Black Mask (?)

Nebulosa · 15-11-2005, 22:19

In the standard of the breed it says that it is penalty(defect) lacks in masks, citing as example one mask badly marked.

My doubt is:

If they mask badly marked is a defect that varies gravity seeing has the mask, then, masks black color (as of the German Shepherd) would be desclassifiqued, a serious defect or only one led lack?
(Since in the standard it does not speak nothing to accept it masks closed and whit black color

).

Greetings

Paula H.Pandolfo

Dharkwolf · 15-11-2005, 23:11

Problems with the mask are a defect in CSW – the standard clearly says that having a barely pronounced mask is a fault.

This is a fault – not a disqualifying fault! You can certainly work and breed a dog with a weak mask, though not ideal there are many reasons to do this, if the dog has other desirable characteristics – It is very rare to find a “perfect” wolfdog. (Even if someone found a perfect wolfdog, someone else would not agree it was perfect…)

There are two possible faults with the mask. One is the so-called black mask, where the mask of the dog is poorly defined because the muzzle is too dark (ie similar to a German shepherd) this is probably one of the most common faults amongst CSW. It is not generally considered serious (unless the muzzle is pitch black!) but such a dog would be unlikely to obtain good results in dog shows, especially in the countries of origin.

A second, rather less common fault with the mask is from dogs that have a mask that is too white – and again is poorly defined. This is rather rare though I have seen some dogs that could be considered to have a weak mask because their muzzle was simply too lightly coloured.

The two bonitation codes associated with mask problems are M2 (without mask) and M5 (not expressive mask) note that neither of them refer to the mask being white or black – just being adequate or not.

The mask in wolves is both a means of expression (it needs to be defined) but also as a means of camouflage (the colours need to blend, and not form sharp lines) this is really what is most desirable in the CSWs as well.

You may want to look at this article for more information on the bonitation codes, very informative as to what is judged in a wolfdog.

J.

taro · 17-11-2005, 20:15

Hello. My message is specially adressed to Nebulosa and of course to all those who may find it interesting. The thing is that I've had the same doubt about a very dark mask resembling a German Shepherd sometime .My CZW also has a very dark mask that I haven't seen in practically any other Czekoslovakian wolfdog. The big majority of wolfdogs that I know, specially the Italian lines, have very light muzzles, I don't mean the mask ok? So that makes me think that my wolfdog may not be as "correct" as others in dog shows. I will thank any commentaire. By the way my dog is O-Taro od Uhoste if you want to have a look

Nebulosa · 17-11-2005, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by taro

Hello. My message is specially adressed to Nebulosa and of course to all those who may find it interesting. The thing is that I've had the same doubt about a very dark mask resembling a German Shepherd sometime .My CZW also has a very dark mask that I haven't seen in practically any other Czekoslovakian wolfdog. The big majority of wolfdogs that I know, specially the Italian lines, have very light muzzles, I don't mean the mask ok? So that makes me think that my wolfdog may not be as "correct" as others in dog shows. I will thank any commentaire. By the way my dog is O-Taro od Uhoste if you want to have a look

If you to look for in the "DataBase" go to see that it has more dogs with the same mask O-Taro. Also I noticed that the CzWs of the italian has clearer colors, I believe that it can have to the climate, but exactly thus do not defect to the standards therefore from the one to perceive well masks it, exactly bakes being one light grey.

Mirkawolf · 17-11-2005, 22:58

Taro, I think you should better address with these questions your breeder, and if that cannot be done, then maybe some experienced CSW owners or breeders.
I have nothing against Nebulosa, but hey, she never had CSW and probably never seen one "live". Therefore I think she can hardly judge the CSW standard, character etc.

Dharkwolf · 17-11-2005, 23:27

About these masks ...

A light grey mask is certainly not a good mask - a mask like this will be poorly defined.

Having a well defined mask means that you have to have just the right degradation from the colour of the upper muzzle through white and to the black of the lips (while I don't think pink lips are specifically stated as a defect in the standard most people will agree that a CSW with pink lips is certainly not very typical - or desireable)

You have to understand that a mask is not a colour or even a shape, though both of those features play a role - the mask is actually an effect. Does the face of the dog have the capacity for expression while at the same time mantaining its natural camouflage? If yes then you have a dog with a good mask. Colour and shape are part of the explanation but neither colour nor shape alone explain the mask.

Nebulosa · 18-11-2005, 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Taro, I think you should better address with these questions your breeder, and if that cannot be done, then maybe some experienced CSW owners or breeders.
I have nothing against Nebulosa, but hey, she never had CSW and probably never seen one "live". Therefore I think she can hardly judge the CSW standard, character etc.

Standard no much, because have much good photos in Wolfdog.org , but caracter yes, in "live" i only know hibrids (and much strange hibrids) "canadian wolfsXgermann sheepheard", "Guará wolf X dog" and "Graxain X dog"...
I not belive that CzW have more strange caracter than hibrid GuaráXdog

I only know the CzW caracter for what I read in this fórum and in the sites of the breeders of the breed.... no exist CzW in South America.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 18-11-2005, 09:10

There has been a discussion on the German site some time ago where Margo showed very good examples for the bonitation codes http://www.wolfdog.org/php/index.php...ewtopic&t=2200
The red line is a perfect mask (no code in the boniation code). The green one is M5 ( no good mask, the bonitation code shouldn´t be better than P3) . The lilac one means no mask M2 (shouldn´t get better than P5).
Some young dogs have M5 masks that become correct masks when they are older.
If you look at the offspring you will find that a M2 mask is quite dominant in heritage.

