Mixes in 'La Louve Blanche' kennel?
 

i read you write in your country breeder register mixes. but i hear you breeder not register mixes but also breed with false parents and puppies look different line parents. why you not make DNA test for all breeders? I read about mixes in de Louba tar. I show you in last post mixes in France from mixed parents from italian line and my friends say in france are more breeder with mixes. Margo write mix look like more husky or like Sangria and italian breeder find dog from france who is not purebreed. you know something about it?
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/10290.jpg
you see it is husky goggles and not czech wolfdog mask and dog look like Sangria brother or saarloos/husky.

But i think there are more false dogs in france. my friends show me photos and i show it you. look litter merlin and ossa. in first litter you see normal wolfdog like parents

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/8390.jpg

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/8385.jpg

in not see blazy but blue is small like crying wolf dogs. but i hear second litter with same parents is very much different. very much huge - more like normal czech wolfdog and also look different http://www.wolfdog.org/de/gallery/cat/1/0/9967/
http://dl.wolfdog.org/g/6/69683.jpg

you see dog is not from same parents. i not see photos of other dogs from same litter but i see it by my friends and all dogs are different. my friends asked ENCI how we can check if dogs are real czech wolfdog but ENCI told we must use italian club. and we can not use italian club because main officials in our club have or breed mixes too and will not help. do you can make something in france to see if it is real. you make DNA test for de Louba tar so maybe you can make test for it litter too? because for us it is new mixes litter

Hmmm Lupis, Elf. You have only one reason. Buy pups only from kennels, where (you think) is all correct. Because dog associations in some countries does not work and countries of origin can do nothing if theese dogs have cz.wolfdog pedigree.....

The best of all this is that you can see dogs like that winning pure dogs at dogshows, even with well know judges.
This takes away any of the little credibility dogshows can have with our breed.

more question because i see something strange in database. how big is normal wolfdog litter? i hear from breeders normal is 5-8. and i check crying wolf litter and all have normal size - from 2 till 8 puppies. and i see french litter i wrote before and breeder use dogs from crying wolf but all liters are very much big. most small one is with 8 puppies and biggest is with 14 puppies. do you know litter with 14 puppies because people (CLC breeders) say it is not possible because 11 is maximum puppies in CLC. they say huge litter is normal for "outcross" it means if you use dog of other breed.

The biggest litter I have ever seen was a 16 puppies born from a Brazilian Mastiff, a really huge female, I think will be really rare a wolfdog gave birth to more than 12 puppies in one litter.
Outcrossing will have more puppies than a inbreeding or line breeding, but in CzW we don't have real outcrossings, so, this would never happen, only if we open the bloodline with new dogs... or mixes, all dogs have minimally a huge linebreeding in Rep Z PS, that's why imbreedings like happen in other more poppular breeds is almost forbiden, it's too dangerous.
But, even like that 14 puppies is in my point of view too much for a wolfdog, is even a huge litter for a mastiff.
Independant of how good is the litter control, will be ever pretty easy to put puppies from different litter in a small litter and register as pure dogs with the parents of the small litter, and so, make a false pedigree of "pure dogs" in mixes... I dream one day people wil need call a vet for colect blood of each puppie in the litter for make a DNA test... and even like that will be possible cheat.

Cross breeds
 

Just have a look at the data of Ossa:

9 B descendants
9 C descendants
14 D descendants

If it´s not true it should be corrected.

hi angelika .. it will be great to change it .. sure .. and know in same time who send this information ... not me in this case .. but .. if some peolpe like spend time ... :p best regards .. frank

for information .. "d" litter 10 pupps ...

By the way I really don't think they will acept and put online a information about a new litter wich haven't been sended by the breeder like that.
Nor even that they would put wrong the number of puppies. :roll:

ok paula;-) .... y send a mail to margo ;... but y m so curious to know WHO ploay to send bad info litter on my kennel .. strange not????:roll:

do yu have this sort of information?? margo know not???(it's necessary have name to send info not?)

Frank, it would be fine if you have a look at all data of your kennel. There are a lot of C-descendants and more than 40 (!!) D-descendants.

Perhaps you´ve made this chaos yourself by announcing first the number of the puppies and later on the names??

hi angelika .. yes y note all database are wrong .."c" and "d "litter have not exact reference (parents .. owners etc ..) y ever send some mail to wolfdog to change it but allways same mistakes .. if yu prefer y can send yu all informations on .. and yu do transformation ... what do yu think ?...best regards

but these D dogs are different litters, in France some breeders put the letter of the litter name according the year, so, you will have a B year, a D year and so on. ;-)

Sorry, Frank, I´m without any influence on the database. Perhaps Paula or Fabrice can help.

