Norwegian ban on SW and CzW

[XaedasKSP]

Well if you can track my IP and by this find out exactly where I live and who I am then come on go ask the police or who you are gonna ask to do it (I guess you will see its not so easy as you think) , it will be a nice cause to show people in Norway about how the socialist government can control us even on the net and monitor us all the time so we cant have private life....

BTW why dont you tell us what you have achieved by many years of hard work and when we can expect the Storting to vote about changing the law or when will "statsråder" even rethink the law.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

[--]it will be a nice cause to show people in Norway about how the socialist government can control us even on the net and monitor us all the time so we cant have private life....

BTW why dont you tell us what you have achieved by many years of hard work and when we can expect the Storting to vote about changing the law or when will "statsråder" even rethink the law.

I suppose you never heard of Echelon or the EU Data Storage Directive ( EU-direktiv 2006/24/EF) commented in Norwegian on Wiki?

Changing a law is not easily done as everyone should know. Neither is it our Members of Parliament the people who do the "rethinking". I strongly advice you to get some knowledge of how democracy works and how making laws and changing laws is done.
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[Rona]

Dear Admin,
Could you please punish XaedasKSP for spamming TWO wofdog forums with irrelevant, political posts?

Although I've got a remarkable record of struggling with communism in Poland long before this ignorant, cynical boy was born, I consider his obsessive 'political' writing noxious.

Who is for?

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Rona

Who is for?

Both hands above my head and my feet are struggling to follow
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[XaedasKSP]

As long as the politics are the ones preventing people in normally keeping CSV in Norway then its absolutely relevant to discuss it....

Especially when one member of the forum claims he is working on chaning the law in Norway and an another one claims that the CSV is created by communists and therefore a "communist dog" then I have to be allowed to answer both of them. Since what is being debated here is a strictly connected to the politics....

And I see you have been taught in this "struggle" that cenzorship is a very nice method of silencing people who say something against the governmental practice? Wonder how you struggled.....by watching what people do and reporting it to the closest "milicja-station" or ZOMO ?

Admin will hopefully understand that when people come with political based arguments to me then I have to answer them politically too. And isnt this part of the forum named Clubs & law ?? Law is based on politics....let us have freedom of speech!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Socialist way of make dogs blablabla

Originally Posted by Rona

Dear Admin,
Could you please punish XaedasKSP for spamming TWO wofdog forums with irrelevant, political posts?

Although I've got a remarkable record of struggling with communism in Poland long before this ignorant, cynical boy was born, I consider his obsessive 'political' writing noxious.

Who is for?

Of course, for Captain Picard sake... 7 days frozen as warn , if Admin dont kick him out first, next time of this behaviour I will ban him forever.

------------------------
Now 3 weeks because the clone, next and will be forever.

[Per Olav]

Thanks
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[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Of course, for Captain Picard sake... 7 days frozen as warn , if Admin dont kick him out first, next time of this behaviour I will ban him forever.

I vote yes to…. god I like democracy

By by Schoolboy

Thanks Nebb good work

Very best regards / Mikael

[XaedasKSP]

Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned. So to say that its not a case of right or left side of politics is strange after personally writing about who pushed on to get the law about banning CzW, but I shall not write more about politics this is the last thing I had to say just so you know that banning me was unfair)

Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes....

As for the case of the dog, then I have found a perfect solution, the Saarloos Wolfhond which is 100 % legal in Norway. This way I can have a "wolfie" and have it legally, in addition after I have read more about this race I found out that its even better for the place where I live than a CzW.

In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned. Instead it could be an idea to inform about SW and that its legal in Norway so people who live in Norway and want a CzW can read about the less known race of SWs and see if they maybe can be just as happy owning a SW like they would be with a CzW.

Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. People who are looking for a wolfdog do most often find the CzW as the first result and absolutely no info about SW and then they dont know that it is possible to have a wolfdog legally in Norway and that this possibility is the SW (all wolfhybrids and other wolfmixes are actually too illegal like the CzW so SW is the only option in Norway).

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned.

I don't want to debate your misunderstanding any more. If you cut and focus on one single statement from a seven page contex anything can be "proven". Even if most debated, the Norwegian ban of named breeds was a minor issue of the law as a whole. And as I've earlier written - the reason of banning the csv was not a political one but the law itself was a political issue as its existence is a matter of debate and the voting of the Members of our Parliament and NOT depending on the confused opinnon of the chairman of a single political party.

