Not suitable to the training?

z Peronówki · 07-08-2002, 17:27

Quote:

I translate the first phrase: Already it had been
attempted, in Germany and Czechoslovakia, to create a
breed that had a substantial part of the genetic
characteristics of the wolf, but all the experiments
were failed because of they were escapes animals not
perfectly balances to and therefore not suitable to
the training. To us it has gone differently ...
How can I still take a walk in the Italian parks with
my Ronny without shame?

It is always the same story...

)) I have read so many articles where the
author wrote "crosses, for example Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, will be never
good working dogs". And the best "specialists" are people who never saw a
CzW before...

))

Greetings,
Margo

Baryonyx · 07-08-2002, 18:32

Well, my experiences with our wolfdog, Tyr (Ayak od Divisu), were the following:

1.) We began training him at two and a half months. He was a bit devious and mischievous
at first. He was, to be fair, difficult to get going, but not because he was untrainable,
but because he always figured out better solutions or workarounds to commands or games.
These dogs are, without a doubt, brilliant. I respected that about him, and catered to
his need to be "challenged." And he returned the favor by picking everything up quickly.

2.)We started with light training, on and off leash, and by 6 months had him in full
scale working dog training. He was so well trained at that point, he was moved from basic
classes to advanced classes by the trainer, who is a nationally known trainer. He so
loved Tyr and, in his words "his intelligence and trainability," he offered to buy him.
The trainer said "I can do so much with him. He could be a Schutzhund champion." When Tyr
came home from this trainer, he was, I am proud to say, almost flawless behavior-wise and
training-wise.

3.) It was not until the cancer began taking over large portions of his brain, and
affected his behavior centers that he had any difficulties with people or with training.
Had he not suffered from brain cancer, he would still be alive today, and still be the
loyal, well-trained dog he was as a puppy.

I hate to hear that these dogs are untrainable. If lions, tigers, whales, bears,
elephants, and the like are trainable, why would anyone feel that these dogs are not? I
feel that, to be sure, some dogs are harder to train than others, but this breed is NOT
untrainable. Indeed, Kamila and I worked very hard on training him, and spent a ton of
time with him (we could, since it was senior year of college) to ensure he was always
active. But, when we were "done" with his initial training, he was a well-trained dog, an
amazing companion.

Sincerely,
Chris Behrens

Pavel · 07-08-2002, 18:51

Quote:

I hate to hear that these dogs are untrainable. If lions, tigers, whales, bears,
elephants, and the like are trainable, why would anyone feel that these dogs are not? I
feel that, to be sure, some dogs are harder to train than others, but this breed is NOT
untrainable. Indeed, Kamila and I worked very hard on training him, and spent a ton of
time with him (we could, since it was senior year of college) to ensure he was always
active. But, when we were "done" with his initial training, he was a well-trained dog, an
amazing companion.

Chris wrote the basic true. Every dog is trainable, it was a reason to domesticate dogs from
people. Is logicaly, that different dogs race was breeding for different missions. And this
is reason, why any race is specific. Some are very easy trainable, for some is necessary to
found special methods and tricks. And opinion, that CsW is untrainable - please, think about
it ! The grandparents of all our CsWs were a really working dogs by army. And its not so far
the time, where any CsW in breed need a test certificate of versatility (trace, obedience,
defence). Momentaly situation is so, because the most owners (and its me sorry to say, but
mostly outside CZ) want to have Csw like a home friend only.
Country of origin CsW is Czechoslovakia. Before somebody valuate CsW like a breed, please
visit first some meeting or camp of CsW in our countries.

Pavel

BOULET · 07-08-2002, 21:11

hello
If we think about it togerther with sereral minds we must find a way
nath

mariagroot · 14-08-2002, 11:28

Ann,
nice article, I always wondered about the pulling and bottlefeeding
practice. Even more when you hear that sometimes pups are lost because of
improper feeding. When available nothing is better than mother milk.
Do you know of succesful cases of wolfs/wolfdogpups raised by normal dogs?
Thanks,
Maria

michaelundinaeichhorn · 25-08-2002, 20:48

Hello,
Dr. Erik Zimen did his research as far as I know on two groups - that were both
hand raised - wolfes and poodles. They did hand raise them because they didn´t
want the influence of their different mothers. The research and a lot of wolf
behaviour is dircribed very interesting in his book "the wolf". The reason why
you have to get them that early ist because they show flight reaction against
humans very early, as far as I can remember you have to get them around ten days.
It´s very likely that European wolfes are different in this problem, because the
selection by hunting humans went on so much longer. You almost never have sights
of European wild living wolfes like you have them in nothern america. Some of his
old wolfes still live in their enclosure in the national bavarian forrest not so
far away from our place. He did bottle-feed pups several more times and did
reintegrate them into enclosure wolfepacks. To everybodies astonishment everytime
he did so the puppies - up to 6 month of age- were immidiatly adopted by the
pack, he never saw any problems.In the enclosure in the Schorfheide we had the
opportunity to visit some one year old wolfes in their new pack that we had seen
at his place with two weeks of age the year before, they were totally integrated
into the pack.But Erik will tell you too that there is almost no case were you
could keep an fully adult euopean wolf as an companion close to you, the only
wolf he could keep as an adult with his family was one male, who got risky the
moment he became leader of the wolfpack and got nice again when he lost this
position. But this were wolfes who were allowed to live a quite normal life, they
just wanted to see the different development of behaviour in wolfes and dogs.