Paula .. my litters is french register's letter(LOF)...2006 is "B" .........2007 is C.... 2008 is D ... and 2009 is E.....2010 is F ...etc ..... y give allways to margo how mutch pupps are born ... and yes after name and owner ... it's true .. BUT not yet for last ossa litter... y ' m so curious to know "the responsable" to this last mistake.. :shock::shock::shock:

Yes, Paula, but this kennel has about 24 or 25 D dogs with 3 mothers, not 40 :rock_3 :)

HEYYYY LUPIS !!! how are yu??? y don't note yur last topic on my dogs .... hum:rock_3:rock_3:rock_3 thanks a lot if yu show them and open discussion on .. very good publicity for my kennel .:p:p:p:p. well just for yu .. yu have doubts for blazy and blue .. not twinn sure .. but go to boheme on database and see more same type (compare female with female and male with male please for morphotype) .. well for c 'pouchka sure she 's darker ... but do yu see Balrog from first litter ??? for clearly coat yu can see ckinai and cyrcee (same than blasy/blue/boheme)... . just a question do yu know enigmatik and genetik in a new breed in construction??? but if yu want .. yu can visit me in france and do all ADN test yu want .. y m so happy to help yu ... :lol:!! BUt if yu couldn't prove anything y hope yu give me a lot of money for my time spend near yu :lol::lol:... For the end :say hi !!!to yur friend who speak about me with you ... y m so glad to note my work is in yur discussion .... for dream 'wolf yu have devil grey /demoniak diamond and darween in same litter ....all different BUT so so wolfish and so so nice .... y forget to say ... yu know what .. y have 100 wolwes in my garden in Paris and y do mariage with them ... all color yu want .. red /black/green / pink..etc .. witch one yu need .... ????:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: best regards ;.. yur friend frank

Frankie, C`Pouchka, nice looking, but I can not understand too, that Merlin und Ossa should be the parents...?! I remember I think it was a good 1 1/2 year ago maybe a bit more, that you did publish in french homepage for selling dogs the first litter from Merlin and Ossa. But the funny thing was that you took pictures from american wolfdogs with brown coat like C´´Pouchka has and white mask from wolf. It has been hybrids but not Merlin and Ossa. And some people ask you and you remember what, it took 1 day and you took the pictures from the net and did not answer the questions what kind of dogs these were. I think there is here in english forum a thread. If I have time I will search. And when I see now C´Pouchka for me she looks like not Merlin was father but one of these hybrids. What do you say?

I remember talking to some people who saw you with your dogs at the end of june in germany and they told me these were not csw. Funny is that one of these people were Michael Eichhorn who now took Blue for breeding his Falin. He told me that the C-litter could not have the same parents. And if I see here this pic from C´Pouchka, no I think too, different parent.

Christian

owner of the sister to Merlin, Myla Crying Wolf

I just notice that the thread is right on top Frankies kennel and I wrote on 21.1.2007. But it was another pic with two hybrids standing right beside a hut. Not the mother with new puppies.

Christian

hi christian .. yes y remember yu :)...how are yu ?.... y know that c'pouchka is darker than blue or blazy but in "B" litter y have 1 male dark too(balrog )and ...ckinai in same litter is clearly and is the brother(go to database to see) .. yu cando test blood dna ..if yu want ... just before this topic lupis say y have husky blood and saarloos blood and now yu say y have usa hybrid wolf :p:p:p... good things because it'will be great to have this look for my kennel ... it's a real honnor and compliment if yu think that .. but sorry if y couldn't satisfy yur curiosity in the good way ....... y hope yu wait very nice litter from miky ..(y love him too) and y do with velaskez (induk's son)a marriage ... y hope so.... future can say if y go in a good way ... best regards .. frank

Botis and Balrog only have silly differences in collor, they're pretty similar in body and are tipical CzW, all these differences we can wait for a normal litter, different of the litters mentioned here, where we see a suposed CzW with googles and other things that turn these dogs atipical even for the breed.
if you find a "honour" someone think your dogs are mixes, I think you need studie a little bit about " breed" and "selection" as actualise yourself about the problems CzW is passing.

hi paula.. how are yu??? y don't speak about this balrog .. but balrog de la louve blanche .. (in "B" litter) ...y show yu him for info ...

sorry paula but if yu don't find wolf mix are not nice it's just a difference from point of view .... y like this look so wolfish .. and it's my choice ... .. BUT don't like behaviour from this danderous mix with alsakan malamute etc .....but y reconize the really nice look from them ... best regards ...

Nebulosa, sorry I like wolfmixes and of course real wolves. But I love csw too. Franky, I am fine and thanks for the litter Myla and Miky. Ok, it seems that you wanted to make some avertisement for your kennel with different wolfcrosses but not with csw, I mean first litter of Ossa and Merlin. You did not answer why you first took pics from wolfhybrids in french internet side for selling dogs and than after some people ask why your are making marketing for the first litter of Ossa and Merlin with these pics you took the pics off? Ok, it is private everyone of us can make marketing how we like. It is for me no problem. And if you are lucky too have a puppy who is looking more like wolf, congratulation. So, from my side I don´t blame you, for me it is ok and I am happy for you!

Christian

than christian .. but y couldn't put away this pics .. because y don't have code to access in this servor .. it's an old annonce in 2006 ..(my first liiter ..) and this french guy keep it just to discredite my kennel .. really y don' t care abut him . but just jalousy ... if yu come to dog show in france or in europe y 'm glad to speak with yu to my point of yu .. sure y love the wolfish type and volos give me very good results actually .. y hope same with yarl'yanatos .... write me as soon as yur pupps are born .. because y m sure yu wait very wolfish type ... (trust me ... merlin and yurs have very god blood and with italian selection it will be the best combinasion...) best regards ..(y visit ometime yur web site and love the white and black wolwes on ..HUMMMMMMMMM a real pleasure for me to see them .. like when y m kid(7 years) and fall in love in paris's ZOO about an artik wolf female .. SNOW is her name and y visit he all sunday afternoon .. and stay one hour front her park /fr info ZOO is IN VINCENNES ...in 1972) f.

thirst word is THANKS ..'sorry tired )

And so?
Ach, changing the topic again... Are you inable to reply properlly without change the topic or have you serious problems with english interpretation?
Where I said here, in this topic if I like or not wolf hybrids?
We're talking about a dog breed called Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and the supposed introduction of mix blood in dogs with false register, this is a breed problem.
Hanninadina and Furyos, if your like wolf hybrids, wolves or any other dog breed does not matter, this didn't gave you the right to make mixes and register as CzW with false pedigree, surelly this isn't only a "point of view" question.