In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned.

Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. .

This thread started back in 2002 when a ban on both breeds was discussed. By following the thread you'll see how the matter developed and how the csv became the single target by groups of special interrest. The SW was just on the edge of beeing banned and still might be.

No one have ever expressed the SW as a banned breed of Norway. On the contrary the legal keeping of sw has been mentioned in this thread as well as in others.

The main purpose of this site is discussing the csv - not SW nor Norwegian laws. Myself I'm quite horrified by your writing. Do you really want to keep a rare breed like a sw just because of its wolfie look and its "rareness" and for no other purpose but that?

I suppose you are informed that our law is stating that if any negative incident (no matter where) made by sw is observed by our authorities the legal keeping of it may be reconsidered. Sad to say - based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour you're in my opinnion not the right person to keep neither a csv nor a sw and I do hope no one ever will sell you one 'cause this might be hazzardous for the future of the handfull sw individals remaining in this country and the work of many good people fighting for a remake of the law made by responsible persons with knowledge of dogs.
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[XaedasKSP]

Yes I know that the thread was started in 2002 and that if someone read the whole thread carefully then he/she can find out that SWs are not banned in Norway.

But I just thought about the "random user" who will find this page and this forum looking for a wolfdog. And then if that user even ever heard of a SW (which is much less known as the CzW) when seeing this title might think that both races are banned....if he/she dont study the whole thread carefully. As for the purpose of the site well its still called "wolfdog.org" and there are forum parts about "other wolfdogs" and this forum part is about the law so its being discussed here.....

As for the law, well it looks like the government have iced the whole case, and since its totally not logic to ban dogs that havent been involved in any accidents while dogs like rotweilers can create "accident" after "accident" and no one cares....another proof of this is that even norwegian breeders are starting to breed SWs again and there will probably be SW litter in Norway in february 2010 (ofc. they like extra special price in Norway (even as for norway), nearly 3000 euro, which I would actually pay but lucky for me I found a breeder in germany who have already got a litter that is just waiting to become 8 weeks and a normal price of 1000 euros) so it looks like the plans of a ban are long forgotten in the shadow of history.

And as for me I dont want to keep a rare breed cause its rare, I would just as much wish to have a wolfdog if everyone in the world owned one. When I refer to it as "wolfie" then its because I really like wolfes and the wolflook of SWs and CzWs makes them really beautiful in my eyes. And if you read the history of the SW then you find out that one of the purposes of the breeders of the race was "the wolfie look" so the highly competent breeders have made the dog become more "wolfie" than the original inventor of the race did. And the dog is classified as "company dog" race, unlike the CzW that is listed as "working dog" race.

As for the liknesses in character of the SW and CzW they are extremly many if you read the official character description of the dogs. The main difference is that SW is more shy and it cant work in the police for example. And SW is actually an even more suitable race for someone who live in an area with not too many people in the closest neighbourhood and close to forests. I have carefully read the official descriptions of the characters of the both races and if you do that too then you will find out that very many people who just know about the more popular CzW could have an SW which actually could suit their situation even better, since there are few people who buy a CzW because they want to train it like a police dog. Shyness of a dog is probably totally ok for a dog that is meant to be a family dog. In any case those dogs are not extremly different, both in presence and character.

"based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage.

As for my keeping of SW well I will watch the dog carefully enough to dont let any accident happen, and from what I know about dogs accidents got much bigger chance of happening with a Rotweiler or even a German sheperd than with a SW which is all the time described as a shy dog.

And as for the SW I have already got a deal about getting a pup I am just waiting for it to become 8 weeks, and its not bought in Norway, but there shall also be Saarloos pups in Norway in February 2010 maybe even 2 litters are planned for 2010 from what I have heard (since there are already 11 people on the waitlist for a pup in Norway even before the pups are born) so there will be definitly more Saarlooses in Norway than just a "handfull". And I think this can just HELP the case of CsV getting allowed since if the government will care too look. Since they will se that SWs function perfectly well in Norway even when there are more dogs than "a handfull". So then they will probably think that it can go well too with CSV if it becomes legal.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

"based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage.

It's no personal attack, look at your prev postings and what others have responded to your writings. And I must say if every right winged do express themselves like you do I'll consider changing my political platform.

