handler) then he gets put down and the wolfdog community gets another bad mark. The moment the dog chilled out, Ceasar let off... Honestly, if there is a better way, please post a link. I'm just happy none of my dogs have ever been in that mindset. These aren't little dogs. As for E-Collars, I have put one on my own neck and used it (I use everything on myself first before using it on my dogs)..... it isnt harmful (seeing stars for a couple of seconds isn't harmful, just annoying) and I wouldn't call it pain, just very startling and attention grabbing!.. (with this said, MANY people misuse MANY types of training equipment.. and without proper training or education, many people don't need to use certain tools.. I returned the E-Collar because it didn't always make contact through heavy fur, and I was afraid I would put it on too tight... Perfect example - I wasn't properly trained to use the thing, and I didn't need it.. As far as kicking, Cesar has made it clear that he hasn't kicked the dog hard, he only used his foot as a distraction (Please tell me if I have missed a particular episode!).. I just wanted to leave my 2 cents... Again, not being hostile..

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

Oh, my... I'm so tired of these statements like "the animal is confused, it does not know whether it is a dog or a wolf"... yadiyadiyadiyaa...

[...]

Also I've seen Cesar kicking the dogs, and for example using an electric collar on a black GSD to accustom it to the family's cat. -I wonder how the dog should learn to concider the cat as a friend / family member, when teached that every time the cat enters the room and the dog sees the cat, it get's painfull shocks...?

I agree. I am quite open minded and I always try to take the best from everyone's theory and methods, I watch Millan on TV and I even read his book. There are some things he says (says, not does) I agree with, for example that you have to be calm and assertive when dealing with a dog, or that many problems can be avoided or partially solved simply by sufficiently stimulating a dog with physical and mental activities.

But all in all there are two ways to deal with a dog's problems: the first is to work on the dog's "feelings" toward a certain situation, which are the cause of its behavior/reactions. The second is to forget about what the dog's mental state is and only work on the reaction itself, shaping or repressing it. It seems to me that Millan basically does the latter. Which also mean that once the control on the dog's reactions weavers, the dog goes back to act as its psychological and emotional state of mind suggests it. So you don't solve the dog's problem, only its owner's problems in dealing with them.

Now, I realize there are some (very few I'd dare to say) cases when you can no longer change a dog's state of mind, when the dog is so far gone that to work on his feelings is too hard ore you don't manage to do it. At that point the only solution to retain a minimum of control on the dog is to at least change its behavior, which is better than nothing.

But that doesn't mean Millan's way is the correct way to educate/train a dog on principle, I would only see that as the very last solution (better than euthanasia or than having the dog live the rest of his life in an enclosure), and you still have to be conscious of the fact that you have not solved the problem, only shoved it under a rug...

What I don't find wise is to publicize his methods on TV to people who mostly cannot have a critical outlook on what he does, and I also don't understand why he uses those methods as his first solution without trying to work on the dog's state of mind first, when possible. Probably because its quicker, easier and cheaper...

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I agree. I am quite open minded and I always try to take the best from everyone's theory and methods, I watch Millan on TV and I even read his book. There are some things he says (says, not does) I agree with, for example that you have to be calm and assertive when dealing with a dog, or that many problems can be avoided or partially solved simply by sufficiently stimulating a dog with physical and mental activities.

..........

What I don't find wise is to publicize his methods on TV to people who mostly cannot have a critical outlook on what he does, and I also don't understand why he uses those methods as his first solution without trying to work on the dog's state of mind first, when possible. Probably because its quicker, easier and cheaper...

Exactly! I completely agree with you.

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I agree. I am quite open minded and I always try to take the best from everyone's theory and methods, I watch Millan on TV and I even read his book. There are some things he says (says, not does) I agree with, for example that you have to be calm and assertive when dealing with a dog, or that many problems can be avoided or partially solved simply by sufficiently stimulating a dog with physical and mental activities.

But all in all there are two ways to deal with a dog's problems: the first is to work on the dog's "feelings" toward a certain situation, which are the cause of its behavior/reactions. The second is to forget about what the dog's mental state is and only work on the reaction itself, shaping or repressing it. It seems to me that Millan basically does the latter. Which also mean that once the control on the dog's reactions weavers, the dog goes back to act as its psychological and emotional state of mind suggests it. So you don't solve the dog's problem, only its owner's problems in dealing with them.