HI paula:):):) .. think WHAT YU WANT .. y m tired about yur Litlle strories ... Y DON'T CARE ...... THIS IS MY LAST RESPOND IN THIS TOPIC .. are yu understand this time MY ENGLISH BABE ;-);-)????? best regrads .. yur darling;-) frank

I know and i see in wolfdogs parents and children look similar. And in your kennel is not and some litter not look like parents. blasy/blue/boheme look like crying wolf and parents. and c litter is different. Not very much wolfdog and not crying wolf look. C'Pouchka is best example.

here is blue. for me real son of ossa and merlin
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/5/...42-3205994.jpg

and here is C'Pouchka. Sister to Blue.
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/11...23-4748502.jpg

do you see one thing who is same by C'Pouchka and Blue, merlin and ossa? because for me both dogs have nothing similar. Different colour, head, body and coat. Also Cyrcée is different as parents too. Different as b litter and parents.

Problem is for me Dream wolf not look WOLFISH but like mix like on american sites about wolfdog mixes. Same mask i see by italian mixes with canadian wolf because dog have goggles like your dog. why no dogs in crying wolf and by no other breeders wolfdog have goggles. only by you?

show me other wolfdog with googles like on this picture
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...13-6956046.jpg
mask and googles like some saarloos

Thank you for explanation. Now i see it is true what i see in photos and what also breeders in italy say about furyos litters. Because if people in germany see dogs of this litter and say dogs are not real czech wolfdog and german breeder is sure furyos make mixes for me it is clear too and i have no more question:roll:

HI LUPIS :) on the picture of Dream Wolf above, he is about 4 months old, so I do not think it is the right time of dogs age to judge what he will be like as grown up. so when he is all grown up and you still think he looks like a husky..*hihi* you can tell me..
Who are you? who are you to judge my dogs, I love my dogs,they are the best I have!
And I trust Frank, and just to prove you are all wrong I will take DNA test to prove Crying Wolf Volos is father to Dream Wolf.
I think this is really ridicoulus.
Take good care of your own dogs instead and give them all your time, and not put all your energy surfing on the net to blame other breeders.

Jenny ,Finland

Maybe in this foto above C'Pouchka have something similarity in exterior with Vorss? http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7424

-Suski

It is indeed very similar ;-)

Of course everybody can see the differences in the C litter.
But…… theoretical it is always possible to have different types in one litter.
Also in this data base you can find more examples of different types in one litter :rock_3

see for example Iary and Icky:

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Inc...o_del_Lupo.jpg

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ick...o_del_Lupo.jpg

I believe the father can be Volos.. but the mother? You can proof that th emother is really her.. but is her a pure CzW?
That's the question.

I'm sorry you trusth Frank, I will never trusth a breeder that have such actitud.


If you see hole litter have some little differences, biggest difference in Iary is the coat, you can find some pbrothers with differents coat leght, but look the body and head, is pretty similar to all brothers and sisters, as they all have at little bit of tipicity for the breed at least.

The two dogs bellow from "de la Louve Blanche" kennel have a Coefficient of Relationship of 49%, this is very huge from genetical POV... as you can see :rock_3

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/phot...8e3b38e3b3.jpg

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Dem...ve_Blanche.jpg

What is the name of the blond dog in the upper picture?
Is it in the Databace?

EDIT: OK, I found it myself :)
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11409

This one is also a half sibling then..?
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/5/...61-5932879.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10636

Exactly.
We have tons of "weird" things from this "line"...

In other words these two dogs are supposedly almost as closely related as half siblings, huh? :rock_3

Wouldn't that be full siblings? As full siblings can share from 0 to 100 DNA, than the average is 50% for full siblings. Half-sibling can share maximum 50% DNA, in average 25%.

No wonder about the anomalies by this kennel. If someone is mixing American Wolfdogs he will take exactly such "strange" results which are the best prove for the cheated pedigrees.

As it seems some people in France are incredibly interested to hide the truth and avoid the OFFICIAL DNA parentage tests I post the same post as I published on the French forum.

I know that the title is hard but it is also true... SAD but true. This time it is 100% serious - it do not base on the "different look on the photos" but on the facts. First time I received an email about it I ignored it - I didn't believe that somebody would be so crazy to break the FCI rules and cheat the pedigrees. But now the proves are in the front of your eyes.

I was explaining why so many people from different countries were complaining to put the words MIX next to the all "wolfish" and "untypical" dogs. I listed all their arguments like untypical look, bodies, heads, masks, size, expressions... Even people who were "simple owners" knew that something is "stinking". Now we have people who are prepared to sign their words ON A PAPER when your kennel club will ask for witnesses.

