My Worst Nightmare

Shadowlands · 30-01-2013, 12:43

On 14.01.13, I had a message from the owner of one of our puppies (Shadowlands Bulgaria Braveheart) in the UK to say that he was staying with a friend of hers until she decided what to do. She said he had shown aggression towards her other dog. I asked her to tell me where he was, but had no reply. 2 days later, I was told that he was with Andre Tanner (Wolfzone). I wrote to her and asked what the situation was. She responded to say that he had shown aggression on his first night but that had settled very well since and played happily with a dominant male of hers (not sure what breed), and had since accepted the dog he was originally aggressive towards. She also stated that he was not showing any of the behaviours complained of by the ‘owner’ and that he had been badly undersocialised. I was happy to hear that he had settled. Unfortunately, she went on to say that she now considered him to be her property and that she would use him in her breeding programmes in the future (cross breeding, wolf-hybrid etc), even saying she knew the terms of our original contract (therefore consciously ignoring them). Obviously I was not happy with this. On 19.01.13, I wrote to the original ‘owner’ and told her that she knew this went against the terms of our puppy contract and that she should inform Ms. Tanner that I would be sending someone to collect Braveheart and that she was to give him up. The response was a clear ‘no’ and that I was not to contact her again...

After seeing Ms Tanner had posted photos of her ‘’new Czech Male’’ on Facebook and posted him on her website as a stud male, my partner wrote to her on 22.01.13 stating that he was not her property and that we wanted him back and that, if she didn’t comply, we would seek redress through the courts. The response to this came from Ronnie Winder! He stated he was co owner of Braveheart and, amongst a lot of rambling, threatened us if we tried to take him back.

We will not leave any stone unturned trying to get him back but I wanted to make this public so that all other breeders could see what can happen in the UK. I made a terrible error in judgement in allowing the pup to go to this woman in the first place, who became a different person once she had possession. I would urge any breeder considering sending any pup to the UK to ensure that the ownership and pedigree registration remain in joint names with the owner until such times as the breed is KC recognised as well as adding a clause in the contract whereby any use of their dog in cross breeding (by the original owner or by anyone they pass the dog onto) is liable to a large fine. Honest owners will have no problem in signing contracts with these clauses as they will never have any intention of breaking it, but it will give you, the breeder, some peace of mind.

Sadly the UK has a long way to go until it is a stable country for our breed. There are too many unsavoury characters there who only view the dogs as money making objects. There are, also, a lot of genuine breed lovers there who only want the best for their dogs, present or to be and we need to be supporting these people as much as we can (but protecting ourselves and our dogs too).

Rona · 31-01-2013, 00:08

I'm really sorry, Christine. I can imagine what you must be feeling...

Shadowlands · 31-01-2013, 09:50

I would also like to add to this that, until the United Kingdom Kennel Club officially recognises the breed, no progeny born in the UK will be eligible for a pedigree. It makes no difference whether the parents are FCI registered or not. Only pups born AFTER recognition will be able to be registered and recognised.

Tassle · 31-01-2013, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm really sorry, Christine. I can imagine what you must be feeling...

Agreed. Disgusting behavior.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-01-2013, 16:22

Sorry to hear this. I had a puppy buyer break a contract before. They seemed so lovely and knowledgable, only to turn around and do the opposite of everything they said.

I did get the dog back. Unfortunately permanently injured.

It broke my heart as the dog was the sweetest natured girl.

I hope you get the dog back and all is well.

yukidomari · 31-01-2013, 20:30

Can you explain who is Andre Tanner/Wolfzone? A puppy mill? Mix breeder? Sometimes breeds purebred non-registered Czechoslovakian Vlcaks?