As for Mr Werner who years ago participated in some discussions on this forum no attack is published on my home page, but like other "advisors" to our Ministry of Justice a summary of some of his writing is refered and well documented on my home page as well as on others. You also find a resumé of this made by the Kennel Klub etc.

And hereby I perfer to end my discussion with you on this subject and no more Pm's please
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[XaedasKSP]

Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....they were also based on the fact that people thought it could be dangerous for the dog that is not allowed in Norway to live here.

And your response came after I said that I resign from breaking any laws etc. so it shall not be dangerous for the dog and that I am going to get a SW instead of CSV. For example on the polish forum after I wrote this I havent got any negative reply just positive replies and congratulations for the right decision and finding a Saarloos that I can get. I dont know if this might be caused by the fact that most people in Poland different to those in Scandinavia dont like the "left side" of politics (since many people in Poland have experienced the "dark side" of the left side on their own skin) but I shall not discuss the politics here since its not allowed. But I must be allowed to express that I think that most of the negative replies against me here were based more on the political point of view "that made me unsuited" in their eyes to own a wolfdog.

Either way I had to respond to those "attacks". Now I shall get over to the wolfdog part of the forum and rather create an informative thread about the SW and where people can find the breeders so they wont need to search as much as I did to find a SW breeder who got litters or is planning litters soon. And also get some more info about the race that is legal wolfdog alternative in Norway + general info since I think many people only know about the CSV and dont have any idea that there do exist another wolfdog race that from the character description can maybe be even more suitable as pure "familiy dog".

I wish you good luck with trying to lift the CSV ban in Norway and I hope that if it get lifted after the government change in 2013 I will not get banned for explaining the political right-left reason of it in a thread that is about the law and as we all know law is made by politics.

Ahh and since you added something to your post I have to respond to this too (I hope I dont get banned for answering politics with politics), well if you really wasnt on the left side of the platform as you suggest here then you would probably never tell everyone that this case had nothing to do with the left or right of politics. Since its clearly expressed even on your homepage that it was SV who pushed on to get the ban (probably traded it off for their votes on some other case that the other parties wanted to achieve) after the ban wasnt achieved in the first voting in the "Storting". Every political party must be responsible for what laws they are pushing on to achieve and it isnt possible to say. "Yes they made the law become reality, but you cant say its their political view".

[Per Olav]

You still don't understand, do you?

Why do you think there a no sw breeders in Norway anymore. Why are sw seldom seen on Norwegian dog shows? Why are Norwegian sw owners not seen on Norwegian foras and why do they keep a very low profile not to say beeing totally absent in any debate regarding dogs and dog law? Why do you think two sws were poisoned inside the owners dog yard?

Who will ever sell a wolfdog to an unexperienced owner not knowing what kind of trouble he or she might face?
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[XaedasKSP]

If you read my post carefully then you would read that there is a norwegian breeder of Saarlooses that will start breeding them with first litter planned for February 2010 and there will be at least 2 litters in 2010 and there are already 11 reserved pups even before any pup is born. So there will soon be many more Saarlooses in Norway. So I dunno who dont understand....

I shall not buy my SW there since I found a breeder outside Norway who have already got a litter of SW that are already born and I reserved a beautiful pup there that I will import with the allowance from "mattilsynet" when it becomes 8 weeks. In addition everything will be much much cheaper, so I shall not wait on the litter in Norway then.

As for the attacks against dogs, well a "villager" (dunno how bonde is translated to english, my bad) shot someones hunting dog just because the dog ran over his potato field where he sometimes had his sheep. So all dogs can get in danger in Norway if the owner let the dog run without leash in the city or close to any human settlement. Its no special crusade against SWs here.

As for my dogexperience well maybe you are a clearvoyant so you know exactly what experience people have with dogs even when they dont say anything about it. But in the case you are not, then I would like to say that I have in 14 years had experience with a German Sheperd that my family had, so I am not unexperienced. But of course I dont claim to be a "dog master" like many of you probably are or think so. Therefore I shall be very careful with my dog and always keep an eye on him when outside of my possesion and hold it on a leash even in the forest close to my place. Only in uninhabited mountain terrain (far, far away from potatofields and "villagers") I shall let the dog run without the leash or on my private possesion.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

If you read my post carefully then you would read that there is a norwegian breeder of Saarlooses that will start breeding them with first litter planned for February 2010 and there will be at least 2 litters in 2010 and there are already 11 reserved pups even before any pup is born. So there will soon be many more Saarlooses in Norway. So I dunno who dont understand....