As you for sure know in Europe there are several breeders and owners of American Wolfdogs (usually Malamute/Husky/German Shepherds/Tundra Wolf mixes). And exactly such wolfdogs were used to make the "wolfish" looking Wolfdogs in France. AND exactly it is the reason why there are more and more TOTALLY UNTYPICAL Wolfdogs born in your country: First generations (CsW x American Wolfdog) are pretty nice - not typical for our breed but nice. But in the next generation the genes divide and make in many cases such totally untypical GSD-Husky looking dogs like the half-sister of Demoniak. Simply said: the nice wolfish dogs and the strange mixes are nothing also as TOTAL MUTTS: CsW-Husky-Malamute-Germans Shepherd-Tundra Wolf Mixes... Or shorter said: THEY ARE NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS.

But back to the facts:

- C-litter de la Louve Blanche
We have wittiness and the confirmation of the American Wolfdog owner that the French breeder covered his female with his stud dog Unca Southern Breeze . We do not know if the all litter are mixes or the female Ossa CRying Wolf was covered by two males - Merlin AND Unca. Or the whole litter comes from Unca. But FOR 100% Ckinay and C'Pouschka are the children of the mentioned American Wolfdog:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_m1cD5Tly1t...600/Uncas1.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_m1cD5Tly1t...ncas1619kl.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m1cD5Tly1t...asDiana1kl.JPG

- D-litter de la Louve Blanche
We know that the male Volos Crying Wolf covered an American Wolfdog female. The owner of the female is unreachable - no wonder: he is the friend of the French breeder. What we do not know if it apply to the whole litter or only some puppies come from the American Wolfdog.

This is not everything as there is a huge possiblity (and because there are more dogs comming from this kennel showing untypical characterustics) that there are more litters cheated like this. And more dogs can have fake parents in the pedigree.


What is our goal: WE ASK THE FRENCH BREEDERS TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM AND THE FRENCH KENNEL CLUB TO MAKE FINALLY THE DNA TESTS.
We suggest to test CPouschka as first (because her parents are still alive - at least we hope they will not "disappear" or "die" after this post) - we know for 100% that she is daughter of Unca and the DNA test will prove it. If you need any written statement of someone who will confirm it - we have such people. I hope it will convince you that very bad things are going on here.

congratulations;-);-);-) >> new version movie in kennel lalouve blanche .. after saarloos/nordik dog and pure wolf .... NOW american wolfdog in blood line ... when chihuahua???>>> WAOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU i love the anonumous admin >>> colombo have a lot of work to do the same ... just ONE WORD ... thanks for your NICE PUBLICITY ,,, 3 reservation today for my next litter after your topic in france and here .. welcom dear admin ... :lol::lol::lol::lol: your franky for your life....take care and best regards from essaouirra (maroco)

No problem. Now we wait for the official DNA tests. There is no doubt that the dogs are mixes. It will be sad for the new owners to see "Saarloos alike MIX" in the near future by their dogs.

For the buyers: they really do not know that such mixes they can easy get for a much lower price?

Anyway: do you really think that CsW breeders are idiots who can be cheated? Do you think that there is even one experienced breeder who will believe it that THIS DOG is a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/6/...99-4222783.jpg

Ooooppps - I found by the kennel of American Wolfdogs exactly almost the same looking dog:

http://www.wolfhybrids.com/Hollywood/Hollywood4.jpg

Really mister or miss president ADMIN:roll::roll:>> you think really we want do or try to do any collaboration with nazi like YOU ???? sorry i m free and nobody scare me >>> Y DON T CARE ABOUT YOU OR YOUR POLITIK of dicrimination ... because i know exactly my work and your jalousy is a real problem but just FOR YOU ... have a nice week darling >> and ENORMOUS KISSES :lol::lol::lol: ... ( Ps / you have to live beetween 1914 and 1945 this is YOUR PLACE )

Good - so I see you will have nothing against asking the SCC to make OFFICIAL commission which will clear this case and that you will support our tries to test the parentage of your dogs starting with CPouchka. We count with your cooperation when they will try to take the blood of the both "parents" of this female. And help by taking the blood of the questioned dogs.

Good.

scc is not you my DEAR ... HAHHAHAH

i dont understand... if it is not true, then why not prove it wrong and clear the kennel name? :?

Why are you so afraid? If the litters are ok and the pedigrees are not cheated you have nothing to worry about.
On the contrary - YOU should be the first person who should help French people to make the DNA tests of the suspicious dogs from your kennel.

dear Frank I sale to You one CSV female - and I hope You mate she ( with all DM HD ED tests) with PURE CSV if NOT - I please admin put all shes puppy in MIX category when they not be pure csv

Do You think realy and I am stupid? and not saw a BIG diferent in dogs?
Maybe You make with this mixes a monkey bisnes, but believe - not all people believe in this nice fairytale who You and Your pack want a tale.

Still i Waite answer.... for my email Admin!

Satu, who doesn´t have any dogs in my home from that kennel

Well, I am sure you asked but you still know the answer :lol:
Because this "breeder" wanted to be smarter then these stupid ones who still breed pure CsW :lol:

hi everybody ... this is MY last answer on this topic >>> LISTEN TO ME ..... everything you can say / do or imagine to discredite my work find this finality>>>>>>> I DON T CARE ..... is it CLEAR enougth for you ???... i know exactly my work and my way ... i don t need any help from you and 2 years ago i stop all informations from my kennel and some friends and clients do the same ... your database is over and you can write MIX or what do you want on all my puppies ... i repeat for everybody ....>>> I DON T CARE :lol::lol::lol: .... best regards and really good reflexion ... F

I didn't know until today that there was some special 'way' to breed pedigreed dogs besides putting together a chosen receptive female together with a chosen male of the same breed together.