And the name of the original owner is not important? or maybe she will attempt to get another CsV to broker, too?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-01-2013, 21:35

Ronnie Wilder ist well known here and I think still blocked due to their behaviour:http://ukwolfdogs.com/home_0.html former known as kennel Pacino
Wolfzone was as far as I remember cooperating with them or breeding together http://www.wolfzone.info/

Both are breeding hybrids and (?) purebreds. Pacino was very much involved with de Louba Tar till everthing changed 180%

Ina

Rona · 31-01-2013, 22:00

They call Braveheart by the name of Moon and advertise him as a stud. He's just one year old (!) and hasn't had his HD test taken yet.

Seems "British Wolfdogs" (whatever they are?) are bred from HD untested parents!

Shadowlands · 01-02-2013, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Can you explain who is Andre Tanner/Wolfzone? A puppy mill? Mix breeder? Sometimes breeds purebred non-registered Czechoslovakian Vlcaks?

And the name of the original owner is not important? or maybe she will attempt to get another CsV to broker, too?

The original owner's name is Tessa Brown - she has set her eyes on a wolf hybrid now it seems...

Andre Tanner breeds under the name of Wolfzone for her CsV, CsV and saarloos mixes (not necessarily the 2 together...) and her wolf hybrids. She also breeds all sorts (yorkies, labs, laradoodles etc) under the name of Shoshone Kennels. Draw your own conclusions...

Rona · 01-02-2013, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Andre Tanner breeds under the name of Wolfzone for her CsV, CsV and saarloos mixes (not necessarily the 2 together...) and her wolf hybrids. She also breeds all sorts (yorkies, labs, laradoodles etc) under the name of Shoshone Kennels. Draw your own conclusions...

Labcaks? yorkcaks?, wolfoodles?

Sorry, I know it's not funny, just couldn't resist...

I used to live in the UK and have always thought British cynology was of the highest quality and the social awarenss of animal welfare worth serving as a model everywhere else!
So it's a kind of a shock for me to discover these "puppy makers" are able to find enough buyers for the result of her "experiments"! Aren't people in the UK aware it's much cheaper and more humanitarian to adopt equally "mixed" pups from animal shelters than to pay for them and sponsor the pseudokennels?

avgrunn · 01-02-2013, 13:29

Rona, its the same everywhere, people want to have something special, unique, so wolfdogs, hybrids or vlcaks that resemble a wolf will always draw attenion and thus will always be popular. The same with all those mixes like labradors with poodles

Mikael · 05-02-2013, 20:55

Hmmm,,,

Sorry if I´m a bit slow,,, but what contrakt was broken ???

Did not the girl give the dog to Wolfzone ???

Did it say in the contrakt that you was Co owner of the dog or that she had to return the puppy if any problem did show up ???

Best regards / Mikael

yukidomari · 15-02-2013, 05:00

at the firm i'm at, i can ask one of our satellite UK attorneys if they've got advice or can give you a friendly referral or so.

at the least if you can't get your property (dog) back, you can at least get what you're due money-wise back. maybe she can be required to show proof of payment in form of bank stub, money transfer or so.. by that i mean lack of such.

Rona · 15-02-2013, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

at the least if you can't get your property (dog) back, you can at least get what you're due money-wise back. maybe she can be required to show proof of payment in form of bank stub, money transfer or so.. by that i mean lack of such.

Were there any penalty clauses in the contract, Christine?

It would be good if somebody (a lawyer?) posted a draft of a model contract in which owners like Tessa B. would find it cheaper to return the dog than face the court and risk paying e.g. 20.000 GBP compensation

Shadowlands · 15-02-2013, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Were there any penalty clauses in the contract, Christine?

Sadly not

As I said before, a lot of lessons have been learnt the hard way... I will not be so naive and trusting in future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

It would be good if somebody (a lawyer?) posted a draft of a model contract in which owners like Tessa B. would find it cheaper to return the dog than face the court and risk paying e.g. 20.000 GBP compensation

That would be wonderful if it were possible (would any of your contacts be able to advise on this, Yukidomari?)

Tassle · 16-02-2013, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Sadly not

As I said before, a lot of lessons have been learnt the hard way... I will not be so naive and trusting in future.