Regards Ina

Mirkawolf · 18-11-2005, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Standard no much, because have much good photos in Wolfdog.org

I bet you´d be surprised, how some wolfdogs, that look great on photos, are quite ugly in real and opposite. A good photographer will make excellent photos of every dog, making even ugly dog to look like a beauty champion. And opposite, photoamateur taking pictures of his dog with cheap digital compact can manage to produce such pictures, that you think the wolfdog must be retarded both in body and mind

Not to forget to mention, Photoshop can be mighty helper

Don´t trust everything, you see..

Nebulosa · 18-11-2005, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Standard no much, because have much good photos in Wolfdog.org

I bet you´d be surprised, how some wolfdogs, that look great on photos, are quite ugly in real and opposite. A good photographer will make excellent photos of every dog, making even ugly dog to look like a beauty champion. And opposite, photoamateur taking pictures of his dog with cheap digital compact can manage to produce such pictures, that you think the wolfdog must be retarded both in body and mind

Not to forget to mention, Photoshop can be mighty helper

Don´t trust everything, you see..

Of course!
but to study the standard of the breed this does not arrive to be a problem (for study the standard), the same problem is the photos badly taken off, where excellent dogs are ugly in photos, but exactly thus already of the one to evaluate some thing.
But does not exist better than to evaluate to the "Live".

But who does not have dog hunts with cat.

The bonitation, HD results and pedigree is one big help too

This explanation was perfect!

Tanks!

15-11-2005, 22:19	#1
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Black Mask (?) In the standard of the breed it says that it is penalty(defect) lacks in masks, citing as example one mask badly marked. My doubt is: If they mask badly marked is a defect that varies gravity seeing has the mask, then, masks black color (as of the German Shepherd) would be desclassifiqued, a serious defect or only one led lack? (Since in the standard it does not speak nothing to accept it masks closed and whit black color ). Greetings Paula H.Pandolfo

17-11-2005, 22:58	#5
Mirkawolf Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 556	Taro, I think you should better address with these questions your breeder, and if that cannot be done, then maybe some experienced CSW owners or breeders. I have nothing against Nebulosa, but hey, she never had CSW and probably never seen one "live". Therefore I think she can hardly judge the CSW standard, character etc. __________________ :: :: :: Cira & Ali & Tulip :: :: :: http://vlcisen.mirkawolf.com

15-11-2005, 23:11	#2
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	Problems with the mask are a defect in CSW – the standard clearly says that having a barely pronounced mask is a fault. This is a fault – not a disqualifying fault! You can certainly work and breed a dog with a weak mask, though not ideal there are many reasons to do this, if the dog has other desirable characteristics – It is very rare to find a “perfect” wolfdog. (Even if someone found a perfect wolfdog, someone else would not agree it was perfect…) There are two possible faults with the mask. One is the so-called black mask, where the mask of the dog is poorly defined because the muzzle is too dark (ie similar to a German shepherd) this is probably one of the most common faults amongst CSW. It is not generally considered serious (unless the muzzle is pitch black!) but such a dog would be unlikely to obtain good results in dog shows, especially in the countries of origin. A second, rather less common fault with the mask is from dogs that have a mask that is too white – and again is poorly defined. This is rather rare though I have seen some dogs that could be considered to have a weak mask because their muzzle was simply too lightly coloured. The two bonitation codes associated with mask problems are M2 (without mask) and M5 (not expressive mask) note that neither of them refer to the mask being white or black – just being adequate or not. The mask in wolves is both a means of expression (it needs to be defined) but also as a means of camouflage (the colours need to blend, and not form sharp lines) this is really what is most desirable in the CSWs as well. You may want to look at this article for more information on the bonitation codes, very informative as to what is judged in a wolfdog. J.

17-11-2005, 20:15	#3
taro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Barcelona Posts: 17	Hello. My message is specially adressed to Nebulosa and of course to all those who may find it interesting. The thing is that I've had the same doubt about a very dark mask resembling a German Shepherd sometime .My CZW also has a very dark mask that I haven't seen in practically any other Czekoslovakian wolfdog. The big majority of wolfdogs that I know, specially the Italian lines, have very light muzzles, I don't mean the mask ok? So that makes me think that my wolfdog may not be as "correct" as others in dog shows. I will thank any commentaire. By the way my dog is O-Taro od Uhoste if you want to have a look

17-11-2005, 23:27	#6
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	About these masks ... A light grey mask is certainly not a good mask - a mask like this will be poorly defined. Having a well defined mask means that you have to have just the right degradation from the colour of the upper muzzle through white and to the black of the lips (while I don't think pink lips are specifically stated as a defect in the standard most people will agree that a CSW with pink lips is certainly not very typical - or desireable) You have to understand that a mask is not a colour or even a shape, though both of those features play a role - the mask is actually an effect. Does the face of the dog have the capacity for expression while at the same time mantaining its natural camouflage? If yes then you have a dog with a good mask. Colour and shape are part of the explanation but neither colour nor shape alone explain the mask.

18-11-2005, 09:10	#8
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	There has been a discussion on the German site some time ago where Margo showed very good examples for the bonitation codes http://www.wolfdog.org/php/index.php...ewtopic&t=2200 The red line is a perfect mask (no code in the boniation code). The green one is M5 ( no good mask, the bonitation code shouldn´t be better than P3) . The lilac one means no mask M2 (shouldn´t get better than P5). Some young dogs have M5 masks that become correct masks when they are older. If you look at the offspring you will find that a M2 mask is quite dominant in heritage. Regards Ina