Well, yukidomari, you live and learn...

Could somebody explain what this means? Just curious... :?

What a sad attitude. :(

very sad when with this worts You baned alls Yours dogs, when You agree "they are a MIX" and make antireklama too others french dogs too.
frank better maker new breed - furyos multidogs - can have better bisnes and moore moeny and can easy make all litters and no have head pain with this "stupid and idiot " wolfdog people
Realy good idea- think about this. All be happy and You and You comand and others who love and care about pure CSV

Originally posted by furyos :
"Really mister or miss president ADMIN:roll::roll:>> you think really we want do or try to do any collaboration with nazi like YOU ???? sorry i m free and nobody scare me >>> Y DON T CARE ABOUT YOU OR YOUR POLITIK of dicrimination ... because i know exactly my work and your jalousy is a real problem but just FOR YOU ... have a nice week darling >> and ENORMOUS KISSES :lol::lol::lol: ... ( Ps / you have to live beetween 1914 and 1945 this is YOUR PLACE )"

What complete silly and selfdiscrediting gossip!

That's "Hollywood"...if you look very closely, you will see "Hollywood" is in a pack with "Puff"...very similar in coloration to Erha. :?

http://wolfhybrids.com/Ourgals.htm
http://wolfhybrids.com/Ourguys.htm

But don't forget, we now have Southern Breeze Europe (google gave me warning that this site might harm your computer - I have a Mac, so had no problems, but please use caution...)
www.southernbreeze-europe.com/

Franck, It would however be so simple to play the game of tests DNA so indeed you are the quiet aware…. :roll:

I wonder how would an honest breeder, who has always followed the FCI/AKC breeding principles react/behave if somebody accused him/her of breeding mixes or faking pedigrees...:?

I imagine the first reaction would be anger, but what would be the next step? Ignore the accusations? Take the case to the Kennel Club or to court ? Make the DNA tests of the dogs/pups and ...pay for them?

I'm trying to figure out what would be the most pragmatic and psychologically rational reaction to such accusation:|

That reminds me at the "Tour de France" (what a coincidence;)), where all the athletes especially the winners claiming not been on Clenbuterol or other substances.
And of course the positive blood tests lie, they're all honest athletes...
All these slanderers.
By the way, in Heigenbrücken/Germany where Franck took part at the club show with the above mentioned dogs my friend Sona Bognárova and I realized instantly that dogs where American wolfdog crosses.
It's all too visible.

Michael

So just a question to you Mr Frank, if you know your work and are sure your dogs are pure, way not just do the DNA test and slam it up the admins face :p ???

Best regards / Mikael

I only bean accused for having a F1 Hybrid mix ones, I asked him to call the police and I would wait right there, I also had pedigree copy that I did show him, but he did say the paper was a fake and he was not stupid :lol:
It was Swedens biggest holiday ( Midsummer ), so he did say the police will not come all the way out to us in the archipelago, but he was not stupid, he knew it was a F1 Hybrid ;) At this point it was over 30 people looking how this would end, and the man was drunk and angery... I was calm and had not bean drinking at all, so when I did take up my id for him to write of the id number he desided to walk away :lol: still very very agery...

But in Sweden, we are accused from the begining by the Swedish Kennel Club, we MUST DNA test all Cs Vlcaks and Saarloos to get the pure FCI pedigree ;) No other dog breeds need to do that...

Very best regards / Mikael

It's called Godwin law and it's not the first time I've seen it here.

"there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress." - Wikipedia

It really works as we can see in this topic. :lol:

Great! And here we can confirm that you sell your pups to everyone who have the childish dream of have his pet wolf to show off to its friends, people who doesn't care for ethics and does not have common sense, not much different of the breeder as we can see here.

Really amazing, after all you win some money selling the dogs and if the animal be abandoned, killed (quite common due the bad character) or pass his entire life suffering with an genetical issue, it's not your problem.


No one would even care if you did only mixes and sold them like this, the main problem is that you made fakes pedigrees, you cheated. No wonder, pedigree dogs are more expensive and the owner can even go to dogshows, win some titles with judges which have no idea of how to judge the breed and believe that his mutts are an standarded dog of the breed czechoslovakian wolfdog.

I would like to see you laughting when people enter against your "new way of breeding" at FCI and SCC. Admin is not SCC or FCI, but there are several breeders worldwide which would love to have your head for try to destruct their beloved breed, myself included.
I dont know how can you sleep at night, knowing you're trying to destruct an historical breed like CzW which you was suposed to protect and love. But the worst, you're burning your reputation not only as breeder but as person, and all that for NOTHING.

Playing with lives for money.

Deplorable.

Seems I've found the brother of my new czechoslovakian wolfdog at French forum :lol:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/719...ovakianwol.jpg

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1126/unca2.jpg

:fingers1 Very high resemblance!

PS. But I think your dog has more handsome, very typical, goggles and mask...

Let's be honest, we all know that at least the "C" and "D" litter de la Louve Blanche is a fraud.
And it's finally in the forum.
All I can say, don't let them ( Franck, Sophie, kennel Sun Gifu and, and, and...) off the hook.
One of the advantages of the www. is transparency.