So sad that your trust was so abused. Hopefully a lesson other breeders can learn from as well

(((hugs)))

pixie · 26-02-2013, 16:12

Is there any news on whats happening yet

Tazer · 03-05-2013, 12:23

So, if this dog has such an atrocious temperament, has been and still is? Such hard work, what ethical person would consider breeding from him and risk passing the traits on? After all, temperament isn't all environment.
I own a dog of the live stock guarding type known to be stubborn, independent and obviously guardy, he'll guard when let off lead, he's turning into a proficient watchdog... Research told me he was unlikely to behave like a stereotypical Labrador and that's not what I wanted.
Even the most basic breed descriptions of the CSV, makes a point of stating that they can be challenging, and males especially, so frankly, I don't know what else was expected?
Perhaps there was an underestimation of the level of challenge and perhaps the breeder believed that wasn't the case, at least the breeder is trying to fix the error.

Taz

Shoshone · 03-05-2013, 14:26

I own a number of csv's including Moon and as i emailed the breeder and TOLD HER CLEARLY Moon is HD tested and he has a very good score.

Tassle · 03-05-2013, 14:35

So all these temperament issues that you yourself have stated he had, and his previous owner said he had mean nothing? As long as he has good hips??

Either a) you are both exaggerating his behaviour - or b) you care nothing for temperament in your breeding program.

30-01-2013, 12:43	#1
Shadowlands Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vidin Posts: 391	My Worst Nightmare On 14.01.13, I had a message from the owner of one of our puppies (Shadowlands Bulgaria Braveheart) in the UK to say that he was staying with a friend of hers until she decided what to do. She said he had shown aggression towards her other dog. I asked her to tell me where he was, but had no reply. 2 days later, I was told that he was with Andre Tanner (Wolfzone). I wrote to her and asked what the situation was. She responded to say that he had shown aggression on his first night but that had settled very well since and played happily with a dominant male of hers (not sure what breed), and had since accepted the dog he was originally aggressive towards. She also stated that he was not showing any of the behaviours complained of by the ‘owner’ and that he had been badly undersocialised. I was happy to hear that he had settled. Unfortunately, she went on to say that she now considered him to be her property and that she would use him in her breeding programmes in the future (cross breeding, wolf-hybrid etc), even saying she knew the terms of our original contract (therefore consciously ignoring them). Obviously I was not happy with this. On 19.01.13, I wrote to the original ‘owner’ and told her that she knew this went against the terms of our puppy contract and that she should inform Ms. Tanner that I would be sending someone to collect Braveheart and that she was to give him up. The response was a clear ‘no’ and that I was not to contact her again... After seeing Ms Tanner had posted photos of her ‘’new Czech Male’’ on Facebook and posted him on her website as a stud male, my partner wrote to her on 22.01.13 stating that he was not her property and that we wanted him back and that, if she didn’t comply, we would seek redress through the courts. The response to this came from Ronnie Winder! He stated he was co owner of Braveheart and, amongst a lot of rambling, threatened us if we tried to take him back. We will not leave any stone unturned trying to get him back but I wanted to make this public so that all other breeders could see what can happen in the UK. I made a terrible error in judgement in allowing the pup to go to this woman in the first place, who became a different person once she had possession. I would urge any breeder considering sending any pup to the UK to ensure that the ownership and pedigree registration remain in joint names with the owner until such times as the breed is KC recognised as well as adding a clause in the contract whereby any use of their dog in cross breeding (by the original owner or by anyone they pass the dog onto) is liable to a large fine. Honest owners will have no problem in signing contracts with these clauses as they will never have any intention of breaking it, but it will give you, the breeder, some peace of mind. Sadly the UK has a long way to go until it is a stable country for our breed. There are too many unsavoury characters there who only view the dogs as money making objects. There are, also, a lot of genuine breed lovers there who only want the best for their dogs, present or to be and we need to be supporting these people as much as we can (but protecting ourselves and our dogs too).