I'm fully aware of that and also fully aware of what this breeder is facing.

As for my dogexperience well maybe you are a clearvoyant so you know exactly what experience people have with dogs even when they dont say anything about it. But in the case you are not, then I would like to say that I have in 14 years had experience with a German Sheperd that my family had, so I am not unexperienced. .

Beeing a student aged 23 by now I fully understand your expertice, Myself I've been owner, dog trainer and rescue dog trainer of working breed GSD's and Belgian Sheperds close to 40 years.. But a csv is no German shepherd or a Belgian Shepherd. Neither is a saarloos.
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[XaedasKSP]

I do know it perfectly that neither a Saarloos or a CSV is a German Sheperd (although they do actually have som GSD blood :P). And as for the dogexperience well your dogexperience is of course very long and probably you know what to do with your dogs. But still when you got your first CSV it still wasnt a german sheperd or a belgian sheperd that you have worked with before.

So there have to be the first time with a Saarloos or with a CSV, cause if CSV/SW experience were required to own a SW or CSV then there would be no new owners of those dogs, and even you wouldnt get the one you have :P So I think it is possible to own a SW and suceed with it. It will just require much carefullness and time spent with the dog and teaching the dog in the manner that SW breeder advise.

Ofc. someone who has 40 years experience is better suited to own such a dog but I really doubt if such long experience is required to own a SW or CSV

Ah and just a small correction I am a student aged 21...but I dont think age have something to do with ability to handle a SW, I think that the most importand thing is the amount of time that people have to take care of the dog and to teach it the right behaviour in a proper way. Right now I am trying to get all the possible literature upon Saarlooses and how to properly teach a Saarloos the correct behaviour. Since I guess it will be a harder task than teaching a German Sheperd.

[Per Olav]

IMHO you are still missing the most important matter. I don't write about what is possible in training but of peoples attitude. As a devoted dog trainer you can achieve almost anything you want but you can't change someones prejustice and attitude against the breeds. That's what caused the ban on the csv and pushing the sw to the edge of it. The more wolfdogs and more inexperienced owners overseeing that fact - the more certain a ban on the breed may be foreseen.
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[Mikael]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes....

BTW, I did send e-mails to ALL Saarloos kennels today, warning them and linking to this topic good luck

Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....

Sorry but you are wrong as always I vote 100% Moderaterna, that is the right side...

Love you to Best regards / Mikael

[XaedasKSP]

Yes I know that there are many people in Norway who might not like the breed although I have in person met no one who hate wolves only on debate forums and on internet never face to face.

But the existence of those people cant make us not have Saarlooses, and the best example of not caring about those few people shouting high is the breeder who breed saarlooses and until now from what I have heard from the breeder she havent had any problems with anyone who dont like the dogs....

What I think you mean is that inexperienced owners can lead to "accidents" and that can be prevented by training, being carefull and using time on the dog. And even if the governement for some strange reason would ban SWs then my dog will be perfectly safe since they cant kill the dogs that are already legally in Norway. Just as they allowed you too keep the CSV.

And other peoples prejustice if there exist wont have any influence on my dog.....since both me and the dog is protected by law actually.

And as for Mikael: well since I cant answer you in the manner I wish to on this forum I shall skip it and rather talk about in a more political forum. And as for your earlier comment you said " Do not be to sure about that, way do you think they just lost It looks like all people in Norway do not think like you, thank god." so if you are happy that FrP and the "right side" lost then you can definitly not be on the "right side" yourself. (The political talk I do here is just answering others talking politically to me, so I cant be banned for that unless they too get banned).


And I congratulate you on doing the hard work of finding all the Saarloos kennels in Europe it really takes some time since they are not easy to find.
Sadly for you it all is in vain since I have already reserved my dog and everything is already booked I have even called the "mattilsynet" about getting import allowance. So sadly for you the breeder isnt a socialist ***** ** **** (sadly I cant express what I wish since politics are forbidden here) and understand that the dog will have a very nice life at my place with all it can ever need. And it is 100 % legal so no matter how unhappy you are that I have realised my dream there is nothing you can do about it.....