Michael

What is the status of wolf x dog crosses (or "wolf hybrids" for clarification, though the term is incorrect for a mix of two Canis Lupus sub species) in FRANCE ? Are they illegal / banned like in UK and Scandinavia for example?
-This would maybe explain why some breeders are trying to use the FCI recognized wolfdog breeds as a safe (but unethical and wrong!) way to own and breed illegal wolf crosses...
Apparently they just don't stop to think about what might happen to the breeds they put at risk while doing so... they might get banned too after the public starts to realize what is going on and looses their respect for the breeds... :(

And for the view of making money with pedigree dogs, I have to say that I don't think this is worth for the risk of putting these FCI breeds in danger and so digging the ground under own feet, as there are several relatively new "design breeds" that have a higher price than pure bred dogs (even the wolfdog breed). So if someone wnats to make money out of wolfy dogs, they don't need the FCI recognition for that.

It's not bad... if such requirement existed in other countries there wouldn't be problem with breeding mixes now. Well, unless the tests were conducted honestly ;)

I don't think Frank realizes how much harm he's doing to all honest French breeders by refusing 'DNA confrontation'. Many good owners/breeders (not the wolf maniacs!;)) from other countries, who aren't particularly knowledgeable in lines, pedigrees, standard, kennels, etc., but who want a typical, pure bred CSV might give up buying a French pup just to be on the safe side :(
It would be a pity - I rememeber after visiting French club show Margo and Daiva wrote on the Polish WD there were some interesting breeding dogs desceding from ancestors imported to France years ago. The lines which 'disappeared' in the the Czech Republic and Slovakia but survived in France might be valuable for breed diversification now. Provided foreign breeders are not afraid to use them now... :(

Hybrids are not leagal for common owner. If you want to own an hybride or a pure wolf you need to obtain an "ability certificate"...

Arrêté du 19 mai 2000: http://www.loup.org/jo_19_07.htm

Bing Translator:
S. 1.-the detention of live Wolves of the species Canis lupus, including hybrid individuals whose recent ancestry includes a Wolf, is subject to prefectural authority pursuant to article l. 212 - 1 of the rural code.
With the exception of persons holding wolves at the entry into force of this order, only establishments for breeding or presentation to the public of non-domestic animals receiving an authorization to open in application of articles l. 213 - 3 and l. 213 - 4 of the rural code can obtain such authorization.
Permission is granted for a maximum of five years, which can be renewed at the express request of the beneficiary.
When it allows the hosting of wolves, authorization of opening of the institution, issued pursuant to article l. 213 - 3 of the rural code, is detention authorization in respect of this order.
By way of derogation from the provisions of article 3B of the Decree of 17 April 1981 referred to above, approval of detention is authorization to transport the animals held.
The authorization must be presented whenever the administration officers referred to in article l. 215 - 5 of the rural code.

S. 3 - The detention authorization is not granted if the following conditions are met:
-the animals have a lawful origin;
-the place of accommodation is designed and equipped to meet the physiological needs of the species;
-the applicant has skills ensuring that animals will be treated with care;
-the prevention of risk to safety of the applicant, the security and tranquillity of the third party, to the introduction into the natural environment of wolves, the transmission of human or animal diseases is ensured.


S. 4 - Except for establishments rearing or presentation to the public of non-domestic animals receiving an authorization to open allowing them to maintain wolves, leave prefectural wolves, issued by order, detention may be granted only for specimens present at the date of publication of this order; the reproduction and the replacement of animals are prohibited; for incidental reproduction, the young are, within the period of three months after their birth, transferred to an institution for breeding or presentation to the public of animals of species not servants allowed to host wolves.


S. 5 - Permission States including:
-the duration of the authorisation and the terms of renewal;
-the maximum number of animals which may be held;
-the characteristics which will need to meet animals detention facilities.
Authorization requires the holding by the recipient of a register of entries and exits of animals which appear, for each animal, sex, age or date of birth, identification number, the date of entry and of exit, the name and address of the holder of origin and the destination. The registry must be filled in each input or output operation.

I think it is visible even more since the breeder feels untouchable by the French kennel club and cheats more and more pedigrees. There is already no doubt that he is producing AWD with CsW pedigrees. It is a fact - also this "athlete" use Clenbuterol. A LOT OF IT...

I think we can easily put ALL de la Louve Blanche dogs as MIXES (since it is not known which are purebreed and which one are mixes - or better said: we have no idea if there are still at least some dogs which are PUREBREED there). Not in the database but in our minds - he is cheating the pedigrees. It is sure. So the whole name of this kennel, all pedigrees coming from this kennel and all kennels using his dogs are worth NOTHING. They are just useless piece of paper....

The issue with dalmatians is that that 100% of them have some genetic issue (kidney failure?) and back in the late 70's or 80's the crossed in one generation of another breed and it cured them of this issue.

Even now, the dogs from that project, even though 99.99% dalmatian are not allowed to be registered as a dalmatian. The reason being is because the majority of the club don't want their advantage taken away. Allowing these dogs in would be a huge benefit and make the breed healthier.

It can go either way. It all depends on how the majority of the club members (or officers?) feel.

Yet other "breeds" thrive on being mixes and want to get acceptance (Inuits) or want their own selective breeding program to be it's own breed (Shiloh Shepherds).