31-01-2013, 00:08	#2
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I'm really sorry, Christine. I can imagine what you must be feeling... __________________

31-01-2013, 20:30	#6
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Can you explain who is Andre Tanner/Wolfzone? A puppy mill? Mix breeder? Sometimes breeds purebred non-registered Czechoslovakian Vlcaks? And the name of the original owner is not important? or maybe she will attempt to get another CsV to broker, too? __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

31-01-2013, 22:00	#8
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	They call Braveheart by the name of Moon and advertise him as a stud. He's just one year old (!) and hasn't had his HD test taken yet. Seems "British Wolfdogs" (whatever they are?) are bred from HD untested parents! __________________

01-02-2013, 13:29	#11
avgrunn Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Trójmiasto Posts: 1,756	Rona, its the same everywhere, people want to have something special, unique, so wolfdogs, hybrids or vlcaks that resemble a wolf will always draw attenion and thus will always be popular. The same with all those mixes like labradors with poodles __________________ Ja & Urciowaty

31-01-2013, 09:50	#3
Shadowlands Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vidin Posts: 391	I would also like to add to this that, until the United Kingdom Kennel Club officially recognises the breed, no progeny born in the UK will be eligible for a pedigree. It makes no difference whether the parents are FCI registered or not. Only pups born AFTER recognition will be able to be registered and recognised.

31-01-2013, 16:22	#5
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Sorry to hear this. I had a puppy buyer break a contract before. They seemed so lovely and knowledgable, only to turn around and do the opposite of everything they said. I did get the dog back. Unfortunately permanently injured. It broke my heart as the dog was the sweetest natured girl. I hope you get the dog back and all is well.

31-01-2013, 21:35	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Ronnie Wilder ist well known here and I think still blocked due to their behaviour:http://ukwolfdogs.com/home_0.html former known as kennel Pacino Wolfzone was as far as I remember cooperating with them or breeding together http://www.wolfzone.info/ Both are breeding hybrids and (?) purebreds. Pacino was very much involved with de Louba Tar till everthing changed 180% Ina

05-02-2013, 20:55	#12
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	Hmmm,,, Sorry if I´m a bit slow,,, but what contrakt was broken ??? Did not the girl give the dog to Wolfzone ??? Did it say in the contrakt that you was Co owner of the dog or that she had to return the puppy if any problem did show up ??? Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

15-02-2013, 05:00	#13
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	at the firm i'm at, i can ask one of our satellite UK attorneys if they've got advice or can give you a friendly referral or so. at the least if you can't get your property (dog) back, you can at least get what you're due money-wise back. maybe she can be required to show proof of payment in form of bank stub, money transfer or so.. by that i mean lack of such. __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

26-02-2013, 16:12	#17
pixie Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 89	Is there any news on whats happening yet

03-05-2013, 12:23	#18
Tazer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 77	So, if this dog has such an atrocious temperament, has been and still is? Such hard work, what ethical person would consider breeding from him and risk passing the traits on? After all, temperament isn't all environment. I own a dog of the live stock guarding type known to be stubborn, independent and obviously guardy, he'll guard when let off lead, he's turning into a proficient watchdog... Research told me he was unlikely to behave like a stereotypical Labrador and that's not what I wanted. Even the most basic breed descriptions of the CSV, makes a point of stating that they can be challenging, and males especially, so frankly, I don't know what else was expected? Perhaps there was an underestimation of the level of challenge and perhaps the breeder believed that wasn't the case, at least the breeder is trying to fix the error. Taz __________________ Never argue with idiots. they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

03-05-2013, 14:26	#19
Shoshone Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Devon uk Posts: 5	Moon I own a number of csv's including Moon and as i emailed the breeder and TOLD HER CLEARLY Moon is HD tested and he has a very good score.

03-05-2013, 14:35	#20
Tassle Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall Posts: 137	So all these temperament issues that you yourself have stated he had, and his previous owner said he had mean nothing? As long as he has good hips?? Either a) you are both exaggerating his behaviour - or b) you care nothing for temperament in your breeding program.