Now, I realize there are some (very few I'd dare to say) cases when you can no longer change a dog's state of mind, when the dog is so far gone that to work on his feelings is too hard ore you don't manage to do it. At that point the only solution to retain a minimum of control on the dog is to at least change its behavior, which is better than nothing.

But that doesn't mean Millan's way is the correct way to educate/train a dog on principle, I would only see that as the very last solution (better than euthanasia or than having the dog live the rest of his life in an enclosure), and you still have to be conscious of the fact that you have not solved the problem, only shoved it under a rug...

What I don't find wise is to publicize his methods on TV to people who mostly cannot have a critical outlook on what he does, and I also don't understand why he uses those methods as his first solution without trying to work on the dog's state of mind first, when possible. Probably because its quicker, easier and cheaper...

Thats it - I left out the part where the the owner had done the most harm in letting the dog get to that point, and you absolutely touched on what I was shooting for! If this problem (which the unwanted behavior has now been suppressed) returns, all of this fighting and choking - would be done again - the problem wasn't fixed.. This is cruel. These techniques are identical to my previously mentioned equipment, where people shouldn't have them or use them if they aren't qualified.

Originally Posted by Fede86

What I don't find wise is to publicize his methods on TV to people who mostly cannot have a critical outlook on what he does, and I also don't understand why he uses those methods as his first solution without trying to work on the dog's state of mind first, when possible. Probably because its quicker, easier and cheaper...

What you need to understand to see where he's (wrongly) coming from, is that he got his start in a grooming shop. What you have to do in a situation like that (limited time, a need to get the work done no matter what) is vastly different than what an owner should do at home. Like you said, it does absolutely nothing to work at the root cause of the problem. People saw Cesar had a knack for it, so with ZERO actual education, he starts training dogs. I'm sorry, but I'm a groomer, I am 100% confident in my own abilities as a trainer with my own pets, but I'm not about to go teaching people without getting training for myself first! We expect a certain level of education in our "experts" that we trust, but just because Cesar has a flashy, quick method, people spout it as gosspal without questioning it.

Jason, as far as other methods go, Cesar is just pushing the dog WAY too fast. You don't need to "dominate" a dog, quite the contrary, actually. Especially a dog that is already shy, it just makes it worse. People that follow dominance based training always mention wolves, but the fact that you CAN push a dog down, so to speak, and they still come back wanting to please is a trait they developed as they domesticated. The village dogs that hung around despite abuse are the ones that got the most scraps and survived to breed.

You need to work to establish trust with a dog like that before bringing it to a situation where it might react. You have no need to dodge teeth when you can easily avoid what brought the dog to that threshold to begin with.

Here's an article that talks about why dominance theory is antiquated:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by Vicky

What you need to understand to see where he's (wrongly) coming from, is that he got his start in a grooming shop. What you have to do in a situation like that (limited time, a need to get the work done no matter what) is vastly different than what an owner should do at home. Like you said, it does absolutely nothing to work at the root cause of the problem. People saw Cesar had a knack for it, so with ZERO actual education, he starts training dogs. I'm sorry, but I'm a groomer, I am 100% confident in my own abilities as a trainer with my own pets, but I'm not about to go teaching people without getting training for myself first! We expect a certain level of education in our "experts" that we trust, but just because Cesar has a flashy, quick method, people spout it as gosspal without questioning it.

Jason, as far as other methods go, Cesar is just pushing the dog WAY too fast. You don't need to "dominate" a dog, quite the contrary, actually. Especially a dog that is already shy, it just makes it worse. People that follow dominance based training always mention wolves, but the fact that you CAN push a dog down, so to speak, and they still come back wanting to please is a trait they developed as they domesticated. The village dogs that hung around despite abuse are the ones that got the most scraps and survived to breed.

You need to work to establish trust with a dog like that before bringing it to a situation where it might react. You have no need to dodge teeth when you can easily avoid what brought the dog to that threshold to begin with.