Other times mixed litters are born and paper work is falsified. I know of a malinois / Dutch Shepherd litter but the "breeder" sold them all off as pure malinois (he even got someone who is very well known to sign off on the paperwork so they could get them registered as pure).

Its getting harder to even tell if "purebreds" if they real purebreds or not. :(

Very soon it will be very very easy, in 10 years of time we will probably have DNA test on every litter on every breed :rock_3

Very best regards / M

Lol...AKC already registers these dogs - we call them "All American Dogs", Jing. We only need to give them breeding rights.

Congrats goes to the AKC then! But they must modify the name... surely these "All American Dogs" have equal fans in other countries and an arguable claim in this breed's foundation.

Hi Sasha,

can't you get someone of the SKJ having a chat with the FCI guys.
I know that Mr Stefik has quite a lot of influence in the FCI.
It could be organized through the Slovakian club, since Slovakia is the garant of the breed...

Michael

Yes good idea Michael, chat with FCI, French club CBEI, SCC ......

Why not speak about this at the world dog show ..... :rock_3

I'll bring this topic to the attention of the club. I hope Oskar and Stefik will think something out. But remember the problems we had with Mutaras? This might turn out the same way.

No, it is something totally different. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Mutaras were registered in Italy on the official way. Maybe it is moral not correct and maybe the Italian judges were wrong registering them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and not "Saarloos wolfhounds" but the dogs were registered according the FCI rules (telling about the registries). It is why it was not possuble to remove the pedigrees of the dogs. But also why we can easily follow all the Saarloos_CsW mixes living and bred in Italy.

What apply by Italian dogs is the European law about the protected speces and wild dangerous animals saing that for keeping the F1-F4 mixes you nee special permissions.

French case is something totally different. The hybrids are not put in the register but they were registered thanks to CHEATING - with falsification of the FCI pedigrees. And it IS breaking of the FCI regulations and a FRAUD. FCI and SCC must do anything with it if they want to keep their reliability. If they will ignore this case NONE of the FCI pedigrees can be taken serious as it would show that you can fabricate the pedigrees and nobody by SCC or FCI cares for it.

Second: in some cases the animals are F1 and F2 which are forbiden to keep without any permissions. So it is also breaking of the European Union law for keeping of the wild animals (it was already mentioned here).

So, Frank...

Will you test your dogs or not :? ???

It is a yes and no question, but can be very hard to answer anyway :p
But I hope you will give it a try...

Very best regards / Mikael

I wonder if it really is legal to write stuff like this without any proof to put on table, and why does not some higher instance then clear this out once for all, I think nobody here ever will be able to find out the truth by discussing who looks like what, that is no proof, sorry I find this little bit sad ?
I mean who are anybody of us to judge, somebody that writing peolpe here maybe not have seen, met or spoken to, I find this a thread that should be closed.


And Admin, I have Golden Eye son of Blood's Lykan. I'm very sad to read this, saarloos? He has excellent open caracter, and he is puppy, you can not from pictures say how he will be when adult.
And first of all you stole my pictures from facebook or someplace of him. Then I put up own, and you IMMEDIATELY try to find some fault with him. To talk about Frank even more. Please find out eveidence to show us before writing stuff like this. I suppose it is easy on a world wide forum to write stuff, but I think it is also sad of grown up people.

And Gabyäne, that you have put like sister to Golden Eye, are you sure she is from same litter :) If owner not put up the facts, because I do not know but she looks more like like from the other litter to mee, Frank had other litter too.

Well have a nice midsummer everybody, I will spend it with my dogs !!

This is my last post forever on this site. I find all discussions here really crazy...

Jenny
www.foreverwolf.nettisivu.org

Please read the topic one more time. There are already people who have proves that de La Louve blanche use American Wolfdogs and mix them with CsW. Several specialist judges say openly the same - that some of the dogs by the mentioned kennel are not purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. It is what we all can see very easy.

But nobody want only to TALK about it. And to accuse anybody but IT MUST BE STOPED and the problem MUST BE SOLVED. Several French breeders already complained that they used the "suspicious dogs" and not they are not sure if their puppies are purebreed or not. Only because someone is cheatng the pedigrees it has influence on the WHOLE French population. And not only French.
Over and over again we ask the French kennel club to start testing and to remove the mutts (take away the pedigrees of the dogs which are CSW-AWD-mixes).

Believe me - we all have the same goals. We want to be sure that every CsW with the FCI pedigree is a CSW and that the parents listed in the pedigree are real parents of this dog. I hope the official DNA tests will be done as soon as possible and the whole problem will be solved as soon as possible.

But why do you complain Backman?
You dont' know your dog is a mix?Have you find in him a little think of Ashoka,Voice,Amore Mio or Arys ?

Destroy your fake pedigree and nobody will haunt more you and your strange mix dogs

You invoked the law and fairness and then you disappear dogs and entered the mix dogs in their place

I am glad that wolfdog.org is finally opening his eyes

I'm ready if you need, to offer all the support in the future for any economic and legal proceedings,and I am deeply grateful to you for the task of unmasking these impostors

The situation in Italy is extremely worrying, and I hope that the italian club instead of commenting and make compliments to mix on facebook will finally decides to act and do something

think that a baby mix coming from France, and arrived here a few weeks ago, has already many pre-reservations from (well know) italian breeders

but above all for a great effect emulation (great breeders who use mix and selling their dogs to stratospheric price), and saw the unexplained silence of italian club, I assure you that many are starting to use "contaminations" in consideration of the large marketability of these mixes and the morphology incredibly similar to the wolf

Thanks admin.
The time was overdue to bring up this topic.
As soon as I'm back from the South of France, I hopefully can provide you with some new facts.