The milk quality shouldn´t be the problem between wolfe and dogs,I think it is
mostly identical, but a dograised wolfe won´t become a dog when it is adult,
when it is working out best he is a human socialised, tamed wolfe.
I would be personally very interested in how many CSW that have been bottleraised
and been extremly bonded to humans can be left alone in their home without
problems, because the most "Canine home alone" problems in our dogschool we see
in dogs with an extremly strong bond to their owners that are kept like children
that have to be protected and that don´t learn to handle frustration when they
have been small (as Ann so very well described).

07-08-2002, 18:32	#2
Baryonyx Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4	Not suitable to the training? (Please help) Well, my experiences with our wolfdog, Tyr (Ayak od Divisu), were the following: 1.) We began training him at two and a half months. He was a bit devious and mischievous at first. He was, to be fair, difficult to get going, but not because he was untrainable, but because he always figured out better solutions or workarounds to commands or games. These dogs are, without a doubt, brilliant. I respected that about him, and catered to his need to be "challenged." And he returned the favor by picking everything up quickly. 2.)We started with light training, on and off leash, and by 6 months had him in full scale working dog training. He was so well trained at that point, he was moved from basic classes to advanced classes by the trainer, who is a nationally known trainer. He so loved Tyr and, in his words "his intelligence and trainability," he offered to buy him. The trainer said "I can do so much with him. He could be a Schutzhund champion." When Tyr came home from this trainer, he was, I am proud to say, almost flawless behavior-wise and training-wise. 3.) It was not until the cancer began taking over large portions of his brain, and affected his behavior centers that he had any difficulties with people or with training. Had he not suffered from brain cancer, he would still be alive today, and still be the loyal, well-trained dog he was as a puppy. I hate to hear that these dogs are untrainable. If lions, tigers, whales, bears, elephants, and the like are trainable, why would anyone feel that these dogs are not? I feel that, to be sure, some dogs are harder to train than others, but this breed is NOT untrainable. Indeed, Kamila and I worked very hard on training him, and spent a ton of time with him (we could, since it was senior year of college) to ensure he was always active. But, when we were "done" with his initial training, he was a well-trained dog, an amazing companion. Sincerely, Chris Behrens

07-08-2002, 21:11	#4
BOULET Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 8	Not suitable to the training? hello If we think about it togerther with sereral minds we must find a way nath

14-08-2002, 11:28	#5
mariagroot Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Utrecht Posts: 5	Not suitable to the training? Ann, nice article, I always wondered about the pulling and bottlefeeding practice. Even more when you hear that sometimes pups are lost because of improper feeding. When available nothing is better than mother milk. Do you know of succesful cases of wolfs/wolfdogpups raised by normal dogs? Thanks, Maria

25-08-2002, 20:48	#6
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Not suitable to the training? Hello, Dr. Erik Zimen did his research as far as I know on two groups - that were both hand raised - wolfes and poodles. They did hand raise them because they didn´t want the influence of their different mothers. The research and a lot of wolf behaviour is dircribed very interesting in his book "the wolf". The reason why you have to get them that early ist because they show flight reaction against humans very early, as far as I can remember you have to get them around ten days. It´s very likely that European wolfes are different in this problem, because the selection by hunting humans went on so much longer. You almost never have sights of European wild living wolfes like you have them in nothern america. Some of his old wolfes still live in their enclosure in the national bavarian forrest not so far away from our place. He did bottle-feed pups several more times and did reintegrate them into enclosure wolfepacks. To everybodies astonishment everytime he did so the puppies - up to 6 month of age- were immidiatly adopted by the pack, he never saw any problems.In the enclosure in the Schorfheide we had the opportunity to visit some one year old wolfes in their new pack that we had seen at his place with two weeks of age the year before, they were totally integrated into the pack.But Erik will tell you too that there is almost no case were you could keep an fully adult euopean wolf as an companion close to you, the only wolf he could keep as an adult with his family was one male, who got risky the moment he became leader of the wolfpack and got nice again when he lost this position. But this were wolfes who were allowed to live a quite normal life, they just wanted to see the different development of behaviour in wolfes and dogs. The milk quality shouldn´t be the problem between wolfe and dogs,I think it is mostly identical, but a dograised wolfe won´t become a dog when it is adult, when it is working out best he is a human socialised, tamed wolfe. I would be personally very interested in how many CSW that have been bottleraised and been extremly bonded to humans can be left alone in their home without problems, because the most "Canine home alone" problems in our dogschool we see in dogs with an extremly strong bond to their owners that are kept like children that have to be protected and that don´t learn to handle frustration when they have been small (as Ann so very well described).