Here's an article that talks about why dominance theory is antiquated:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

I agree with you guys - thanks Vicky (for the link) I agree 100% with everything said in that article, but perhaps my definition of dominance and being Alpha wasn't "textbook". I was in the Navy for 14 years.. Never in that time was one of my seniors or officers aggressive or violent. However, they were dominant and they were leaders. Leadership, perhaps, is what most people confuse with dominance.. So when I say I am dominant, I mean "in charge" perhaps we shouldn't use Alpha because that leads us astray and into the realm of being integrated into the CANINE pack - we are a pack, just multi-species... I am confident (example given: ) when I take my dogs to this park where we hike in the woods and go to the Lake Worth spillway, my dogs wiil stay within sight of me and follow back to the car and get in when we are finished. They aren't afraid of violent repercussions if they don't. It is just respect.. On the same note, the one I actually face problems with personally, and the one that proves we aren't dogs (if we need proof), My animals are all well behaved, but the females (and males) want to kill each-other, regardless of what I do alone to stop a fight (I have successfully took a pair of females and a pair of males together (I had help at the time, and I used the "dominant down" for aggression, eventually achieved a state of peace ( I took them to the lake together without fights), but there still remained a measure of tension between the two. They did not fully enjoy the setting near as much as they should have (or would being paired with a different dog). I have to keep them separated, and I hate it.. They matured and stopped getting along.

My earlier post was focused on that particular dog in the video. It was already to the point that it needed fixing then and there. You saw Cesar's arm.. those weren't love nibbles (yet, they weren't at all the worst bite)..

Oh, I see, now! Yeah, semantics are all screwed up with dog training, just because of the associations connected to words over the years. Even if some ideas seem to overlap, it's become standard to drop things like "alpha" and "dominant" for other terms, like being firm with rules and not being a pushover, haha.

Just as an aside, I think the best learning experience I've had in terms of training was the wolf and dog behavior seminar my husband and I attended at Wolf Park in Indiana. They talked about how they train the wolves (only by reward and shaping behavior through treats, absolutely zero correction) and how you can use those methods on dogs, but never any other dog training (i.e. corrections, dominance, etc.) on wolves because they haven't been bred over the years to respond to humans the way dogs do. Just puts it into an interesting perspective.

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

That dog wanted to open him up. What method would you have used? Every time I have been in a fight and choked someone out or had been choked out, my eyes, face, and skin turn red, and my tongue turns bluish, but I have never been injured from it, so I know there is a possibility (he does care for the well being of the animal even if it looked really bad (which I'm not arguing - it did) I am not wanting to appear hostile! I do not condone any form of abuse! I just think, perhaps, that was the only way to get that dog out of that state of dominance. I just can't see another way to get this animal out of that state. The last thing you would want would be for him to turn on a person (especially the handler) then he gets put down and the wolfdog community gets another bad mark. The moment the dog chilled out, Ceasar let off... Honestly, if there is a better way, please post a link. I'm just happy none of my dogs have ever been in that mindset. These aren't little dogs. As for E-Collars, I have put one on my own neck and used it (I use everything on myself first before using it on my dogs)..... it isnt harmful (seeing stars for a couple of seconds isn't harmful, just annoying) and I wouldn't call it pain, just very startling and attention grabbing!.. (with this said, MANY people misuse MANY types of training equipment.. and without proper training or education, many people don't need to use certain tools.. I returned the E-Collar because it didn't always make contact through heavy fur, and I was afraid I would put it on too tight... Perfect example - I wasn't properly trained to use the thing, and I didn't need it.. As far as kicking, Cesar has made it clear that he hasn't kicked the dog hard, he only used his foot as a distraction (Please tell me if I have missed a particular episode!).. I just wanted to leave my 2 cents... Again, not being hostile..

The dog only wanted to open him up because he threw it into a situation it was not equip to deal with.

He deliberately placed it in close proximity to a dog it cannot cope with seeing (the owners told him this) waited for it to get wound up, I am not sure if he deliberately ignored the signals the dog was giving off or he was not expecting the dog to react to his 'interference' the way it did.

the dog gives several signals before it reacts - he waits for it to be right on the edge and then he pushes it over by 'nudging'. What you are seeing is redirected aggression. The dog is SO hyped due to what he has done it.

This is a great clip on how to ignore dogs body language and what can happen when you do.

I feel so sorry for the dog.