Dear Ms Bäckman,
I've been working with wolves and dogs on a professional basis for 20 years now.
As well as breeding CSW's for quite a while. We had our M-litter born last December.
Don't try to fool me. I see what I see and know what it (not) is...
Regarding to your website you're a CSW breeder, no honest CSW breeder ever would start breeding with a "de la Louve Blanche" dog from the C-litter onwards.
So either you're stupid or a cheat.
If you're the first I herewith apologize humbly.

Michael

Where are you in the South of France? I live near Marseille and I suggest you seeing my bitch Darwen de la louve blanche to make you an idea in really and not in photo if she is or not a mix.


You can see at the same time the new son of Erik Nanook.

Best time for you admin to do it. it was so long time wait you to write posts. only idiots not see that furyos mixes american tundra wolfdog. idiots or people blind.

before 3 years hanninadina write that furyos sell hybrids with CLC pedigrees - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...60&postcount=8 on webite was video of hybrid with puppies

2008 i write that he produce mixes like mutara: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9708

and same now about mixes in finalnd: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...54&postcount=8

very much wating for you to make something. but i hope you will stop cheaters. I know many write bad words but you not wonder. they run big cheaters bussiness. and breeding for money not for breed. is why they scream of you.

i not understand people like you. you know furyos make shit with this breed but you buy next puppy frrom same kennel? next mix and breed new mixes?
you breed CLC. if you not blind you see dog from louve blanche are strange mixes. not wolfdogs.

I'm near Brignoles/Var.
Where are you based?

Michael

I live in Martigues, if you want we can meet in Aix en Provence or Marseille, it is between 2 cities.

You might be 100% right Lupis, but it kind of is hard to act on so caled (fakt´s) coming from somebody that do not even dare to put he´s own name on it :rock_3

Very best regards / Mikael

Yes, as I did say it is a hard one to answer ;-)

And what might be the reasan for that :? ??? Hmmmm...

Best regards / Mikael

I have to laugh or cry? Strangely one week ago when I asked in our very expensively admin for the precise charges has comment of my dog and the precise information about the tests to be made, he never answered.

Especially when it has was proved that darwen is real girl of volos and in comparison of the tests on my dogs with the charges. The presence of a video and photos of the D to litter when it had 10 days.

So very strangely, when we have some concrete : documents, videos and photos opposite have that points of view. I want the real proofs: signed and dated documents, videos, photos and not only opinions of a group of ewes behind a person who hides meanly. I’m quénée tommy (France) owner of devil Grey, proud of the being until proved otherwise. Come on at home when you want.

Just for you Remind the memory I name Margo peron and Daiva Rimaityte ( LT) and suggest you seeing of what they think of our dogs. Look at the place of dogs is saying mix.


http://www.wolfdog.org/fra/shows/3293.html


so you see it is simple : a name followed by a document, have a little of courage.

Later it is the true also, I indicated that the one who had twists for Grey had to pay the tests (I or admin). When I speak about subjective there are a lot of people to answer, when it is necessary to trust in its statements and to play in the yard of the big I meet in front of a big space.

I would answer to the people who prove me their statements, the others who are only speaking or hiding goodbye.

To finish, it must be good for the FCI of knowledge for you, it is only an organization of incompetent. Because judges from their home made multi-champions with mixes (several countries with judges of several countries). You the big experts, it’s going to need to think of creating a school for them.

In the end why to want to put the pedigrees to the trash because the organization which confirms them is incompetent?

Ps: I always wait for my answers of the admin or martial ribouret for more than a week!

why in this ring I not see dogs like demoniak or and others similar dogs? Maybe they know - better not go with this dogs in ring? I realy very, very wait for this dogs in my ring.

and CACS have typical CSV dogs, not Volos or others dogs if You better read a results.

Judge MAS anatomy not purity in show- see diferent? I know dogs who not are CSV with pedigree but have better anatomy like a few dogs who are in first place, organizator who organize show MAS checking dogs purity and put in show only pure dogs, this not are judge problem but organizator.

sory, but if You read a judge reglaments You maybe speak others, but I understand to big problem make this.

Judge not have in his eyes DNA tester for gens, Judge mas judge anatomy not genetic, and if read moore in WD forum You can see - this problem go up now when this dogs have puppy with females who are to much strange too. Maybe better read about Mendels principe in genetic. I think this help You too understand moore about this all- about dogs anatomy and diferents in generation who we and have now.

and ... why I not mate with males from this "strange" dogs list? maybe this are antswer too.

I very good understand You, now You have a stress, when maybe Your dog not are pure dog, but WHY not want explain all this with test, but make big bla bla.

as it was said before - daiva is a fci judge, she is obliged to judge every dog having fci documents regardless of her own ideas about the breed...

Wolfin what do you think about this bitch, pure, mix or saarloos mix???

http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2011/06/26.286.jpg

http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2011/06/26.287.jpg

make DNA parents and grandparents - laboratory say who is who. If want to judgement from my -please coming in ring when I judge.

p.s. but I not want a buy this female puppy- not be angry :)

You have already judged this bitch, 2nd excellent.